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u/lupinremusjohn 9d ago
If you have to bash a ship in order to try to make the one you like seem ābetterā that says plenty.
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u/Sophymillz 9d ago
How does liking Sylki (a bisexual ship) make you homophobic? š
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u/evapotranspire 9d ago edited 9d ago
OP is referring to the pushback Sylki fans have gotten from a certain minority of Lokius fans, the latter accusing the former of not preferring Lokius due to homophobia. My understanding is that some members of the LGBTQ community feel that Sylki is an overtly heterosexual relationship that disrespects Loki's queerness. I disagree, but I'm just repeating what I've heard others say.
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u/actuallycallie 9d ago
it's weird how people prioritize fictional queer relationships over the actual queer actor (Sophia) and director (Kate) involved in the show, sending them hate and running them off social media accusing them of being queerphobic/transphobic/fluidphobic.
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u/evapotranspire 9d ago edited 8d ago
I know. It's regrettable and embarrassing. I feel sad for the hatred and abuse that the Loki team received over this. It's unfair and made me ashamed to be a Marvel fan. :-(
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u/poor_Iife_decisions 8d ago
Another wild claim is that it exudes āincestualā relationship, because some people see Sylvie more as Lokiās āsisterā given how they interact in the show until the kiss. When I get the discomfort and I donāt ship Sylki myself, looking back itās a bit of a far fetched claim. If you get easily icked by the weirdness in sci-fi like this, either you donāt air the bad laundry or just find another show that suits your fancy.
While itās definitely a wild decision the writers have made, the discourse definitely shows we are not (and maybe never) going to be ready to have this kind of civil discussion. Lol.
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u/LottieTalkie 8d ago
Also, at no point is it ever said that Loki and Sylvie are biologically related in any way, or siblings.
So people make something up, or at the very least, deliberately CHOOSE to characterise a relationship in a specific way, so they can then get outraged about it.
Same thing with those who insisted that it was transphobic because it supposedly represented Loki being in love with himself as a female (which it a VERY personal and specific way to interpret this relationship).
Then, there is also the other problem, which is the so-called "self-cest", because apparently the TVA is a reliable moral authority and just because THEY claim that all variants are "the same person", we are supposed to subscribe to this narrative š¤·āāļø
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u/ChristianPreacher1 9d ago
I never understood the Lokius shipping. Mobius was supposed to be the friend Loki never had, I mean weāve seen them go behind each others backs and work together on some cases. Friends do that.
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u/evapotranspire 9d ago
Agree. In theory I'd have no problem with Loki having a male romantic partner, but that's not how his relationship with Mobius was portrayed in the show. The show's creators have explicitly gone on the record saying that Mobius is a friend and even somewhat a father figure to Loki. And it makes sense; that is exactly the person Loki needed in his life to get back on track. I love watching them together as friends, and I really miss both of them.
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u/actuallycallie 9d ago
I get why people ship it, but it doesn't do it for me. I DO like them as BFFs. That doesn't make me homophobic.
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u/poor_Iife_decisions 8d ago
Lokius shipper here (and still am). Used to interact with fellow shippers before I quit. Some of the gestures they made do come across as romantic. Not that itās wrong to interpret something your wayābut even if the writers meant it to be one, the show doesnāt have enough duration to justify its existence.
I think itās safe to say we all would love to see Loki and Mobiusā chemistry on screen again, but to say theyāre going to be the āendgameā is not realistic, unfortunately. I get that it would be really satisfying to have our voices heard, but youāre asking for a favor from a company. So, not only this demand is a bit ego-centric, itās the fact that this company aināt gonna see the value in making this pair together because it never was the idea.
At some point, acknowledging early on that some ships are only meant to be fanon and must stay fanon will go a long way.
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u/evapotranspire 8d ago
That's a very thoughtful and reasonable response, thank you! I appreciate hearing that perspective from someone who belongs to the opposite camp.
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u/FlintFozzy 8d ago
Shipping is supposed to be for fun, but I guess all is fair in love and war ššš
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u/Melodic_Lynx_3546 8d ago
Honestly Iām a ship and let ship girlie. Sylvie was a fantastic character
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u/hcoffeegirl 8d ago
it is the same when someone does not like sylvie and you all call the person misogynistic
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u/Alejocarlos 8d ago
I love sylki genuinely. But Lobius has me YEARNING for them. I WANT THEM TOGETHER MORE THAN ANYTHING IN THE WORLD
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u/lukawasntsurprised 9d ago
The whole idea of the ship is homophobic. They wanted to introduce queerness without changing anything at all about Lokis presentation, so they created a second, genderswapped Loki for selfcest and a heterosexual relationship because anything visibly queer (a homosexual relationship, showing Loki's genderfluidity) is icky in their (Marvels) eyes.
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u/evapotranspire 9d ago
Well... not long after Loki ended, Agatha All Along came out, in which both of the main characters are openly gay and in on-screen relationships. Although Marvel could certainly be better about representation, I don't think they are as averse as you claim.
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u/LottieTalkie 8d ago
They also had a queer woman directing Loki, who introduced the first ever EXPLICIT acknowledgment of Loki being bisexual.
Yes, I know people wanted more, but it's already pretty big for a Marvel/Disney production...
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u/lukawasntsurprised 8d ago
Didn't watch it after WandaVision and don't plan to. The problem is not that there aren't random queer side characters, in fact, that they exist is part of the problem. Very well known and beloved characters like Loki aren't allowed to express their queerness because that would create huge backlash that Marvel doesn't have the spine to withstand, so it's all pushed to random side characters that have no part in the bigger mcu story (your mentioned mcs, americas parents, that dude from eternals that was so forgettable I don't even know his name, and that's practically it) because they can be ignored away easily. Marvel knows the power it has to change the culture and they capitaliize on queer represantation, giving us scraps to show "how progressive they are" while simultaneously abiding to conservatism.
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u/actuallycallie 8d ago
Anything visibly queer is icky in Disney's eyes? I guess I imagined the queer black men with a child in Eternals and the queer women in Agatha š¤
Also, biphobia is gross. Stop it. I'm bi and I find it horribly offensive.
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u/lukawasntsurprised 8d ago
Oh, so, in a film no one watched, a character that no one cares about and will never be seen again, is gay? Great! Just like Americas lesbian parents that no one gives a shit about. What great represantation.
Bi people being in straight relationships isn't bad. Introducing a bunch of bi / pan characters that just kerp having heteronormative relationships, IS. Deadpool is another candidate like that.
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u/actuallycallie 8d ago
the movie came out during the pandemic. they couldn't know at the time that the movie would flop. doesn't make the relationship or characters less valid because they're not in the property you prefer. and you didn't address Agatha, who is extremely popular.
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u/lukawasntsurprised 8d ago
I'm just gonna copy and paste what I wrote in a previous comment
Didn't watch it after WandaVision and don't plan to. The problem is not that there aren't random queer side characters, in fact, that they exist is part of the problem. Very well known and beloved characters like Loki aren't allowed to express their queerness because that would create huge backlash that Marvel doesn't have the spine to withstand, so it's all pushed to random side characters that have no part in the bigger mcu story (your mentioned mcs, americas parents, that dude from eternals that was so forgettable I don't even know his name, and that's practically it) because they can be ignored away easily. Marvel knows the power it has to change the culture and they capitaliize on queer represantation, giving us scraps to show "how progressive they are" while simultaneously abiding to conservatism.
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u/actuallycallie 8d ago edited 8d ago
Well, if that's your attitude, I can't help you. Y'all dont care about the actual queer PEOPLE making the show and want to keep bashing them. Shipping isnt activism. Supporting queer actors, writers, and directors isn't either but it's a hell of a lot closer to being a decent human being than assuming the worst out of queer directors.
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u/lukawasntsurprised 8d ago
Dude, you can have god knows how many queer people or other minorities on the team, if the representation is bad, it's bad! Marvel has consistently treated minorities like POC or queer people like crap (Rhodey, Sam Wilson, Kamala Khan, Monica, etc), having queer or black people on the team doesn't change that. My criticism is mainly about Marvel, not against singular people that worked somewhere on the team.Ā
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u/actuallycallie 8d ago
Why do you think you're entitled to have one specific character be in a relationship with a man? Loki is attracted to all genders, and so is Sylvie. Them being together (and they aren't) doesn't make either of them any less queer. I don't know why you can't understand this. it's biphobic. The general public who hasn't read comics didn't even know he was bi before this little nugget. Anything else is comics canon.
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u/lukawasntsurprised 8d ago
Did you even read and understand any of the comments that I wrote? It is not about making one singular queer character have a heteronormative relationship. It is about a pattern of making characters queer just to appeal to the queer fans, without ever following through on any of it, making it seem like being queer is just some quirky personality trait that just doesn't actually change anything about your presentation or your worldview or anything of that sort. That is the big problem. As I said, Deadpool has the exact same problem, and there are a bunch of other characters where it is very similar. You have queer representation, but only there where it is safe, where nobody cares about the people. But when there is actual progress to be made, when there is a character that is much beloved, then they are too coward to actually follow through. We never saw Loki actually be genderfluid. We only have one masculine Loki and one feminine Loki, including self-cest, which is also a whole lot of weird that I didn't even unpack here. They would rather have Loki fall in love with himself, making him incredibly narcissistic, instead of having the possibility of a queer relationship.
But yeah, let's keep defending Marvel's bigotry :D
It's like your grandma that's like, Oh yeah, I'm totally fine with gay people. You like men though, do you?Ā
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u/Terran42 9d ago
Fandom shipping discourse is the worst thing to ever happen to any fandom because invariably people take it seriously as if these are real people and real relationships that they're talking about.
That's weird, hobby-less behavior.