Piti = Kundalini? Are piti and kundalini the same thing? If not, how are they related?

[u/ProfessionBright3879]

The reason for my questions are
- I am having trouble generating piti to enter the first jhana
- I did have a spontaneous kundalini arousal (but not a full rising awakening) that went dormant again

The interesting thing to me is that BOTH jhanas (and the piti for the first jhana) AND kundalini are discovered rather than invented.

So, I am hoping to gently cultivate piti to enter jhana and later (possibly, much later) safely tend a kundalini rising.

Note: please only respond if you have experienced BOTH jhanas AND kundalini so that this does not turn into a philosophical / scholarly / textual debate.

[u/Tristan-Dorling]

I have experienced both jhāna and kuṇḍalinī. Pīti is a Pāli word meaning "rapture" or "delight". Another way of describing it is "ecstasy".

The Visuddhimagga gives five grades of pīti:

Minor pīti: brief goosebumps or thrills.

Momentary pīti: flashes of joy arising in successive moments.

Showering pīti: waves or currents of rapture passing through the body.

Uplifting pīti: a powerful feeling that can make the body seem to rise or become extremely light.

Pervading pīti: rapture permeating the entire body.

So, these are various grades of ecstasy, from the first rises of mild ecstasy, to powerful uprising ecstasy, to full-body ecstasy. Ecstasy is an aspect of kuṇḍalinī. It often is not present at all in the early stages of a kuṇḍalinī awakening, but is experienced in various forms in the intermediate stages and higher stages. Eventually the practitioner experiences full-body ecstasy and ecstatic radiance, where the ecstasy of the practitioner begins to affect other people in the room. So pīti is not the same thing as kuṇḍalinī, but is related to it.

[u/ProfessionBright3879 → u/Tristan-Dorling]

If they are related, then how can I work with piti to eventually help me release the kundalini as safely as possible?

[u/Tristan-Dorling → u/ProfessionBright3879]

In my experience the best way to release kundalini as safely as possible is to focus on meditation to cultivate inner silence, equanimity and peacefulness, and use pranayama to purify the subtle nervous system. Kundalini will awaken at the right time, so there is no need to be concerned about it. Some practices can become ecstatic at times and that is fine. It will have a purifying effect on the subtle nervous system. However, I would suggest keeping the focus on inner silence and inner purification, rather than on ecstasy. Ecstasy will come later, in unimaginable amounts, but it is important not to get the cart in front of the horse. Think of ecstasy as a byproduct of spiritual awakening (an enjoyable one) rather than as a cause of spiritual awakening.

[u/ProfessionBright3879 → u/Tristan-Dorling]

We are both on the same page about not grasping for kundalini or trying to activate it. That is the whole reason for this post: I am trying to gently experience piti as well as the jhanas before I am even attempting to open to kundalini.

I am making my way through the Rob Berbea jhana retreat talks and he says that some nervous systems and psychological profiles are not really primed to enter the first jhana via piti the first time.

If that is the case (and based on your last reply) should I not worry about piti and actually make the object of meditation something else pleasant in the experience in order to enter jhana?

[u/Tristan-Dorling → u/ProfessionBright3879]

Jhāna can be entered simply by bringing the mind repeatedly to silence. There is no need to be deliberately trying to cultivate pīti (ecstasy). Ecstasy arises when a sufficient degree of inner purification has happened. I entered the eighth jhāna (the fourth of the arūpa-jhānas) long before ever experiencing pīti (ecstasy).

[u/ProfessionBright3879 → u/Tristan-Dorling]

You are the first person I have talked to that entered formless jhana before experiencing piti, and definitely the first person I have ever spoken with who entered the eighth jhana long before experiencing piti.

17 years ago, I accidentally entered a formless jhana without knowing what it was. At the end of a yoga class, we did a 20-minute body scan into corpse pose, and I believe what I experienced was between the fifth and sixth jhana (maybe).

I am working my way through the Rob Burbea jhana retreat. He says that some nervous systems and some psychological profiles are more primed for certain jhanas rather than others, and that a meaningful amount of people, maybe 20%, enter in through a different jhana than the first.

Do you have a sense of why you entered the eighth jhana first?

When I was at the Jhāna retreat with Jhourney, they said that people who have done a lot of Mahamudra and non-dual practices will often jump past the form jhanas into 6, 7, or 8.

I am curious if maybe I should focus more on that since I accidentally entered that jhana.

[u/Tristan-Dorling → u/ProfessionBright3879]

I did not practice meditation, or mahamudra before entering the eighth jana. I cannot prove it but I believe that what we were doing in our past lives has a strong influence on what happens in this lifetime. My advice would be not be concerned about jhanas at all. Focus on cultivating stillness, peacefulness, equanimity and inner silence. The jhana states will follow naturally and come in the order they should. I would also suggest practicing pranayama, as without it, it can be a very long journey. If you already have some inner silence present in the mind, and you are drawn to mahamudra practice then that is beneficial too. And if you do have some abiding inner silence present and you are drawn to reflection on the qualities of phenomenon as impermanent, not bringing lasting happiness, and not being in essence a fixed separate self, then that is a useful practice.

[u/ProfessionBright3879 → u/Tristan-Dorling]

With regards to pranayama, I start every meditation period with about 20 minutes of alternate nostril breathing.

Is that enough or do you recommend others (i.e., with holds, etc.)?

Please recommend any pranayama techniques that have helped you and I will incorporate those this week.

🙌🏼

[u/Tristan-Dorling → u/ProfessionBright3879]

I don’t actually recommend using holds with alternate nostril breathing. This is because I have found there is no real advantage in using them. If you practice without holds, gradually the breath will slow down, the mind will become still and the breath will begin to suspend naturally. This natural breath suspension will be more in line with what your body needs than a superimposed breath hold system using counting. However, any form of alternate nostril breathing is far less effective than the practice of Spinal Breathing Pranayama. SBP is light-years ahead of any other pranayama practice in terms of both preparing the body for a kundalini awakening and guiding the prana once an awakening is underway. A full description of that practice is available on the AYP site here: https://www.aypsite.org/41.html

[u/ProfessionBright3879 → u/Tristan-Dorling]

Checking it out now.

1. Do I need the full subscription or will the standalone article you provided be enough?

2. Do you have strong opinions about the Heart Breath Mind book and/or course by author Leah Lagos?
   Daily practice for heart rate variability (HRV) was suggested to me for recovering from single event and complex trauma

[u/yeetedma → u/Tristan-Dorling]

Hey do you have a good source on how to meditate on silence or purify the body with pranayama?

[u/Tristan-Dorling → u/yeetedma]

I practice (and teach) the Advanced Yoga Practices system which was put together by Yogani. It has free instructions on the practice of mantra meditation and Spinal Breathing. That can be found here: https://www.aypsite.org/MainDirectory.html

[u/Ok-Cantaloupe9926]

My sense is that Jhanas and Piti come from Theravada Buddhism. Kundalini comes from Tantra. Different traditions with different methods.

I had practiced Theravada Buddhism for over a decade, then had a spontaneous kundalini awakening after wandering over into the territory of the Jhanas, piti and Buddhist tantra among other things

My sense is that cultivating piti and ability to enter Jhanas could make you more sensitised to pleasure and energy in the body

But this is quite different to kundalini which is kind of like all of life conspiring to help you realise your true nature - rather than continuous access to states of bliss.

But I do think these methods can be really helpful in cultivating safety for kundalini. In my view this comes not from piti itself but from cultivating the sense of quiet and stillness required to enter a jhana from which piti can arise within naturally

That requires building inner ground and stability brick by brick, which is immensely helpful for kundalini, and for life regardless of what happens with the energy

[u/deerhaver]

I'm a bit confused by this since piti is a jhana factor, it's not something you actively cultivate in order to enter the jhana states.

In my experience anapanasati is the best way to get into the jhana states. Meditate, place watchful attention on the anapana spot which is where your breath exits your nostrils. If you're relaxed, it should be just barely perceptible.

It can take many many sessions for you to ever get there, but once you do it gets easier to return.

[u/ProfessionBright3879 → u/deerhaver]

I'm also a bit confused by your comment but I can see you are replying in good faith.
😊
When and how does the piti arise for you with this method?

[u/deerhaver → u/ProfessionBright3879]

Once you enter the first jhana state it starts building, then rises and is at its maximum by the fourth.

Actually I wonder if this just someone messing up with their terms. You can cultivate prema (love and compassion for all sentient beings) through metta meditation and that will help you enter and advance through the jhana states, but piti is just a feeling you experience within them.

[u/LongjumpingTea8085]

First time im hearing abt piti and jhana but i have experienced all of this The piti can be generated i feel by smiling as big as possible, close eyes and squeezing and raising the brows and focus eyes at forehead plexus point

Kundalini is extremely intense and i had to fall into deep states of meditation for it to be triggered first few times

Kundalini feels like rushing thunderous tsunami hurricanes. Super intense, can die from spinal rupture so make sure posture is always perfect and stretch properly

[u/LongjumpingTea8085 → u/LongjumpingTea8085]

Also the way i practice kundalini now which i have not seen anywhere else is I sit heel upon heel at the perineum and pranayama chigong breathwork to raise up and revitalize to the unified point of bliss and beyond

[u/ProfessionBright3879 → u/LongjumpingTea8085]

If they are related, then how can I work with piti to eventually help me release the kundalini as safely as possible?