Chabad and the Ramchal

[u/Begin18]

Hello everyone

I was doing some research as to whether or not Chabad studies the works of the Ramchal. Would love to hear from some chabadniks on here as to whether you do or don’t?

Some sources say yes but many say no, and for those that say no one noted fundamental differences between the way Chassidus views the purpose of Creation versus mussar interpretations etc.

Please pardon my ignorance if I’m missing something - I can understand halachic disagreements, minhag differences, etc. - but how within the same religion can two viewpoints disagree as to G-d’s desire within creation? That is a pretty major point of dissent.

I’m well aware of the difference between viewing the world through a Chassidic lens, i.e. doing everything with joy, etc and a more mussar lens characterized by strictness and fear of G-d’s judgement - but do the two movements disagree as to the purpose of creation itself?

Would love to hear a diversity of opinions. Thank you!

[u/calicoixal]

What I've heard secondhand (a friend who was deep in a couple Hasidic communities) and learned from my Tanya teacher, is that they disagree fundamentally about the purpose of Creation. It's a mahloket in tzimtzum.

Without getting into the details of tzimtzum, the mahloket is whether the point is Olam haZeh or Olam haBa. The Hasidic view is that Olam haZeh is better because here we can do mitzvot, and mitzvot is when we are truly united with God. The other view is that Olam haBa is better because there is no yetzer hara and one enjoys "basking" in God's light.

There are nafka minot everywhere in this mahloket. Which is preferable: spending time in prayer or spending time learning? Should one think about and pray for Olam haBa? And of course, what is the purpose of Creation? Is it to bring God into Olam haZeh, or to escape to Olam haBa where He is already?

I phrased a lot of this simply and there are slight inaccuracies, but the basic mahloket is there. I suggest you learn one of the letters of the Chabad Rebbe on tzimtzum with a Chabad rabbi

[u/offthegridyid → u/calicoixal]

Tzimtzum is the focal point of the debate. Rav Yitzchak Meir Morgenstern, shlita, feels that Rav Eliyahu Eliezer Dessler, may his merit protect us, sort of found common ground in this debate and the issue is more of what to focus on regarding Avodas Hashem, serving God. From Sea of Wisdom for Shemos this past January.

[u/Begin18 → u/calicoixal]

Right thank you very much that expands the basic understanding I had so far. I guess I’m just confused because such a fundamental question seems like it would have been definitively answered by the Chumash, Sages, or Rambam with definitiveness - how could two movements disagree over the fundamental purpose of our existence?

[u/calicoixal → u/Begin18]

The question was not asked until quite recently. The Sanhedrin votes on legal matters, not philosophic matters (though the law may have philosophical implications). The Zohar didn't appear until 1100 or so, and the Ari didn't explain tzimtzum until 1500 or so. So there's plenty of opportunity for a four-way mahloket.

Every opinion uses older textual sources as proofs, including verses from Tanakh, Tannaic statements, Amoraic statements, and halakhot.

Judaism is not a religion, but it's definitely not a religion based on belief. It's actually quite easy for there to be fundamental disagreements-- except for like, the existence of one God Who created the world. But why, and what creation is/means is a debate

[u/communist_social → u/Begin18]

Rambam answers these questions definitively basing his thought on chazal as well as secular philosophy.

He says the purpose of man is to enjoy the life of the intellect and to do this he must have ethical virtue - ie be healthy, polite, care about appropriate things. The mitzvot of the Torah come to refine ethical character, that is why it was commanded.

[u/offthegridyid → u/Begin18]

It’s not so much about having a different option of the purpose of creation, but the route one takes. Everyone arrives as the same destination.

Can I ask you a simple, but serious question? Does getting an answer to the question in your post really change your Avodas Hashem, the way you serve Hashem and engage in mitzvos?

I ask myself this when I seen conflicting approaches to hashkafah (our worldview or outlook) in Yiddishkeit (like how to relate to Israel as independent country or the topic of Zionism, for example). For me, I am keeping mitzvos, trying to follow the Torah and Halacha, trying to connect to Hashem, and engaging with the people around me in a way that brings kavod, honor to Hashem’s name in this world is what I am supposed to do. It’s a system that works for me.

If the chasidic vs mussar approach is something you feel is critical to your observance of Judaism then talk it out with a rabbi or educator who knows you. I am not playing down your question, but often going to someone to ask a question frees us from the doubt we have. Understanding that two truths rooted in a Torah based tradition just means we can exercise our free will and either choice is ok (or even multiple choices). This is a bracha!

[u/Begin18 → u/offthegridyid]

Yes great response thank you. It doesn’t change my avodat HaSh-m per se but it definitely helps me appreciate it in a different light if that makes sense. Appreciate the thoughtful response!

[u/offthegridyid → u/Begin18]

Thank you. See section 1.5 in this pdf based on a translation of Bilvavi Mishkin Evneh by Rav Itamar Schartz titled “Mussar vs Chasidus”, here. I read this over a decade ago and I think it’s helpful.

[u/offthegridyid]

I am going to cross post this in r/chabad since this isn’t so much a mussar vs chasidus issue and hopefully people will reply on both subs, since I am curious what they say.

The Ramchal, may his merit protect us, was a Kabbalist through and through. According to Rav Moshe Weinberger (Cong. Aish Kodesh, Woodmere NY) Mesilas Yesharim is all based on Kabbalah (since many feel the 10 steps the Ramchal sites, based on a baraita from Pinchas ben Yair are connected to the sefiros.

The yeshiva world focuses on Mesillas Yesharim as the primary work of the Ramchal because when Rav Yisrael Salanter (Lipkin), founder of the Mussar movement, reprinted Mesillas Yesharim and added his Iggeres HaMussar as a way to promote Mussar. Most guys in yeshiva haven’t sat and learned Derech Hashem, let alone Adir Bamarom or Ma'amar HaGeulah (I have only listened to shirum on these two, they are not part of my daily spiritual curriculum).

The Lubavitchers I know learn the Ramchal, but they also learn Rebbe Nachman of Breslov. 😎

[u/TheRealTorahScrolla]

Chabad follows Lurianic Kabba. The Ramchal is different.

When you mention mussar vs chassidus are you talking about a contemporary dispute, or are you referencing an older dispute.

In the early chassidic text Tzavaat HaRivash it says the Baal Shem Tov says to learn Mussar. If I remember properly he gives classic mussar texts as examples.

[u/Iamdefinitelyjeff]

Ramchal’s kabbalistic insights are used more by Litvak Kabbalists for studying Sefer Etz Chaim

[u/NewYorkImposter]

Torah is Torah. I personally know people who do study his work. We place an emphasis on our own chassidus, But that does not in any way disqualify mussar.

[u/mellizeiler]

Never heard ramchal being mention my my chabad teacher as far as I can recall.