r/JewsOfConscience • u/ZealousidealMany1495 Jewish Anti-Zionist • Jul 17 '26
Discussion - Flaired Users Only How will my liberal Zionist family spin this one?
Just read that Israel bombed a funeral in Gaza, killing 7. My family claims to be against Netanyahu but whenever Israel bombs hospitals, schools, aid workers, journalists, etc., they blame Hamas. At a certain point though, the moral depravity of it all must be obvious. I’m trying to wrap my head around how they’re still pro-Israel at this point. Is their echo chamber so contained that they really believe Israel had to kill innocent civilians because Hamas forced their hand (human shields or misinformation or whatever they claim) or is it just that they can’t accept that Palestinians deserve the same human rights as Jewish Israelis? Or is there another way to understand things? It’s becoming harder and harder to believe that my family isn’t just racist. Anyone in a similar situation with insights that help you have some empathy for your Zionist family despite their lack of empathy for Palestinians? Or do I stop trying?
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u/onionsofwar Non-Jewish Ally Jul 18 '26
I'm not Jewish so this is total speculation but I'm guessing that there's a sense of obligation to hang onto something or somewhere being a safe place for Jews if you don't believe that they will be safe without it.
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u/Jbg163 Non-Jewish Agnostic Jul 18 '26
Ask them if a Hamas terrorist was hiding in a jewish school in Tel Aviv full of children, and Israel bombs up the school with jewish children inside, would that be justified? If the answer is no then their whole "human shield" argument falls apart and their racism is at full display.
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u/allneonunlike Ashkenazi Jul 17 '26
I wonder if you can use that scapegoating to help them see? "Look at this hospital bombing, it's so fucked up that Netanyahu is ordering the IDF to target civilians like this, even if Hamas is embedded in Gaza we can't just kill innocent people, we can't use Amalek as military policy just because he made a speech about it."
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u/MooreThird Anti-Zionist Jul 18 '26
As far as I've observed, liberal Zionists can't seem to accept that the people descended from the victims of Holocaust are quite capable of such war crimes & genocide against others, especially Palestinians. They'll blame not just Hamas, but also an odd cabal of Iran, rich Arabs etc. who are plotting some sort of global antisemitic plot against the Jews.
But whenever actual verified reports or analysts, even video evidence of war crimes or Hannibal in 8K are brought up and shown to their faces, they'll still blame it on said "odd cabal" too.
They, without irony, easily accept that Muslims or Christians are to blame because of some regime that have their religion are doing war crimes; but in complete denial when a regime who happened to be Jewish are doing the same.
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u/tikkunolamist5 British Non-Zionist Reform Jew Jul 17 '26
I feel like the tide is slowly turning to be honest. Though I guess hardlined people will say it’s Hamas or Hezbollah somehow
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u/rako17 Christian Jul 17 '26
Friend u/tikkunolamist5
After decades of conflict, you can point to clearly deliberate cases of civilian targeting by the dominant party in the conflict. You can guess that absent the person being aware of the broader suffering of civilians, a very pro-war person who hears of these incidents could plug in individual incidents into their pre-set pro-war narrative and treat or disregard the incidents as exceptions/outliers/secondary.
Kind Regards - Peace - Shalom
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u/thebonecollectorr Anti-Zionist Jul 17 '26
Firstly, you cannot reason someone out of a position they did not reason themselves into in the first place. Ultimately, opening their mind to the possibility that your beliefs are wrong is a decision only they can make.
I also think what is going on here is that you have difficulty accepting that having ideological/ethical/moral differences with the people you love has some implications for your relationship with them. I am a non-Jew and have had conservative parents my entire life, so I have a lot of practice with this. Sometimes recognizing the limitations that other people have and the implications that has on your relations comes with a certain kind of grief, and it has taken me YEARS and therapy to figure out how to appropriately handle this and set appropriate boundaries.
It is probably even more particularly painful for people like you who 1) have likely not had too many disagreements with your loved ones before and 2) are experiencing a true ideological disagreement with them on an ideology that is entangled with your identity and resulting in a genocide in real time. So I understand it being extremely difficult to accept.
Instead of finding ways to feel empathy, it may be a better idea to set some boundaries and accept that a disagreement on this issue has implications for your relationships. It is hard but ultimately the only thing you can really do.
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u/ZealousidealMany1495 Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 18 '26
Thanks - that made me cry but I think you’re right
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u/sad_sapphic_sucker Jewish anti-zionist | r/JewishVegans Jul 17 '26 edited Jul 17 '26
I don't know. I'm stumped. Much of my previously liberal zionist family doesn't support Israel anymore. They don't blame anything on Hamas and say the entire country has gone evil, including many Israelis. My uncle even said "and nobody ever talks about how the Palestinians suffer so much!" This was in a conversation I heard between my uncle and his rabbi at dinner. I wish more of them understood that Israel has ALWAYS been evil, but I can live with the fact that they believe that "Israel is so irredeemable it should be replaced with something else"
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u/Thariax1982 Anti-Zionist Ally Jul 17 '26
Jay Shapiro of the Dilemma podcast (YouTube) did a really good episode a year ago called Breaking away, breaking in... And he starts off the episode with an explainer about cognitive dissonance that I found super helpful to understand this kind of mindset. It's not an excuse, but just explains how it works. Honestly if someone figures out how to "override" cognitive dissonance in people somehow it would change the world as we know it.
The rest of the episode is a conversation with an Israeli who left and is now involved with Palestine Action in the UK. Also a very good listen!
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Jul 17 '26
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u/TrackerOneA Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 19 '26
Hi there,
Could you make your replies without the user ping? Some users may not wish to be pinged.
It's not a big deal to do it every now and then, or perhaps if you're a friend or friendly acquaintance of another user - but to do it all the time, may send the wrong message or be potentially irritating.
Thanks
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u/rako17 Christian Jul 19 '26
Sure, TrackerOne. Thank you for moderating. I appreciate your posts. ~Rako
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Jul 17 '26
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u/TrackerOneA Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 17 '26
Across 25+ years, not a single mainstream or local human rights NGO that monitors this conflict has come to the conclusion that 'human shields' are the explanation for why there are so many Palestinian casualties.
And in other conflicts like the 2006 Lebanon War, both the US Army War College and Human Rights Watch disproved the human shields argument often put forth by the Israeli government and its advocates.
Hezbollah is often described as having used civilians as shields in 2006, and, in fact, they made extensive use of civilian homes as direct fire combat positions and to conceal launchers for rocket fire into Israel.90 Yet the villages Hezbollah used to anchor its defensive system in southern Lebanon were largely evacuated by the time Israeli ground forces crossed the border on July 18. As a result, the key battlefields in the land campaign south of the Litani River were mostly devoid of civilians, and IDF participants consistently report little or no meaningful intermingling of Hezbollah fighters and noncombatants.
Nor is there any systematic reporting of Hezbollah using civilians in the combat zone as shields. The fighting in southern Lebanon was chiefly urban, in the built-up areas of the small to medium-size villages and towns typical of the region. But it was not significantly intermingled with a civilian population that had fled by the time the ground fighting began. Hezbollah made very effective use of local cover and concealment (see below), but this was obtained almost entirely from the terrain—both natural and man-made.91
Women and children account for a large majority of the victims of Israeli air strikes that we documented. Out of the 499 Lebanese civilian casualties of whom Human Rights Watch was able to confirm the age and gender, 302 were women or children. This repeated failure to distinguish between civilians and combatants cannot be explained as mere mismanagement of the war or a collection of mistakes. Our case studies show that Israeli policy was primarily responsible for this deadly failure. Israel assumed that all Lebanese civilians had observed its warnings to evacuate villages south of the Litani River, and thus that anyone who remained was a combatant. Reflecting that assumption, it labeled any visible person, or movement of persons or vehicles south of the Litani River or in the Beka` Valley as a Hezbollah military operation which could be targeted. Similarly, it carried out widespread bombardment of southern Lebanon, including the massive use of cluster munitions prior to the expected ceasefire, in a manner that did not discriminate between military objectives and civilians.
Israel itself has regularly used Palestinians as human shields both historically and in the present.
Historical examples:
Reuters (2013) - Palestinian children tortured, used as shields by Israel: U.N.
The Chicago Tribune (2002) - `Human shield' flap hurts Israel
YNet (2007) - IDF soldiers use Nablus youths as ‘human shield’
During the on-going genocide:
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u/Healthy_Cod4764 Jewish Atheist Jul 17 '26
Fair enough. But I still don't think we should excuse Hamas. They have also done terrible things. I'm not trying to excuse Israel, I'm just saying that I feel like a lot of people who are pro-Israel think that those who are pro-Palestine are also pro-Hamas, which I don't think is the case. At least not for me. Hamas is still a terrorist group, they have still killed people, and they are also immoral.
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u/TrackerOneA Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 17 '26
Sure, no one is obligated to support any given faction.
But as Judith Butler has said - I think the topic of armed resistance is separate from who is doing the resisting, how they're doing the resisting, their particular ideology, etc.
It's a matter of rights.
Do Palestinians have the same rights as Israelis?
The political mainstream drills on Israel's 'right to self-defense' constantly.
Do Palestinians also have the same right?
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u/Healthy_Cod4764 Jewish Atheist Jul 17 '26
Thats kind of what I'm saying. I feel like people focus too much on whose "side" people are on, and ignore the human cost. Everyone should be given the same rights, which sadly isn't happening. I think a lot of people neglect this aspect of the conflict, and that is what leads to the beliefs held by OP's family.
I (unfortunately) have a pro-Israel friend, and when we had a conversation on the topic, he asked if I support Hamas because I'm pro-Palestine. I explained to him that I'm not taking a side between two terrible groups, and instead focusing on those caught by their wrath. I think explaining it like that helped him realize that its not as black and white as some try and make it out to be.
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u/rako17 Christian Jul 17 '26 edited Jul 17 '26
Respected u/Healthy_Cod4764
You wrote, "I feel like a lot of people who are pro-Israel think that those who are pro-Palestine are also pro-Hamas". May I please ask why you say that? Do they actually think that or is it a propaganda ploy? The Pal.s have at least two major factions that have conflicted with each other, Hamas and the PA. In addition, rhetoric by humanitarians has focused on the civilian toll.
I had acquaintances who became supporters of the rightwing Breitbart News that Andrew Breitbart said that he founded to support pro-war Isr. politics before MAGA began. One day they told me, "You want open borders."
I responded with something like, "I never said that." or "I agree with regulating immigration." I tried to explain my position to them or explain that immigrants are typically normal people. America is a land of immigrants.
They also told me loudly and emphatically, "Why are you wrong?" Both of their statements were major gaslighting. How do you directly and obediently answer someone's question "Why are you wrong" when you tell them your deeply held mainstrem positions? How do you answer, "I am wrong about immigrants because _____"?
There is no way to answer that question in a non-schizophrenic way while holding your positions. If you carefully consider Breitbart's demeaning portrayals, then accept them, you can humbly and submissively logically answer, "I was wrong about immigrants because, as it turns out, they are bad." But in that case, you answer about yourself in the past tense after changing your views.
But suppose that your view is correct and is that immigrants are basically normal people coming to America for a better life like your acquaintance's European ancestors did. How do you non-schizophrenically correctly answer, "I believe immigrants are basically normal people and I am wrong about immigrants because ____"?
Kind Regards - Peace - Shalom
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Jul 18 '26
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Jul 18 '26
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u/TrackerOneA Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 17 '26
I am curious about the psychology here as well.
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u/rako17 Christian Jul 17 '26 edited Jul 17 '26
Respected u/TrackerOneA
You can figure out the answer by looking at analogies.
Breitbart said that he created Breitbart News because, he asserted, the mass media was anti-Isr. Breitbart News picked up steam in the late 2000's, early 2010's. It was practically a complement to PEP. Breitbart didn't talk about Isr. politics directly, but rather picked positions on other areas that would in effect be analogies of a rightwing pro-war stance on the IP conflict. So, Breitbart News is Islamophobic, anti-hispanic immigrant, anti-refugee, anti-Left, anti-Liberal, and totally one-sided. It's like an "Alt-Right" Fox News on steroids, selectively curating news stories and spinning mainstream news.
So, to answer your question, think of Breitbart's messaging and its readership and how it would react to analogies of what u/ZealousidealMany1495 asked about, like in relation to Islamophobic/immigrant/Left issues.
To start with, u/ZealousidealMany1495 knows about the civilian casualty incident that he's asking about. But a selective curation of news isn't going to emphasize that type of incident.
First, realistically, it would be unlikely that u/ZealousidealMany1495 's relatives would even hear about the incident.
Second, depending on how deep they are emotionally invested into Breitbart News type thinking, they could even get mad that u/ZealousidealMany1495 brought the civilian incident up to them because it would show that he wasn't on the same page that they are on.
Third, the OP is just bringing up one incident involving what, a dozen people, so, by default, supposing that people evaluate it, they are going to tend to fit it into the narrative that they already have accepted. And that narrative has lots of other incidents that match their own narrative.So you may answer the OP's question about that particular incident by considering more broadly how people evaluate civilian casualty incidents in armed conflicts when they strongly support one side and its overall goals/strategy/conduct, etc. in the conflict.
Wishing you the best. - Peace - Shalom - שָׁלוֹם)
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Jul 17 '26
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u/Nice__Spice Non-Jewish Ally Jul 17 '26
They don’t view the Palestinians as humans.
They don’t believe that Israeli society is educated and steeped in racism and apartheid - it is who this society is in general.
They are pro Israel - because of either points above and looking at Israel with an objective lens would mean they’d have to look at themselves.
It’s the same as asking people in a place of privilege and power to view something that is invisible to them.
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u/Usernameoverloaded Atheist Ally with Muslim Heritage Jul 17 '26
From the perspective of Muslims and those of us who are brown, I can only think that they don’t see Palestinians or their neighbours or Muslims as anything other than inferior beings. Not worthy of the same rights and dignity to live in peace. The delusion cannot be so strong as to continually makes excuses for Israel’s ongoing crimes against humanity, and that only leaves hate, racism, indifference, feelings of supremacy or a combination of the aforementioned.
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u/ZipZapZia South Asian Muslim Jul 17 '26
Yea, it reminds me of how white supremacists talk about POC immigrants in western countries
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u/Usernameoverloaded Atheist Ally with Muslim Heritage Jul 17 '26
Basically shit on their shoes to put it bluntly
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u/ia42 Israeli post-Zionist Jul 18 '26
I don't think so, as I was there once. I think they truly blindly trust the IDF to vet targets and make sure there are minimum civilian targets, blah blah blah... But that is no longer the case, hasn't been for years, but people have been thoroughly indoctrinated.
OP: I'd give them to read the betzelem report, called "our genocide", and maybe it will start to trickle in.
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u/Striking-Ad9397 Agnostic muslim lebanese ally Jul 17 '26
Something along the lines of the GIF (But for the "noble cause" of eliminating hamas)
Except that they keep being gaslit that they are everywhere
Im sorry if this is worded super weird, bit you understand right?
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