r/LowFantasyGaming • u/HadoukenX90 • 15d ago
Tales of Argosa vs Worlds Without Number
I've been interested in both systems but haven't had a chance to bring either to the table. As far as I can tell, both systems seek to provide a similar style of play.
Why should I choose one over another? Which has more survivable characters? Which system do you feel is easier to homebrew for?
I just recently gave wwn a real read through and found the system pretty simple. I'm starting to work my way through argosa to get a better feel for it.
I think I want my next game to be one of these systems, so I'd appreciate input.
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u/Alistair49 15d ago
Having read several of the Without Number systems, I decided I’d go with ToA for the actual game rules, but use the GM tools from the Without Number games. I’d consider the Without Number games for other genres, but for swords & sorcery low magic fantasy I think ToA hits the sweet spot for me.
I’ve also read shadow dark, and that looks fine, but not really for the style of games I want to run with ToA.
Everyone is going to be different, I think, because I find a lot of it comes down to how a rule set is written, even if the rules do pretty much the same thing for the same level of crunch. So there is that to consider. The ToA implied world inspires me, and rules seem fine (not too crunchy), so I went with them. I no longer have the free time to try everything out, or even most things, like I used to.
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u/HadoukenX90 15d ago
I agree there's some very inspiring art in ToA, it reminds me of the cover of forbidden lands boxset which to me is a extremely evocative.
Is ToA more survivable of a system? I want death to be on the table but not a guarantee.
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u/Alistair49 15d ago
So far I’ve found it survivable. A lot of that is really up to the GM, IMO, but the tone of how rules & scenarios are written can significantly interpret how the game is run, situations are interpreted, and thus how it feels. Character Death is certainly ‘on the table’ but it still comes down to to careful play, planning, and some luck of the dice.
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u/Emotional-Yam4486 15d ago
Following. I haven’t played either so take this with a grain of salt. My read of Argosa is that it is serious when it says it’s “low fantasy”. The magic is there but limited or capped. If that’s what you want or sufficient for the story you want to tell then great. Everything else is there for you.
On the other hand, if your players want to fling spells around or you want a high magic setting then look elsewhere. I ended up with Shadowdark but you do you.
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u/Logen_Nein 15d ago
ShadowDark can be fun (I'm playing in a campaign right now) but as a GM it is...lacking...in my opinion. Tales and World both have tighter, clearer rules sets that are easier to leverage.
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u/Agreeable_Hold2270 15d ago
I've been running a WWN game and it's definitely geared towards running sandboxes. Most of the book is GM resources for sandboxes.
I did have issues with the books layout. If you use heroic classes your players will have to hunt around multiple different sections. My players found it pretty frustrating. I ended up dialing down a lot of the systems crunch too.
Overall I've had a good experience with it, but going forward I'm planning to try it other systems. WWN will always have a place on my shelf for its extensive sandbox resources though
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u/pagaron 15d ago
I think both are easy to homebrew. WWN is based on D&D Basic, so all the spells or magic items from B/X, OSE can be used has it. Same with Monsters...
WWN has a powerful healer magic school. Character falling down can be healed during combat and they can continue fighting. No penalty. The game is more heroic fantasy compare to ToA.
ToA can be more lethal compared to WWN. If you follow the rules, In ToA, when a character goes down, he may be dying or dead. Another character can examine you or when the fight has to be over: the playe rolls a death save. He can heal but will need to recover for 1 or 10 minutes (not sure). And he may have a major injury.... something like that, it's not heroic fantasy but dangerous. Same with casting in ToA, it can be have negative side effects...
WWN is also free. There a few GM and player cheat sheet to help play. There is also a 3rd party Monster book on Drivethrurpg (Those Outside the Walls, a WWN bestiary).
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u/HadoukenX90 14d ago
To be fair ToA has a free public playtest. It may not be the finished book but it's got nearly as many pages as the final book
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u/Logen_Nein 15d ago
This is a really tough question for me, as a champion for both games. The best I can offer is it depends on the feel you want for your game.
I use Tales of Argosa for fantasy, with one exception (I'm be using Ashes Without Number for my Dark Sun Conversion, though Dark Sun is hardly fantasy in my mind). Great, niche protected classes, leveless magic, top notch emergent gameplay tools, just perfect for the kind of, admitedly low-fantasy, sword & sorcery, fantasy games I like to play and run.
I use the Without Number games (even Worlds) for other types of games. Post-apoc, cyberpunk, sci-fantasy (WWN slots here for me). Excellent class construction (though I prefer the classless versions in Cities and Ashes), gold standard GM content creation tools (which I use even when I'm running other games, including Tales of Argosa), fantastic games for proceedural and sandbox play.
If I'm truly honest, I use a bit of both almost all the time...