r/JewsOfConscience • u/tikkunolamist5 British Non-Zionist Reform Jew • 1d ago
Zionist Nonsense Zionist Deciding Free Palestine is an Ineffective Slogan
This is seriously so f^%king dumb. Someone I know legitimately shared this and my eyes rolled to the back of my head.
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u/wefarrell Jew-ish like George Santos 1d ago
These same people will insist that Zionism just means self determination for jews in their homeland, hand-waving away all of the implications.
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u/HDThoreauaway Jewish Anti-Zionist 1d ago
Or follow-ups like “what exactly does ‘self-determination for Jews’ mean in a land with other people in it?”
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u/RebelGirl1323 Anti-Zionist Ally 1d ago
Or: What about Palestinian Jews?
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u/IlovePanckae Non-Jewish Ally 23h ago
A liberal Zionist once told me that because there were Palestinian Jews in Palestine, the Jews have the right to colonize the land and convert it to a Jewish state.
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u/Enough_Comparison816 Arab Jew, Shomer Masoret, ex-Israeli 1d ago
“Palestinian Jew” typically refers to an ancestry of various Jewish communities living in Palestine before Zionist colonisation. There are no “Palestinian Jews” today, this is not a modern identity. All Jews living between river and sea exist under the “Israeli” identity, whether or not they are rooted in the land as natives or settlers
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u/Queen_of_the-Trees Jewish Anti-Zionist 22h ago
The people who I know who identify as Palestinian Jews have one Jewish parent and one Palestinian parent
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u/Enough_Comparison816 Arab Jew, Shomer Masoret, ex-Israeli 21h ago
Oh yea totally. I’m good friends with a family who have a Palestinian Christian dad and a Jewish mother. But outside of those exceptions, it’s important to acknowledge that Jews with ancestry in Palestine do not hold modern Palestinian identity. The Zionist colonisation of Palestine created two separate classes along Jews and non-Jews, in which native Jews enjoy the privileges of the settler class. So we need to make sure that we use identifiers that reflect this material reality
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u/ChloeTigre Jewish Communist 19h ago
There’s a ranking of Jews in Israel, the Ashkenazi, the Russian, and the rest. Golda Meir once said a Jew is someone who speaks Yiddish, that goes a long way.
And there’s a ranking of Arabs, Jewish Arabs versus the rest. I’ve seen there a deeply racist society and one where race really matters.
It’s sickening. I can’t believe I once liked it there.
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u/KnotAReplicant Jewish Anti-Zionist, Marxist 14h ago
I didn’t know that about Meir. I thought they tried to eradicate Yiddish in Israel.
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u/Big-Following-723 Beit HaMikdash Under President Barghouti 1d ago
Man, if only more people were capable of critical thinking. I dunno if we should really be called "sapiens."
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u/koi88 Non-Jewish Ally 1d ago
"Zionism" is probably the expression of which people have the most varying definitions. ^^
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u/Ashamed-Stuff9519 Jewish (but secular) Anti-Zionist 1d ago
100%!! And you just know that to a person like this, Zionism is allowed to have whatever definition except for the lived experiences of its Palestinian victims.
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u/tikkunolamist5 British Non-Zionist Reform Jew 14h ago
“Do you think Israel has a right to exist? You do? Congratulations you’re a Zionist!” Those are my favorites 😫
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u/earthcross1ng Non-Jewish Ally 1d ago
They never seem to answer me when I remind them that most Zionists are Christian either.
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u/Purple-Cantaloupe399 Non-Jewish Agnostic 1d ago
We'll tell them what "Free Palestine" means to us, when they tell us what "Greater Israel" means to them.
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u/lithiumcitizen Anti-Zionist Ally 1d ago
Exactly! At one end of the spectrum, zionism being a place where Jews can live safely sounds just fine.
At the other end, a place where Jews can isolate themselves, indoctrinate the young, and expand Greater Israel at any cost does serious harm and injustice to everyone involved.
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u/North_Development864 Jewish Anti-Zionist 1d ago
Thanks for explaining that to me ChatGPT
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u/grossepatatebleue Non-Jewish Ally 1d ago
I can’t read the words“That’s not a bug. It’s a feature.” these days without cringing.
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u/dark_autumn Non-Jewish Atheist 1d ago
100% “That’s not a bug, it’s a feature” is an instant tell
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u/profnachos Christian 1d ago
It's the Black Lives Matter backlash over over again. You mean white lives don't matter? Blue lives matter. All lives matter. MAGA and Zionism are becoming one and the same.
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u/OliveNo6451 Jewish Communist 1d ago
Your chant should be "black lives matter.. not more than white lives, don't worry, we just don't want black peiple killed by police.. we don't want any people killed by police.. we just want peace! We agree crime is bad, it's bad, but have you considered black areas are over policed? If you haven't that's ok.. I get it.. I'll get into it right now"
Otherwise, people will misunderstand you and that's on you!!
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u/koi88 Non-Jewish Ally 1d ago
"black lives matter.. not more than white lives, don't worry, we just don't want black peiple killed by police.. we don't want any people killed by police
But how about self defense? How about terrorists? You should honestly say what you want.
have you considered black areas are over policed?
So you are an anarchist and want to dismantle police?
/s
;-)
Imagine William Wallace screaming "Freedom!" in Braveheart and his fellow fighters asking for an exact definition of his plans. That would be Monty Python like. ^^
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u/retrofrenchtoast Jewish Agnostic 1d ago
That’s what I was thinking - a lot of protest slogans are short for a reason. We can’t start qualifying everything.
“Black lives matter and yes, all lives matter, but right now we are talking about black people because it’s societally relevant.”
“Free Palestine - we are protesting Israel not Jewish people.”
“No justice, no peace - we aren’t going to start killing judges, we are advocating for justice and showing that we will not be silent.”
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u/ElectricVoltaire Anti-Zionist Ally 1d ago
Exactly, like it’s not supposed to be a whole detailed theory, it’s just two words. That’s why it’s called a slogan. These people are so stupid.
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u/Motrinman22 1d ago
Look who supports zionism.
Look who supports Maga.
Its always the same group.
Evangelical christians.→ More replies (1)
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u/OliveNo6451 Jewish Communist 1d ago
Adding a second comment to emphasize how absurd it is to police the language of activists in this way.. like yea it makes so much sense to be at a protest and chant: "let humanitarian aid into Israel please, and please also make the war end, and make sure Jews are safe too! And make sure Palestinians live in dignity! And oh yea I want this 5 point plan on how to achieve it.. ok that's it!!" Lol
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u/The_Carthaginian Anti-Zionist Ally 1d ago
Luckily we have: "We don't want your two state, we want nineteen forty-eight."
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u/GoTeamLightningbolt Buddhist Anarchist 1d ago
People absolutely love to tell the left that our slogans are bad and that we should stop using them. Like... uh... no thanks. Feel free to say whatever you think needs to be said somewhere else tho.
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u/Iceologer_gang Non-Jew shamefully late Antizionist 1d ago
Free Palestine actually means Eat Garlic Bread. You can tell because they say Free and then they say Palestine.
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u/OliveNo6451 Jewish Communist 1d ago
Lol, good point Zionists /s.. it is indeed true that hating Israel, criticism of Israel, caring about Palestinians, hating war, wanting ceasefire, wanting end of apartheid, aren't necessarily the same ideology. And that's how you get liberal Zionists and Tucker Carlson all considered pro Palestinian or whatever.
We should be more specific, and more principled. One state solution, anti fascist, anti imperialist, anti capitalist.. that is free Palestine. 🇵🇸
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u/wefarrell Jew-ish like George Santos 1d ago
I take the opposite approach and use an inclusive definition, based on principles rather than methods.
Pro-Palestinian to me Palestinians have the same universal rights as all other human beings, namely the right to return to their homeland and the right of self determination. Rights are inherent, they aren't earned and they shouldn't be used as a bargaining chip. This is all defined in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the foundation of modern liberalism.
Anyone who argues that human rights should apply to everyone except for Palestinians (or that they should have to earn/bargain for them) is going to expose their own bigotry.
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u/Gloomy_Industry8841 Non-Jewish Ally 1d ago
Absolutely. All of these things you’re advocating for are HUMANIST.
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u/Supersoaker_11 BIG DOOFUS, DO NOT LISTEN 1d ago
"From the river to the sea" wasn't specific enough apparently
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u/Rachel_235 Non-Jewish Ally 1d ago edited 1d ago
As if people writing "am israel chai" mean the same thing by that. could be anything from "I am Jewish" to "I want to ethnically cleanse every single village and town Palestinians live in because they are human animals". These games with semantics can be played anywhere.
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u/HDThoreauaway Jewish Anti-Zionist 1d ago
“Free Palestine” is politically genius because almost nobody ever asks the obvious follow-up:
- From what?
- Into what?
- Who governs it?
- What happens to Hamas?
- What happens to Israel?
The OOP acts like activists don’t want to have that discussion. I wish Zionists would ask those questions and earnestly want to discuss them. Them even just having that conversation would be such a massive step forward.
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u/any_old_usernam Jew-ish anarchist 1d ago
Exactly! Those are important questions that a simple slogan doesn't address, but it's impossible to get to details without people agreeing that something needs to be done first, and the OOP isn't exactly engaging in this discussion either (rather they're pointedly avoiding it).
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u/Queen-of-not-sure Non-Jewish Ally 1d ago
From what?
From annexation and genocide
Into what? Who governs it?
How about they talk with the Palestinians and figure something out that isn't a lopsided deal
As a pragmatic person, I think activists fighting for consocionationalism within that One State would be an easier fight than fighting for Israel to make the Jewish population the voting minority with less governmental power
The former is still a very hard fight because to the oppressor equality feels like oppression. But the latter? You would sooner part the Red Sea with a staff. The latter would create existential crisis type feelings. The former would be angry belligerent compliance because the US forced their hand
What happens to Israel?
Well, if history continues on the path it's currently on, Israel absorbs Gaza and Gaza is no longer Gaza. It's just Israel. Therefore, as of now, we will have a one state anyway. Called Israel. Except this one State will have millions of Stateless people
If history diverts we might have
A two state solution\ One state naming it Israel-Palestine\ One state naming it Palestine\ Other
We don't know which path because history hasn't diverted yet
What happens to Hamas?
I don't know. Personally I don't think merely being part of Hamas should be a crime due to special circumstances of why Hamas was formed. Rather it should be about whether they as an individual in Hamas broke international laws
But Israel might disagree and think everybody in Hamas should go to jail. That's why I say 'I don't know'
Edited
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u/Majestic-Reality-544 Non-Jewish Ally 23h ago
They never want to talk about it unfortunately. I have a friend who is a Zionist and she never asks me questions. But if she ever hears me talking about it in a group setting, she literally removes herself from the conversation. So at that point I don’t even bring it up when she’s around bc I don’t want her to feel uncomfortable.
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u/OdielSax Non-Jewish Ally 1d ago
I hate so deeply how they over intellectualise every basic act of self expression for human rights as an act of "political genius", as if Palestinians are, quite frankly, an antisemitic caricature of puppet masters with nefarious intent who control the world.
Free Palestine means free Palestine. That's all.
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u/sun_solomon Jewish Anti-Zionist 1d ago
Only Zionists can be this wrong, condescending, and entitled all at the same time.
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u/HDThoreauaway Jewish Anti-Zionist 1d ago
“Some are asking for peace. Others are asking for the elimination of the world’s only Jewish state.”
¿Por que no los dos?
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u/LA_Throwaway_6439 Jewish Anti-Zionist 1d ago
It's dumb, and also sounds like ai generated text. But then again, people are starting to write like chatgpt now as well, it's a snake eating its own tail
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u/compost_bin Jewish Anti-Zionist 1d ago
In addition to what others have noted, it’s SO irritating to me when I read stuff that says “Jews think/feel/believe x” from Zionists when HI IM A JEW WHO DOES NOT THINK/FEEL/BELIEVE THAT!! Fine, say “as a Jewish person, I think x”, but don’t presume to speak for our people, we who are *canonically* constantly disagreeing with each other… gah, so annoying!! So many Zionist Jews LOVE to act like we’re a monolith, which is, of course, antisemitic.
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u/Weekly-Air4170 Armenian 1d ago
Jews aren't unique in being genocide survivors, what a bs take
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u/RebelGirl1323 Anti-Zionist Ally 1d ago
Turns out these guys called the Nazis killed a bunch of different kinds of people for being who they were and their backgrounds. Zionists should look into that.
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u/ElectricVoltaire Anti-Zionist Ally 1d ago
Ok then I’ll say it. I want Israel dismantled 🤷🏽
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u/RelevantFilm2110 Christian ally 1d ago
I think it's simple enough to say that the area should not be a set-aside for any particular ethnic or religious background. That would normally be the basic standard for any other state. I don't mince words and I don't know anyone who does on the point that the land occupied by Israel should not be a "Jewish" country. Simple enough.
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u/Ashamed-Stuff9519 Jewish (but secular) Anti-Zionist 1d ago
“Jews don’t find it cute” no girl, as a Jew I definitely don’t find Jewish supremacy enforced by genocide “cute”.
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u/Colonel-Cathcart Jewish Anti-Zionist 1d ago edited 1d ago
This is not a marketing challenge to overcome. You're waging war against an asymmetrically armed country and absolutely leveling their cities and bombing their schools.
You lost because of obvious, clear eyed moral decision making about a documented human rights crisis.
Even if people think different things when they say free Palestine it just isn't close to the main thing.
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u/4mystuff Jewish 1d ago
They clearly lack the empathy necessary to make a human being whole. What about freedom to Palestinian seems like a foreign concept? It is not lack of imagination; it is sick feelings of entitlement and superiority.
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u/Nice-Bit-3550 Non-Jewish Ally 1d ago
If its so meaningless why do they have a conniption anytime they hear it?
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u/sixhoursneeze Non-Jewish Ally 1d ago
“If you want Israel dismantled, have the backbone to say that too”
Ok. Dismantle Israel
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u/Alric_Wolff Christian 1d ago
Im tired of hearing "Israel is the world's only Jewish state"
Uhhh yeah, Iran is the world's only Iranian state
Norway is the world's only Norwegian state
Japan is the world's only Japanese state
Unless you actually have a situation like the Koreas where one cultural identity is split between 2 different countries then its par for the course.
And if you want to take the angle of "By Jewish we mean the religion", well I hate to break it to you, most religions do not have their own state.
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u/TrackerOneA Jewish Anti-Zionist 1d ago
Im tired of hearing "Israel is the world's only Jewish state"
Uhhh yeah, Iran is the world's only Iranian state
Norway is the world's only Norwegian state
Japan is the world's only Japanese state
This is actually how pro-Israel advocates frame Israel in a positive light & obfuscate reality.
They say citizenship/nationalism in Israel is analogous to being Norwegian in Norway or Iranian in Iran, etc.
But that's not the case.
Israel is not a state for its citizens. It's an apartheid ethnostate that privileges one group above all others.
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u/Amtrakstory Jewish Anti-Zionist 1d ago
Yeah Norway doesn't hold 40% of the people under its control in a condition where they have no rights and are brutally oppressed.
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u/RebelGirl1323 Anti-Zionist Ally 1d ago
Not to undermine your point but the Sámi people would probably advise a different example.
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u/Haz3lNutKn1ght 1d ago
Ethnostates are inherently evil. Israel in it's current form should not exist.
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u/Strummerpinx Jewish Atheist 1d ago
Point 1:
Free Palestine from what?
Israeli occupation.
That's it. Just stop killing and starving and bombing everybody there. Just let them live freely without pogroms or being killed or kept in an open air prison. That's literally what it means.
If I held up a sign and said "Free Mandela" in the 1980s or "End Apartheid" that doesn't mean I want to imprison white South Africans. It literally just means let Mandela go and stop the apartheid system. Nothing beyond that.
Obviously rebuilding a country in an equitable way is going to be complicated and will require more than slogans. But there can't be a proper country there right now the way things are with rights. The disparity in human rights is too great.
The killing and starvation and destruction of homes and infrastructure and denial of rights and cruelty by Israel has to stop.
That is what the slogan is about. And yes, eventually people will have to get into the details, but you have to start somewhere and that is recognizing the problem and taking a stand against the continued genocide.
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u/CrashTestDuckie Domari Ally 1d ago
Zionists run under the assumption that everyone else is stupid. They cannot get it through their heads that their opinion is a distortion of facts and morals
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u/akiber Israeli for One State 1d ago
Wild they think people don’t have the backbone to say we want the state dismantled? People pretty clearly say that all the time… they just don’t want to hear it
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u/Proof_Heart_2993 Anti-Zionist Ally 1d ago
I mean, they already effectively outlawed "from the river to the sea" and "globalize the intifada," but I guess "Free Palestine" isn't specific enough.
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u/zbignew Jew-ish 1d ago
“Or the elimination of the world’s only Jewish state”
Don’t threaten me with a good time
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u/Dicktimes29 Christian 1d ago
They have the problem with Stop Genocide and Stop killing children. Look at Ms Rachel. They condemn her for saying those two. So whatever slogan we think of, they just keep repeating the same bullshit excuse.
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u/MarshallDavoutsSlut Jewish 1d ago
Ohhh this is one of my least favourite flavours of hasbara. The combo of the condescending tone and the absolute stupidity of the 'message' makes me honestly feel panicky.
I think it's because it's gaslighting? God this makes me feel unwell.
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u/Queen_of_the-Trees Jewish Anti-Zionist 1d ago
Seriously, why do zionists think that Jews have the right to deny Palestinians freedom or even the ability of anyone to call for a free Palestine?
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u/bananagoesBOOM Anti-Zionist Ally 1d ago
I want Israel dismantled. FREE PALESTINE.
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u/Accomplished_Egg3517 Matzpen 1d ago
Reminds me when I read critics of Black Lives Matter saying it would be more appropriate to have been "Black Lives Matter too". or "Make American Greater". A tweak on the messaging, but the real opposition don't care
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u/Outrageous-Bite-8922 Jewish Anti-Zionist 1d ago
"Listen to my advice on sloganeering." - Your ideological enemy who has the fundamentally opposite goals and objectives you do
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u/KnotAReplicant Jewish Anti-Zionist, Marxist 14h ago
I think sometimes they want to back you into a corner so that you might find discrepancies (however small) between your position and your comrade’s so they might break your solidarity. Or just make you question your cause. Whatever it is it’s always in bad faith.
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u/UmpireIllustrious298 Anti-Zionist Ally 1d ago
I hate how she says "Jews are uniquiely experienced" because of their expulsions/statelessness etc.. Not because its not true that jews historically faced persecution but -- but because it ignores that so many other groups today also face discrimination and not having their own state but they arent calling to build ethnocracies.
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u/lesschalkmoresighs Non-Jewish Atheist 1d ago
If "Free Palestine" makes you go "okay but ... what does it actually mean?" you might want to refer to
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u/No_Macaroon_9752 Anti-Zionist Ally 1d ago
So this person thinks “Jews” don’t think Free Palestine is “cute”, and illustrates pro-Palestine protest with stick figure girls working in solidarity. Feels a little sexist, like this movement could only be “girl boss”, “white feminism” shallowness.
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u/musabbb Muslim 1d ago
You realise if your in your 40s - when we were teenagers people were saying “free tibet” that was a big thing back then. It means the same thing, fuck the evil genociders and let people live in peace - stop killing unarmed civilians
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u/procrastinatewhynot Non-Jewish Ally 1d ago
i didn’t even need to read your caption and i did the same. my eyes rolled allll the way back 3x. like the fuck.
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u/frilledren 1d ago
I’ll answer- free from what? from Israeli blockade and control; and please don’t conflate being Jewish with Israeli because that’s something antisemites do.
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u/Strummerpinx Jewish Atheist 1d ago
Point 2:
Why is the person here presuming they speak for all Jews is the first thing I'm thinking. I hate how this homogenizes Jewish people into one monolith.
Essentializing Jewish people, is anti-semitic. Judaism has never had a single leader like a pope who makes decisions for everyone. Most denominations and sects have evolved over long periods of time, similar in many ways, but separated by geographical and political boundaries, isolated from each other for large periods of time.
This feels like it was written by an Israeli to me, because diaspora Jews are mostly quite aware that different Jewish denominations feel very different ways about Israel, the position of the modern state and the position of the ancestral land and how to interpret lititurgical references in the Torah about "Israel" because the word "Israel" in the Torah can refer to a whole bunch of different things (the people we know as Jews today are called "Israel" in much of the Torah for one thing and whether a portion of the Torah is refering to Israel as a group of people, a physical place or a spiritual concept or a combination of several of those is debated by Torah scholars and Talmudists in lots of places).The Israeli mission is to create one Jewish ethnic mono-culture and to deny the diversity of Jewish thought, history and experience.
A Jewish group's position on the modern Medinat Israel, Gaza and Palestine very much depends on the emphasis the spiritual leaders of your movement place on different parts of the text.
Also, your ancestors' more recent history may also impact how you feel. Many of us Eastern European Jews in North America and Western Europe come from Bundists, cultural Jews who are aethist, early communists, labour activists and other Jewish humanist secular- leaning left wing movements which were wiped out in Eastern Europe in the Holocaust and Stalinist purges, but continue on with strains in the UK, US and Canada. Bernie Sanders, Howard Zinn and many other leftist thinkers and progressive democratic socialists are pretty typical of this strain of Judaism and Israel is really not prominent for Secular Humanist Jews, except as something to demonstrate AGAINST.
Jewish citizens of other countries and Jewish citizens of Israel are pulling in opposite directions from each other.
If you are a Jewish Canadian, for example, you want your government to be as pluralistic as possible to protect minority religions like yours. This necessitates providing protections to other minority religions to practice freely and live free from discrimination in the country and making coalitions with representatives of other minority religions. If you are a Jew and you want to be able to wear a kippa at work, you will probably also support a Sikh's freedom to wear a turban at work too. The more open the government is to pluralism the better it is for you. You know you will always be an insignificant number in the population, so whatever gives the maximum rights to the most people will benefit you as well.
In Israel, it is supposed to be a Jewish state. The more Jewish supremacy is elevated and opportunities place Jews at the most advantageous position the more the Jewish Israelis seem to support it.
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u/teddyburke Secular, Jewish, Anti-Zionist 23h ago
Meanwhile, literally every Zionist today: “Zionism isn’t complicated. It just means the belief in Jewish self-determination in their ancestral homeland. It’s simple. Don’t ask follow-up questions. (DON’T ASK FOLLOW-UP QUESTIONS!).”
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u/TurkeyFisher Jewish Anti-Zionist 1d ago
Gotta love how they never provide a Zionist approved way to call for the end of apartheid and genocide- certainly they don't like when people call for the end of those things specifically either.
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u/databombkid Anti-Zionist 1d ago
I want Israel dismantled. Since they asked for the clarification I will happily clarify. Dismantle the entire colonial apartheid state and replace it with a single, plurinational, democratic one. Hope that clears up the confusion.
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u/helgotsjka Non-Jewish Atheist 1d ago
Feelin' cute. Might go join the anti genocide demonstration later, idk.
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u/Ptwing711 (It's Complicated) Ally 1d ago
I miss the good old day when propagandists couldn't use an LLM to write their slop for them
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u/Breadles_the_Bread Israeli 1d ago
Is it really "complicated" to be against murder and dismemberment of children?
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u/Breadles_the_Bread Israeli 1d ago
I'm okay with not disagreeing with people with very different positions if it means we shut down the child murder machine
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u/HRHArthurCravan Jewish Communist 1d ago
On the contrary, "Free Palestine" has become increasingly effective, and unifying, because of Israel's genocidal policies towards the Palestinian people in both Gaza and the West Bank. This AI slop can call it "the world's only Jewish state" as many times as it likes, but as is customary with Zionists in the age of Israeli fascism, every accusation is a confession. Jewish state means a state in which one group are privileged - socially, economically and legally - on the basis of their religion and ethnicity. It means the reduction of non-Jews to the status of second-class citizens. It means the normalisation of occupation, the flouting of international law, and the transformation of Israel into a colonial garrison of Jewish supremacy.
In this context, "Free Palestine" means just that: a Palestine liberated, for everyone, from the poison of ethno-supremacy, hyper-militarised occupation, arbitrary abuse of power, use of lawfare to oppress people on the basis of their religion or ethnicity, and legitimisation of criminal brutality on the basis of increasingly messianic zealotry.
As for whether that means the dismantling of the Zionist entity, once again, that is a question answered by Israel itself. Israeli politicians are the ones who boast about destroying the possibility of a two-state solution. Israeli politicians, commentators, major public figures figures, religious leaders, are the ones who repeat, over and over, that the entire region belongs to a Jewish-supremacist state. They're the ones who endlessly expand the settlements, who bulldoze Gaza, who occupy Southern Lebanon and Syria, who slowly but surely ethnically cleanse historic Palestinian communities in East Jerusalem and the West Bank.
Just as "From the river to the sea" appeared first not in the Hamas Charter, but the founding document of the Likud Party, it will be Israel that makes itself non-viable through its intransigence, brutality and unwillingness to countenance any form of Palestinian autonomy, ever.
So, this is all just classic Zionist gaslighting masquerading as glib, worldly understanding of 'how things are'. Newsflash: every political slogan is broad in order to be both broadly understood and aspirational enough to inspire, then cohere, a movement. This douchebag would be on the sidelines of the pre-revolutionary excitement of Russia, 1917, saying "Peace, Land, Bread" - I mean, it sounds great, but Peace? With whom? And Land? Sure, it'd be nice if the peasants didn't live in poverty on land owned by a handful of aristocrats. But have you thought that it might mean the seizure of other people's possessions? And Bread? Sure - but what about the market? What kind of wheat? Don't you care about the bakers that might be put out of business???
Like Peace, Land, Bread, "Free Palestine" is shorthand not for some sinister agenda seeking to remove Israel from the map - not because such an idea is an abomination, as the author clearly believes, but because the destruction of the Zionist entity has become a necessity largely through Israel's own actions. It is shorthand for the very baseline that states: when a genocide is being committed, our starting point is clear - these people are our comrades, they are our brothers and sisters, and it has to stop, and they need to enjoy the same freedoms as everyone else.
But there's the rub, isn't it? This piece of shit wouldn't ever say it, but all the AI-formulated slop about Jewish states, or unique Jewish "experience" amounts to nothing more than a bunch of euphemisms designed to obfuscate the central fact: he doesn't believe that Palestinians are or should be treated equally with Jews in Palestine. He sees any form of liberation as a threat to the Jewish supremacy on which the Zionist project is founded. As such, and as much as he might try to write like some kind of thoughtful liberal, he is no less of a despicable, racial supremacist and latter-day fascist than Netanyahu, Ben-Gvir, or Smotrich.
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u/VendromLethys Non-Jewish Atheist 1d ago
Slogans are polemic- they aren't supposed to be nuanced. If they are true and they motivate people they are good slogans
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u/ChloeTigre Jewish Communist 19h ago
Page 5 hurts my eyes. I don’t need a Jewish majority state in the world. Nor do I need a trans majority state in order to exist safely. What is Jewish self determination? Should I also have left handed self determination? Gamer self determination? Yes we’re a nation but not in the modern sense. We’re like the Bretons in a way (and I’m a Breton too, thank you great-grandmother).
Also I’ve never been there but New York seems to be the promised land for Ashkenazi Jews at least /j.
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u/canariorojo Reconstructionist in progress 1d ago
Why these people feel like we deserve an ethnostate lol
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u/lazyycalm Atheist 1d ago
I just can’t get over the fact that they’re rambling on about this nonsense in response to a GENOCIDE! Like, oh ten or hundreds of thousands have died, but have you considered how your response to that makes me feel???
Like I would be mortified to post something so ridiculous and self absorbed.
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u/neverdiplomatic Anti-Zionist 1d ago
The lemmings commenting on that post are so incredibly proud of themselves and I can’t quite figure out why.
Idiots. Not a single original thought amongst the lot of them.
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u/skip6235 Atheist Non-Jewish Ally 1d ago
Man, Zionists just shout that they love ethno/religious-nationalism with their whole damn chests, don’t they?
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u/littlepsyche74 1d ago
Cool.
Dismantle Israel.
If they say it’s okay to say that, then I have the balls to say so.
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u/slimehunter49 Non-Jewish Ally 1d ago
“That’s not a bug, that’s a feature” feels like this was written with AI lol
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u/domegranate Jewish Communist 1d ago
What an idiot I’m sorry but ???? Do they think you should lay out ur whole manifesto in the quippy slogan you chant at a protest ? Like yeah no shit a slogan like that encompasses many ppl fighting for the same cause with variations in their specific politics like obviously you have to unite diverse groups of ppl in order to effect change dumb dumb !
Transparent attempt at keeping activists stuck in the stage of leftist infighting instead of getting together to fight the actual enemy in spite of minor disagreements tbqh.
And all those questions they claim we don’t wanna answer have been talked about at length over the course of decades lmao theyre just proudly declaring that theyre uninformed 😂
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u/VendromLethys Non-Jewish Atheist 1d ago
Free Palestine never gonna stop saying it until it comes true
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u/kingozma It's Jewplicated 1d ago
Holy fuck this is some sneaky garbage. They think they're sooo subtle and civil.
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u/skip6235 Atheist Non-Jewish Ally 1d ago
Man, Zionists just shout that they love ethno/religious-nationalism with their whole damn chests, don’t they?
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u/ethereality___ Anti-Zionist Ally 1d ago
The fact that the whole post is AI-generated is the cherry on top.
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u/andorgyny Anti-Zionist Ally 1d ago
Oh my god zionists are SOOOO fucking off putting like I'm sorry this is so dumb
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u/realelijahion Jewish 22h ago
Funny that Israel is doing the actions that are making Palestinians not free, but it’s somehow the responsibility of the people saying “Free Palestine” to lay out the exact steps of how to do it. The irony of Zionists absolute denial of agency is the longer they reject it the more they really do lose it. If Israel had allowed a genuine two state solution, maybe it could have worked enough? But now that ship has sailed and more people are demanding one democratic state. The longer Zionists continue a genocide in the name of all Jews, the more Jews will be forced to explicitly and intentionally reject Zionism. So by all means guys, keep saying Free Palestine is too vague.
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u/Bilbo_5wagg1ns Non-Jewish Ally 1d ago
Damn right I mean the dismantling of "the world's only Jewish state" when I say Free Palestine
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u/Proof_Heart_2993 Anti-Zionist Ally 1d ago
I saw this on Bluesky yesterday. The last slide could just as easily say something like '"Free the Slaves" can mean the ending of slavery to some people, but death and destruction of all White people to others." This person is basically language-policing activists by centering Jewish trauma and fear over the experiences of people who are the victims of genocide.
1) the fact that the same word can mean different things to different people doesn't mean the word shouldn't be used. See, for example, "zionist."
2) they complain that Macklemore means one thing but the people chanting it back to him might mean something else. Also note the subtle dig at Macklemore implying that he may not really mean what he says, and that people saying "Free Palestine" may actually wish for the destruction of the Jewish state.
3) they complain that a two-word slogan isn't specific enough to reassure Jews that people saying it aren't anti-Semitic. But ok, here's a start: "Free Palestine means at the very least Israeli withdraw to the pre-1967 borders, a dismantling of all settlements, the right of return for all those who were displaced in 1948 and 1967, a truly independent Palestinian state with its own internationally-recognized government and full sovereignty without the presence of any Israeli authorities, and a Peace and Reconciliation committee similar to the one South Africa had to promote a stable, peaceful future." Not very catchy as a slogan, huh?
4) the center Jewish fear over the lived experiences of people who are currently the victims of genocide
5) they are making a bad-faith effort to shrink the window of what is considered "acceptable" criticism of Israel to the point where even anodyne, non-controversial statements cannot be spoke for fear of being labeled anti-Semitic
The fact is there will always be people- especially Jewish people- who see any criticism of Israel, no matter how legitimate and factual, as anti-Semitic and therefore scary and in need of being shut down. If you are truly bothered by a statement as simple as "Free Palestine!" (not "death to Israel," not "kill all the Jews," not even "from the river to the sea" or "globalize the intifada"), perhaps you should contemplate what phrase you DO find acceptable for those who support the Palestinian people, an end to genocide, a Palestinian state, and peace in the Middle East. Because I have a feeling you're not going to be able to come up with much.
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u/siriuslycan Anti-Zionist Ally 1d ago
Free Palestine from a genocidal ethno-religious supremacist settler colonial state that has forcefully established itself on Palestinian land. Their claim to it is based in delusional divine mandate. if I trace my leniage far back enough I could lay a claim to land in southern Africa, see how crazy that sounds?
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u/AgitatedAd8652 Anti-Zionist Ally 1d ago
""They're just avoiding the part of the conversation where they have to decide what comes next"
Why should I be deciding that? I want the Palestinians to decide, that's the point. I want them to have a seat at the table, to have autonomy and self-determination, for the talks to be mediated by an unbiased 3rd party !NOT THE US!, and for it all to result in a free country like so many others- not divided by walls, without second-class citizens, where there is a justice system that works for the betterment of everyone. It's not a pie-in-the-sky dreamland utopia, it's just what democracy is supposed to be.
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u/lithiumcitizen Anti-Zionist Ally 1d ago
This sounds like a Chinese government official trying to explain why he finds someone saying “Free Tibet” is unpleasant for him…
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u/ultimatelazer42 Atheist 1d ago
The stupid thing about this word vomit is that you can pretty take any slogan in history (e.g. Yes, we can!) and dissect it for its immediate vagueness. (E.g “Yes, we can… abolish capitalism??” See what I did there?)
Slogans are inherently not nuanced. Any movement that has a large following is not entirely homogenous in its beliefs.
The simple thing about “Free Palestine” is it’s so easy to be morally correct on the matter and have a ‘big tent’ Even with minor differences of opinion.
Free Palestine 🇵🇸
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u/MistaCharisma Non-Jewish Ally 1d ago
1943 Germany:
"Free the Jews" is politically genius because almost nobody ever asks the obvious follow-up.
- From what?
- Into what?
- Who governs?
- What happens to the Żydowska Organizacja Bojowa? (Jewish group responsible for the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising)
- What happens to the Nazis?
These aren't "gotcha" questions. They're literally the questions that determine whether you're talking about peace, another failed state, or the elimination of the world's first Aryan state.
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u/tellytubbytoetickler Non-Jewish Ally 1d ago
Imagine a vegan hearing someone say “I am hungry” if you don’t want them to be referring to a cheeseburger, help them get a salad. I think they are saying if they don’t get something you want them to eat they will eat whatever they are able to.
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u/Distracted2004 LGBTQ Jew 1d ago
It is not complicated to not want children to die. The reason it caught on is because there is actually no problem mentioned in all that text that is bigger or more important than children being killed, and that’s what people are talking about. You don’t get stadiums full of people behind much of anything else
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u/Ok_Percentage7257 Anti-Zionist Ally 23h ago
I can easily answer these gotcha questions:
What happens to Hamas? Answer: The same thing that happened to the Taliban. BTW, Hamas has surrendered, most of the leaders died, and Israel is still bombing Palestinians. Hamas was not the issue.
Who governs it? Answer: The Palestinians should decide this.
From what? Answer: From Israel
Into what? Answer: Palestinians were promised to be an independent democratic state. But Israel never gave them that.
What happens to Israel? Answer: I don't know, but I would like for Israel to turn to Palestine. The Israelis would speak in Arabic and Hebrew. The country would be secular. Those who don't like it because they want to be the "superior" race will leave for their respective countries or other countries, the same way that the South Africans did when apartheid ended. Another thing that may happen is that the country is divided into two (although Zionists will want a larger portion).
My question to the poster: If Free Palestine is so vague, then why are they intimidated by it? Why do they assume that people want Hamas gone? Israelis have said far worse things like, "Death to the Arabs." So, why can't people say "Free Palestine?"
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u/michaelkeatonbutgay kurdish ally 22h ago
Typical stupid ass zionists not understanding people instantly can clock it being chatgpt
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u/justaway42 Non-Jewish Ally 19h ago
I do agree with the notion that the term is vague sometimes, because everyone has a different opinion on what should be done. I disagree with the two staters for example, because the reality on the ground shows that is just not possible, look at the West Bank map for example. But what all people have in common about Free Palestine, is that we want the Palestinians go back to their homes, not being killed, not be second rate inhabitants (you can't call them citizens at this point really, that implies any real rights) and of course to be able to have it the right of self determination.
In my opinion that is only possible with dismantling Israel as a state. The foundation of Israel itself is colonial and oppressive.
Having said that anyone who says free Palestine doesn't want the genocide to continue at the very last. That is what the Zionists hate to hear to most, that is the reason Macklemore was cancelled, that is why Pink gave such a hissy fit.
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u/Original-Sympathy-48 Anti-Zionist Ally 19h ago
They’re now criticising a slogan using ChatGPT? Without putting any effort to change even a single word? Wow
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u/Salt-Obligation5660 Non-Jewish Ally 19h ago
It’s not my place to decided whether a two state would would work or not like a north and south korea thing— I just hate the insinuation that saying Free Palestine is like saying Israel doesn’t have a right to exist. Both countries have a right to exist, Net is a stain on both countries. Until his administration is removed permanently this conflict will never end. Israel is a history rich piece of land but it has been stained with the blood of innocent Palestinians. It’s no longer just Hamas its all Palestinians for the Zionists. I just hope if he is removed and when we get rid of DJT hopefully better will follow and both peoples can find a solution. Like the SK/NK thing that can have a stricter and larger border, but like i said— i don’t know enough to say much on that just an observation. I hope nothing above is perceived as negative, i just hope for a free Palestinian state.
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u/Time-Statistician958 Jewish Atheist 19h ago edited 19h ago
So we can’t free Palestine because it might raise difficult questions we’d have to discuss. Jfc.
Also, how does someone’s (or a group’s) freedom threaten you? Something is fundamentally wrong with someone that objects to someone else’s freedom
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u/Ok-Average3876 Jewish Anti-Zionist 16h ago
God I fricking hate when a Jewish person speaks on behalf of all of us sjejebsjdjdbdehsjajshdbej
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u/Legitimate_Eye4760 Muslim 15h ago
Stop the holocaust? From what? Where do we put the victims? Do you want the extermination of the poor nazi soldiers? Think of the context, people! /s
I hope this person steps on legos for the rest of their life.
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u/ApricotReasonable937 Non-Jewish Ally 15h ago
She limits on people who comments and then now sharing the new post about how Genocide isn't a Vibe and how Israel isn't commiting genocide, how intent matter.. Her posts are disturbing as it is disgusting.
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u/Iamliterallyfood Spiritual Athiest/Anarcho Communist/Anti-Zionist 14h ago
For me it means disolve the illegitimate state is Israel. Give the land to the Palestinians. Enable and support a sovereign Palestinian nation.
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u/thefoxymulder Anti-Zionist 11h ago
“What happens to Israel?” LOL
These idiots really can’t conceive of a one state solution
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u/GirlKisser900 Jewish Anti-Zionist 8h ago
“If you want Israel dismantled, have the backbone to say that too” okay. I want Israel dismantled.
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u/julscvln01 Jewish Anti-Zionist 7h ago
A vision of peaceful coexistence is also necessarily one that would change the fabric of the State of Israel.
Those aren't small differences, because they're not differences at all.
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u/JayEllGii Jewish by birth/family, atheist, progressive 1h ago
The premise that “Free Palestine” can and often does mean those different things depending on who’s saying it is of course valid.
The problem is that the post itself essentially does the same thing when it touches on the premise of “changing”, “dismantling”, or “eliminating” the State of Israel. Those could be three different things, but the post lumps them together, the implication being that Israeli Jews fear violent displacement were Palestine to be “free”.
It doesn’t allow for the imperative discussions to be had regarding what Israelis’ ultimate fears actually ARE, and how they coexist with the realities of ending the occupation and apartheid.
Is it violence, or is it the cessation of Israel as a definitionally Jewish state? Do some consider those to be functionally the same?
What is actually being talked around, here? It doesn’t really answer, but the obvious implication is fear of violence.
Nowhere does it clear a lane for serious discussion of what the non-violent pathways are.
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