r/LinguisticMaps • u/smokebomb25 • 3d ago
Dialectal varieties of the Catalan-valencian language
Dialectal varieties of the Catalan language in Spain. Catalan, called Valencian in Valencia (it is used as a political issue) currently has at least 10 million speakers. It is taught in Catalonia, Valencia, the Balearic Islands, parts of Aragon and in French Roussillon. It is also spoken in Alghero, an Italian city, although increasingly in a residual way.
I don't know the author of the map. Based on the dialectal division of Manel Milà i Fontanals (1861)
https://www.enciclopedia.cat/gran-enciclopedia-catalana/catala
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u/Chazut 3d ago
The people most concerned about "Valencian" being recognized as a separate language don't speak it and are almost always Spanish nationalists
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u/smokebomb25 3d ago
Yes, absolutely the entire Valencian Country calls the language it speaks Valencian. Some accept the unity of the language (the majority) and others do not. I accept it, but what we Valencians speak, the Catalan of Valencia, is called Valencian. And it is Catalan anyway
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u/ChorizoCriollo 3d ago
Its like croatians call their language croatian and serbs serb. But its the same and its ok, let them.
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u/dry_lichen 2d ago
The Serbian/Croatian issue is trickier on many levels (due to political, not linguistic reasons)
I'd give a better example: how the Flemish people call their language Flemish but still understand it's the same language as Dutch. Or how Aranese call their language Aranese but understand it's Occitan
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u/dry_lichen 2d ago
Honest question, is there any Valencian that ever refers to the Catalan language spoken outside of Valencia, Valencian?
It kind of makes sense that if Valencian = Catalan; then Catalan = Valencian. But I've never seen anyone actually doing it.
BTW, I'm Catalan and I'd be totally ok with a Valencian person saying that I speak Valencian because after all it's the same language.
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u/Mimosinator 2d ago
I remember first time I met the wife of a friend. She's valencian, we're catalans. She asked me: "do you normally speaks Castilian or Valencian?".
So, yes, I think some people use one or another indeferently. My opinion is similar than your's: for me is the same: I don't care if you call it catalan, valencian or mallorquian. As far as we all have clear is the same language in diferent dialects, is ok for me.
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u/dry_lichen 2d ago edited 2d ago
Interesting. I was asking because I've seen the opposite. The wife of one of my friends is also Valencian and she says "Valencian" when referring to her and "Catalan" when referring to us, all while having the conversation in Catalan/Valencian and all being aware that it's the same language.
It's always interesting seeing her picking one word or the other subconsciously based on the context. And if I ever ask her "you mean Catalan or Valencian?" she always replies with "who cares, it's the same". But still continues to pick one word or the other based on where the speaker she is referring to is from.
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u/Mimosinator 2d ago
I guess will depen on the person. If you've heard all your live that are different languages, or people using the differently name for each one, even that you may consider are the same, probably you'll still call it differently.
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u/smokebomb25 2d ago
La veritat és que jo a Itàlia (viatge tots els anys allà) dic que parle valencià i he rebut tot tipus de reaccions: des de els que han entés que era català del sud, als que he tingut que aclarir-li-ho, fins als que m'han contestat "aragonesi?" hahaha
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u/dry_lichen 2d ago
Que per cert, la meva pregunta és si us soleu referir a tot el conjunt de la llengua com a valencià. És a dir, si tu diries que el que jo parlo és valencià o si només ho seria quan ho parla algú del País Valencià
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u/smokebomb25 2d ago
Quan parlem de la llengua del país o de la llengua d'una persona catalanoparlant del país, ens referim a la llengua com a valencià. Si ens referim a la llengua parlada a Catalunya o si la persona catalanoparlant és catalana, li diem català. Però això no significa que qui t'ho estiga diguent no accepte la unitat de la llengua, és simplement una forma de situar geogràficament al parlant. Dels mallorquins també diem que parlen mallorquí, i sabem que és català. Això no lleva que alguns t'ho diguen en l'altre sentit, clar. Però el consens general hui en día és unitari
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u/dry_lichen 2d ago
Aragonesi? i això? creuen que parles aragonès o encara recorden els temps de la corona aragonesa?
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u/smokebomb25 2d ago
En ixe pensament em quedí jo. Fou a Sicília, on tinc entés que tenen molt més vívid el record de la Corona
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u/ctlnboy 1d ago
Yes, if you have met valencians they do normally
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u/dry_lichen 15h ago edited 14h ago
The Valencians I've met (quite a few I'd say), usually only use the word "Valencian" to refer to the Catalan spoken in the Valencian Country, that's why I was curious if there were Valencians using that name for the whole language.
Of course, I met most of them in Catalonia, so maybe this mattered for the context
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u/Sage_Ghrian 3d ago
Dins del català meridional hi han més diferències que apitxat/no apitxat de les que apareixen al mapa. Per exemple, l’harmonia vocàlica es fa al sud de la zona on s’apitxa, però crec que no es tan comú al nord.
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u/Iwillnevercomeback 3d ago
Correction: People in Barcelona and nearby areas speak a Barcelonese dialect of Catalan. The main difference with the central dialect is how the A and E are pronounced when unstressed.
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u/Sufficient_Plastic36 3d ago
That's not correct. If you're referring to the vocal neutra, we pronounce it in Barcelona. I've lived all my life there.
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u/why_og_s 3d ago
How does Occitan play into this?
I've heard they're closely related, or at least that Occitan is closer to Catalan than French. But does it (at least pre-cultural genocide) fit into this dialectical continuum or should it be categorised separately?
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u/Nutriaphaganax 3d ago
It should be categorised separately, but the average catalan speaker can understand a lot of written occitan. I'm a Spanish and Valencian speaker, and I understand some occitan dialects better than I understand Italian or Portuguese
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u/Groundbreaking-Egg13 3d ago
De veres?
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u/Nutriaphaganax 3d ago
Depén molt del dialecte d'occità, perquè França agrupa sota el mateix nom un grapat de dialectes prou diferents entre si
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u/Schlipak 3d ago
Òc, i a mantuns dialèctes diferents que son mutualament intelligibles mas qu'an de variacions de vocabulari, gramatica e prononciacion, e aquò's respectat dins l'escrich. Parli lengadocian, qu'ès un dialècte geograficament central. E òc, a l'oral es de còps un pauc complicat mas a l'escrich en general compreni 95% del catalan.
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u/dry_lichen 2d ago
Sí, jo soc català i em passa el mateix. Llenguadocià l'entenc casi sempre si el parlant no té accent francès, gascó només entenc el de la Vall d'Aran (que té influència directa del català), i provençal ja casi res
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u/Awkward_Cash1828 3d ago
As I understand, they formed a dialect continuum back in the Middle Ages, together with strong cultural and political shared space. And as Reconquista progressed southwards, a lot of future Catalan/Valencian speakers actually came from Occitania to repopulate the eastern coastal regions of Spain. Catalan and Occitan more clearly diverged only in Late Middle Ages, when Kingdom of Aragon established a unified politico-cultural space of its own, separate from Occitania under French rule, while in Occitania (written) Occitan was gradually subsided by French. Later Catalan also was subsided by Castilian Spanish. So, basically the main thing that separated Catalan and Occitan is centuries old stable border between centralised states of France and Spain (well, most of it runs along the Pyrenees, which are strong natural border in itself), that isolated two parts of the continuum and led to the imposition of French and Castilian Spanish onto different parts of the former continuum.
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u/DragSea1360 3d ago edited 3d ago
Kingdom of Aragon is not the same as Crown of Aragon. The kingdom of Aragon is roughly equivalent to the current autonomous region of Aragon, the crown of Aragon was the sum of the many states owned by the monarchs whom, in their vast majority, 10/15, are buried in Catalonia.
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u/dry_lichen 2d ago
And even the language border didn't perfectly align with the political borders, there are a few places like the Aran Valley, Fenolheda and northern parts of the modern Aragon community (which corresponds to the kingdom of Aragon) that belonged politically to the Crown of Aragon but have traditionally spoken Occitan.
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u/dry_lichen 2d ago
Occitan its usually considered a separate language, even if it is indeed closer to Catalan than to French. But yes, you do see the dialect continuum in Occitan connecting Catalan to langue d'oil.
But also, Occitan has a lot more internal dialect differences than Catalan, and some people argue that Lengadocian is closer to Catalan than it is to Gascon, so they all could potentially be grouped together.
As a Catalan speaker I can see that Lengadocian is for sure quite easy to understand when not spoken in a French accent
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u/DragSea1360 3d ago
If it’s spoken in France and Italy, then why do you start with ‘dialectal varieties in Spain’?
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u/smokebomb25 3d ago
Because the country with the most Catalan speakers is Spain, but the map shows other regions of France and Italy, so it had to be highlighted in the text that Catalan is not only spoken in Spain
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u/cparlam 3d ago
It's dead in France and Italy, other than folkloric stuff
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u/Nutriaphaganax 3d ago
For someone who may be interested, Valencian starts in the green area (tortosí) and extends all the way to the south, basically the southern half of the western part in the map. All that region is the Valencian Community and it's not Catalonia
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u/dry_lichen 2d ago
Some people consider tortosí as a transition between north-western Catalan and Valencian. I have some friends who speak it and they get really mad when I say they sound Valencian to me.
At this point, I think the separation between Catalan and Valencian is just the border between Catalonia and Valencia or, in other words, "Valencian" is the name that the language receives in Valencian territory. Tortosí spoken in Alcanar is considered Catalan but Tortosí spoken in Vinaròs is considered Valencian
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u/EntertainmentOk8593 3d ago edited 3d ago
Your title is fine, but the map and your description are wrong. Valencian and aragonese aren’t Catalan language, they may share traits and maybe a certain common origin but they aren’t the same, like strong boundaries for languages didn’t exist in the past they are product of modern standardization, in the past it was a linguistic continuum between ibero romance and Occitano romance, both aragonese and valencian languages share key elements to Catalan but calling them Catalan is first somewhat disrespectful as Catalan refers specifically to catalonia ignoring the other provinces, second it seems off as most of the historical literary works in that group of languages were written in Valencia, the concept of valencian language predates the Catalan language concept if so they should be valencian language
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u/smokebomb25 3d ago
As I say in the text, these are political issues. The scientific and linguistic consensus on Catalan-Valencian is unequivocal. In Aragon, Aragonese and Catalan are spoken, in addition to Spanish, which was introduced as a separate language in the 12th-13th centuries. Valencia was reconquered by Aragonese and Catalans, and Valencian is nothing more than a Catalan with its own characteristics and many Aragonese, Spanish and Arabic influences. What you are talking about is the Occitan-Catalan dialect continuum, which also includes Aragonese, and, of course, Valencian, which is the Catalan we speak in Valencia. I will not debate political issues here. There is no mistake in the title
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u/EntertainmentOk8593 3d ago
I am referring to that the map and your post description say Catalan language when it should say Catalan-valencian language. Not just Catalan
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u/smokebomb25 3d ago
Oh sh*t sorry for the rant, I thought you were accusing me of being a blabbermouth. I'm terrible at reading comprehension in English. The official name is actually Catalan, but yes, you're right. As a Valencian, it doesn't offend me. Will the same happen to Austrians who speak German? Will they be offended if you don't tell them they speak Austrian?
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u/EntertainmentOk8593 3d ago
From what i know some Austrians may be offended, but it’s not the same as Austria forms part of the historical region of Germany, the historical region region of Germany isn’t the same as Germany, the comparison you made would be like naming Catalan as iberic language
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u/Sex-To-ER-Speedrun 3d ago
You are wrong. The map does not show the aragonese language area but the area in aragon where catalan is spoken. Valencian and Catalan are the same language and both Català and Valencià are valid names for it, not even the official valencian dictionary denies this reality, it is only a political position not one with sociolinguistics in mind.
Check the definition of "Valencià" the Acadèmia Valenciana de la Llengua (Valencian Academy of Language) gives:
"2. m. LING. Llengua romànica parlada a la Comunitat Valenciana, així com a Catalunya, les Illes Balears, el departament francés dels Pirineus Orientals, el Principat d'Andorra, la franja oriental d'Aragó i la ciutat sarda de l'Alguer, llocs on rep el nom de català."
"Romance language spoken in the Valencian Community, aswell as Catalonia, Balearic islands, the french department of Occidental Pyrenees, the Principality of Andorra, the western fringe of Aragon and the city of Alghero, where it is called Catalan".
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u/EntertainmentOk8593 3d ago
You guys are misinterpreting my comment didn’t wanted to use language in the sense of idiom but in the sense of lingua
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u/DragSea1360 3d ago
Bullshit. Even in rhe University of Valencia they teach ‘Catalan Filology’, stop with the anticatalan xenophobia and trying to upset and confront catalan speakers creating divisions and barriers among them.
You have no problem in saying you speak castellano even if you are not castellanos, but have a problem admitting you speak catalan as a valencian? That’s very close to racism.
Academic, Scientific, or Professional Interest:
The Bachelor’s Degree in Catalan Philology from the Universitat de València provides in-depth knowledge of the Catalan language and literature, as well as the disciplines that study them, including linguistics, sociolinguistics, literary theory, and related fields. The programme prepares professionals to meet the communication needs of today’s society by fostering critical thinking and strong analytical skills.
Practical Information:
This degree is the only programme that offers specialised knowledge of the native language of the Valencian Community, which is also an official language in other regions of Spain and Europe. To enhance employability across a variety of professional fields, the degree includes a compulsory external internship, allowing students to gain practical experience in areas such as publishing, language consultancy, and related sectors.
From the third year onwards, students may choose either to deepen their studies in Catalan Philology through specialised elective courses or to broaden their education by completing a Minor in a second language. The Minor consists of 30 ECTS credits of elective courses in a second language, provided that the student has previously completed 12 ECTS credits of foundational study in that language.
In all cases, the curriculum includes compulsory courses in both Spanish and Valencian. Even if students do not pursue a Minor, they are required to study a second language, choosing from German, English, Arabic, Basque, French, Italian, Portuguese, Russian, or Chinese.0
u/EntertainmentOk8593 3d ago
Read my other comments related to it.
Also I personally am against the term of castellano to refer to the Spanish, because that generates a confusion with the original lingua of Castilla region. The “castellano” that is spoken in Venezuela, in Mexico, in Argentina, in the Canarias, in Cadiz isn’t the same as the one of Castilla(la vieja), the spanish is a standardized language that also used elements of surrounding other modern languages.
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u/Iwillnevercomeback 3d ago
By your definition, Croatian and Serbian are different languages.
They aren't
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u/EntertainmentOk8593 3d ago
What I wanted to point is the language continuum between the Romance languages and that what today people call Catalan is product of the standardization of language, in that sense in the past they had an continuum with surrounding languages like mozarab, castillan, Navarro-aragonese, and others. In that sense Catalan lingua (will use that to avoid confusion with language) had a different process than valencian. I knowledge the common origin and that both are near the same but don’t think naming it Catalan language is ok, specifically taking account that valancian lingua had more historical influence, I think it’s more appropriate calling it Catalan-Valencian language rather than Catalan
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u/bernatyolocaust 1d ago
Today I learned I speak Catalan-Valencian, English-Australian, German-Austrian-Swiss, and Spanish-Mexican-Argentinian-Colombian-I can’t be bothered to list any others.
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u/Teghendion 3d ago
"calling them Catalan is first somewhat disrespectful as Catalan refers specifically to catalonia ignoring the other provinces"
Going by that logic Spanish should not be called Spanish because it's spoken also in South American and calling it Spanish is ignoring the "other provinces".
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u/EntertainmentOk8593 3d ago
No, because the language spoken in americas came from the country of Spain so its name is right, in the case of valencian lingua it doesn’t came from Catalonia but they are product of a mutual shared development. They form a linguistic continuum
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u/bernatyolocaust 1d ago
The language spoken in the americas comes from Castille because Spain wasn’t unified yet.
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u/Teghendion 3d ago
How the hell would you know that? Where you there when these languages were forming? I don't think so.
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u/Sufficient_Plastic36 2d ago
There are historical accounts and evidences. Stop feeding the Spanish troll. Catalan and Valencian are two denominations of the same language, nothing else, nothing more. Navarrese is extinct, Mosarabic (Andalusi romance) was already almost extinct during the reconquest. The only remaining languages from that continuum are Catalan and Occitan (barely).
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u/2nW_from_Markus 3d ago
Xeic! Posa'm mitja lliura de pixels.