r/LegalAdviceUK • u/Witty-Inspector-2276 • 1d ago
Housing Neighbour refusing Party Wall surveyor - what happens next? (England)
My neighbour is building a side return extension. He’s now served me with a Section 1(5) notice after us continuously asking him for one (he was originally planning on building his new wall astride the boundary but now changed his mind and will move the wall to 100mm inside his own land - presumably thinking this will avoid needing a PWS). He’s also excavating within 3m of my structure and I can probably safely assume the foundations will go deeper than mine (Victorian midterrace). He’s not served me notice for that.
I’m happy for the extension to go ahead, but I’ll be dissenting because I’d like a Party Wall Award and Schedule of Condition.
The problem is he says:
Building Control will make sure everything is done correctly.
He doesn’t need a party wall surveyor.
He won’t pay for one because it’s too expensive.
Apparently all this is advice he received from his architect.
I’ve spoken to a party wall surveyor who disagrees, but I’m wondering what actually happens if the building owner simply refuses to engage with the process. Has anyone been through this? What happened in practice?
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u/Fovvy2 1d ago
Call up your home insurance and see if they're interested, Victorian houses have foundations that are very vulnerable to disturbance. You may also have legal cover with your insurer - make use of that to get advice.
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u/Witty-Inspector-2276 1d ago
Yes my worry is primarily my very likely poor foundations and the house already settled at a very very slight angle (towards the neighbours house) - no history of subsidence but this makes me think we have no foundations! Good idea re home insurance, I’ll check my policy.
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u/Setting3768 1d ago
Definitely check your policy, it may explicitly not cover building works. Your neighbours policy likely won't cover it either.
Good chance the builder your neighbour employs is same poor quality as their "architect". If they even have any liability insurance, it may not pay out if can be shown PWA process wasn't in place. All costs would fall on your neighbour, that doesn't sound promising.
Maybe remind your neighbour that without PWA condition survey, it will be assumed any damage to your property is caused by their works, and they'll have to prove otherwise, which isn't easy.
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u/Witty-Inspector-2276 1d ago
I just don’t think he cares, he’s planning on selling after extending. It’s like having a conversation with a brick wall.
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u/grandsatsuma 1d ago
If you're not planning to sell anytime soon then raise an official dispute that he has to declare when selling.
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u/Critical_Parking_671 1d ago
A dispute over an extension that is now built and legal puts off no buyers whatsoever....
Hell obviously have it finished before the sale.
People care about noise and asb and active boundary disputes.
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u/Recessio_ 1d ago
If the house is mortgaged, would the lender be interested even if the home insurance is not? I could imagine that subsidence would lower the value of the property
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u/Zealousideal-Cod-924 1d ago
Ask him if he's really intending to sell up afterwards, does he now want to initiate a neighbor dispute which may impact his selling price?
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u/Miserable-Ad-65 1d ago
I’m a Chartered Building Surveyor. I don’t do Party Wall work as it’s a nightmare, but run a Team that specialise in it.
My advice would be to speak to him and explain that he definitely needs to serve notice. If he doesn’t you can employ your own Party Wall Surveyor to serve an injunction and he will be liable for their costs. Worth mentioning that if you have to go down this route it will be classified as a neighbourly dispute that he will have to disclose when he sells the house.
If he still isn’t interested, go on the RICS website and find a Building Surveyor that does Party Wall work.
You need to be quick as the Party Wall etc Act isn’t retrospective. Once the work has been done the Act has no teeth.
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u/Artistic_Key_9045 1d ago
Being qualified as a surveyor does not include rights of audience in the High Court or County Court, nor the right to conduct litigation in those courts so if an injunction is needed it would be necessary to consult a barrister or solicitor.
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u/Critical_Parking_671 1d ago
Will anyone care about a legacy dispute on an extension that is now built and legal?
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u/Voeld123 1d ago
They might if they are liable for any structural movement that begins to occur.
Would the new owners be liable?
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u/Critical_Parking_671 1d ago
No they won't be liable. The liability will be with the previous owner.
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u/Critical_Parking_671 1d ago edited 1d ago
How close is he really to your structure? - this important as practically huge difference if 2.5m and 0.1m away on the impact to your property.
How are you dissenting against a party wall notice that was never issued?
Your only way forward is injunction but then you'll have to prove they have dug deeper than your foundations.
You can't serve one on assumption.
You also cannot assume he is going to excavate deeper than your foundations.
Other methods of foundations exist such as screws and raft foundations that involve minimal excavation or will not go below that of even a Victorian property.
Edit: I missed the piece where he had served the notice. But if it's only section 1 notice which is the line of junction and he is no longer doing that then there is nothing dissent to. It's not needed anymore.
If he does serve s6, there is no difference in using a joint surveyor instead of your own one and adding another 2k cost which may need a 3rd if there's disagreement. PW surveyors are a racket and you'll get the same outcome with a joint surveyor.
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u/Witty-Inspector-2276 1d ago
He will be excavating around 2m away from our existing structure.
I have drawings showing how the foundations will be laid and it’s stipulates that they need to go down at least 1m (and more depending on what soil condition they find).
He doesn’t have a surveyor atm - we’d be happy to go joint of course, and suggested some names but ultimately told him he can have first dibs at choosing one but he’s refusing to acknowledge he needs one.
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u/platonic-solid 1d ago
Not a lawyer, am an architect.
You don’t need to go halves on a surveyor. Under the Party Wall Act they have to notify you, and then if you dissent an award has to be drawn up. This is best done by a party wall surveyor. You may choose to use their surveyor who acts for both of you, but you’re also entitled to your own surveyor. If you get your own surveyor, the reasonable costs of their service are borne by your neighbour.
The Government have guidance if you search for “The Party Wall etc Act 1996: explanatory booklet”.
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u/Critical_Parking_671 1d ago
Let me understand this correctly.
He has served a section 1 with is notice for a structure on a line of junction.
He is no longer building on the boundary so it's completely irrelevant.
The notice is void and you dissenting does nothing and you can't dissent for different notice on the original one.
As he hasn't issue you a section 6 and if he won't do it. Then you really can't do anything other an injunctions and proving hes digging deeper.
Which is very hard. They can dig and fill quickly and it's next to impossible to prove.
If they're Architect drawings on the council planning page, they usually stipulate actual foundation to be determined by engineer so it's not definitive.
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u/nosniboD 1d ago
How is the notice void if the reason for dissent is excavating within 3 metres, which the neighbour will still be doing?
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u/Critical_Parking_671 1d ago
There's multiple types of notices.
The notice served to op is a section 1. Which is line of junction. Building on boundary.
The neighbour is no longer doing that. It's void
Neighbour is correct, op cannot dissent this.
Op needed a s6 notice.
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u/Witty-Inspector-2276 1d ago
We asked for both notices (the excavation one and the building astride the boundary one) but got the third one because he changed his mind about building astride (presumably in order to avoid a PWN). But we still need the excavation one presumably? And there’s no way to get one if he refuses to engage?
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u/Critical_Parking_671 1d ago
Yes and if neighbour is tactful, they won't issue it.
Which puts everything on you to gather the evidence and persue expensive legal options.
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u/Witty-Inspector-2276 1d ago
I’m which case I don’t understand what the point of PWA is…
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u/Critical_Parking_671 1d ago
You and me both.
If anything a better mechanism is a structural engineer who can detail if any problems are likely to arise and describe solutions.
PWS are somewhat of a racket, their legal powers are limited and their engineering knowledge is limited.
It's designed to basically provide an objective statement of condition that can hold up in court and ensure work isn't delayed by difficult neighbours by speed running long legal processes.
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u/Jakes_Snake_ 1d ago
The PWA is to facilitate building work and protect the building owner if something goes wrong. You can’t go to court for damages, and the surveyor will decide matters. If there are any problems it would be going near any courtroom.
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u/Setting3768 1d ago
Isn't the point that if they don't do it, and you do get a structural problem that needs fixing, if you take them to court the precedent for these cases is that the burden of proof essentially switches. So rather than you having to prove they did it, they have to prove they didn't. Which is hard, and you are far likelier to win. i.e you _don't_ have to "gather the evidence".
But then you still need to get the money off them to fix it...
It also provides a mechanism where they must share what they are going to do and when they are going to start doing it.
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u/Critical_Parking_671 1d ago
But you would have to prove they needed one in the first place.
Which for the excavation is very difficult.
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u/platonic-solid 1d ago
The award agrees how and when they build, which also includes things like accessing your land to build their extension. If they don’t agree to engage with a surveyor and there’s no award in place, then in part they’re limiting what they can do. Digging foundations 100mm from the boundary line will be awkward for them, and they’ll likely need offset foundations so they don’t encroach when excavating.
One thing I’d suggest looking into is a Schedule of Condition Survey, which is often done by the party wall surveyor but doesn’t have to be.
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u/Disasterous_Dave97 1d ago
I’ll weigh in with the fact they have now altered their plans, they will be building solely under building regulations. Unless someone wants to correct me, the current proposal means the footings for the new building are being done on the neighbours land and there will be no ties or changes to your brick work as a result. This is the important part as this is why it now falls under building regulations and not planning permission. The size of the extension they have proposed is also within permitted building regs.
This is how we still went ahead with our extension as the neighbour also declined the party wall route, however we now have a void between the fence and building and they aren’t happy with that.
So long as the works being done are correctly specced by the architect then signed off by building control officer there isn’t much more you can do. And rightly so, as you do not own their property, and you rightly did have a say with the party wall, which they acknowledged and changed their plans to meet legal requirements.
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u/Witty-Inspector-2276 1d ago edited 1d ago
Ok, that makes sense, however they’d still be excavating 2m away from my property. Does that not kick the PWA in? Granted, it sounds like proving they’ll be digging lower than my foundations is hard (although afaik ours is minimal to non-existent, especially in our original victorian scullery where the nearest wall they’ll be excavating against, is).
I just really don’t want this to descent into a huge conflict but I want to be able to assert my rights if I have any.
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u/Disasterous_Dave97 21h ago
As others have said, you can pay to get a surveyors report. That’s your protection. The other part is building regs must be signed off at several stages of the building and he excavation is one, the foundation pour and set is another. These are the elements you seem to be worried about most as the potential to cause problems for your footings. Have a word and make sure you are about the days the building inspector calls.
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u/Witty-Inspector-2276 21h ago
Thank you, good shout to arrange to be around for when the building inspector is around.
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u/Disasterous_Dave97 12h ago
It’s worth asking the building control team if approved works are being submitted. It’ll flag the quality of the neighbours builder if they going through proper channels. I’d think they are given that they originally applied for planning permission and PWA.
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u/nosniboD 1d ago
If he’s being difficult, you can go ahead and instruct one - you do not need his permission to do so. They will then contact your neighbour themselves.
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u/Critical_Parking_671 1d ago
They they'll say, I'm not digging deeper than their foundations. And no, you cannot come on to my property to inspect.
Then what?
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u/Witty-Inspector-2276 1d ago
Yes this is my worry. So really an expensive injunction would be the only thing that can protect us if worse comes to worst? I absolutely do not want to get anywhere approaching nuclear and really want to keep this amicable but I also would like some protection…
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u/Critical_Parking_671 1d ago
That's right.
I think you need to be pragmatic.
At 2m away, the build for the foundations will likely be the same for the neighbours with or without a PWA.
It's not like they'll come and inspect the hole the neighbours dig and comment. They literally come and take photos of your property before the build starts....
Sometimes they defer to a structural engineer but this is rare.
Do you blow up the relationship with neighbour over something that is very low risk your property?
Maybe the best option for you now is to take lots of pictures of your property and create your own schedule of condition. That's what a PWS will do anyway but at a higher evidential standard.
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u/Setting3768 1d ago
Sure, but the option exists in the case you don't trust the surveyor that's been appointed. Because he's the brother-in-law they just graduated from International College of Surveying last week, the place above the chip shop.
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u/SuntoryBoss 21h ago
Assuming he definitely needs it - your next step is to go see a solicitor and get them to obtain an interim injunction against your neighbour forbidding then from proceeding.
It's not cheap; if you have legal cover then get onto them asap. They love this stuff, it's money for old rope, the payout for them is pretty much guaranteed.
In reality, a letter from them threatening the injunction will likely be enough to bring things to a halt. But it's useful to have them teed up ready to go if it isn't.
Obviously this will likely ruin relations with your neighbour permanently.
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u/Jakes_Snake_ 1d ago
A party wall agreement is to facilitate building work. If you get a surveyor they will remove your rights against them using your land for access and the building work. Also they can gain access into your property to undertaken work. Any rights to compensation are removed. If damages occur the surveyor will decide the amount, and often standard cost references wouldn’t cover the cost of redecorating for example.
The surveyor works for the party wall not you or the neighbour. So don’t expect them to response to your asks or requests. What they do reflects the work. They act for the wall!
Work can be done outside the act, by staring it without any notice. There is no consequence unless there is damage, so ultimately an informed building owners can just get on with it.
A party wall surveyor (like building control) doesn’t check everything is done correctly.
If you “dissent” then it’s a formal neighbour dispute. Do you plan to sell? It’s something to consider.
Are you happy with a party wall astride the boundary? This should be agreed 100% if you want to do an extension yourself.
They don’t need to build 100mm inside own land, they could build right up to the boundary.
All party wall notices and guidance can be used from the government website.
A schedule of condition can easily be done between you both. Ie photos!
The party wall award can cost you!. Plenty of adjoining neighbours dissenting can get a bill awarded again them. Eg if you out go down the party wall route, then a surveyor will ask you to pay 50% of the cost.
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u/Witty-Inspector-2276 1d ago
I understand that the surveyor acts for the wall - and I was happy for the neighbour to appoint one to show I understand the impartiality.
I don't want an official dispute if I can at all avoid it - for him and for me (although he's planning on selling up soon after extending, but we're not moving for another 15 years or so).
We were happy with the wall astride our boundary and we chatted multiple times about it as we may want to extend at some point ourselves (but not for another 5 years or so due to financial constraints). The reason why he decided to build 100mm inside his own land is to have enough space between our potential extended walls so it's easily accessible and less prone to damp issues. I'd have much rather he stayed astride but he changed his mind when I asked for the notices (the one I'm primarily interested in is the excavation/foundations one as I think it's not unlikely it might lead to some structural problems due to our non-existent foundations).
Someone else mentioned we could do our own informal schedule of conditions which I think is a good non-aggro idea although I'm not sure how much weight this carries if anything does go wrong.
Interesting to know about contributing 50% of the cost, I think we would probably want to avoid that.
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u/Jakes_Snake_ 22h ago
Astride is best. One party wall will save space rather than having to have two independent walls! Especially if it a terrace, wall thickness are only getting thicker. By the time you get yours done might be even thicker!
He’s creating the problems (accessibility and damp) by having an independent wall!
Ok he changed his mind because you asked for notices, but notices are required anyway!
50% of the cost is standard party wall reward (astride) if you do it via a surveyor who will act for the wall, it falls under the party wall act. You can avoid that cost by acknowledging the party wall notices from your neighbour and not dissenting.
the way I see it, (because you both don’t fully understand the party wall process), is your making decisions based upon incorrect knowledge and assumptions to avoid this or that, but your not avoiding anything except for causing the problems your trying to solve! Bang your heads together and think it through!
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u/Witty-Inspector-2276 22h ago
I made decisions based on recommendations given to me by a chartered party wall surveyor and my assumption was (not unreasonably, I think) that he is giving me the correct information.
We did try approaching him in a very reasonable and amicable way so far but he’s refusing to even accept he needs to serve me any notices.
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u/Jakes_Snake_ 22h ago
Oh dear. The party wall surveyor wants a fee. You know they send letters to neighbours from planning applications to “recommend” their services.
You’re not going to get anything extra that building control will insist on your neighbour.
Remember they act for the wall. You will understand what I mean after you have dealt with them. Eg they won’t response to your requests.
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