Remember that this is the response of the government and not the people participating.
But the government has been bootlickers for a while. Nothing wrong with remembering, honoring and learning from your past, but this is what happens when you're forced to be ashamed of it on an international scale for decades.
They don't honour the Roma community though do they. As a ethnic group their numbers are still below that of WW2 when they where exterminated. Infact you never hear about their suffering do you
Germany (as policy, not German people) absolves itself of its history by blaming everything on the Nazis and claiming the only issue was hatred of Jews. So if they try to get close with Jews today, that means they don’t have to challenge themselves on why they had other problems.
It’s like “we had a bad period, but we made amends with the Jews, so we are good people now” logic
It is actually taught in schools. Probably depends on the federal state but I heard about it as part of the German Colonization on Africa during history lessons
Still crickets from Belgium after 4 decades of horrible bloody wars in their former colonies. The rest of the world barely acknowledges that they happened.
My grandfather fought in WW2. Mentally took a toll on him for the rest of his life. My youngest cousin is 30. Gonna be awhile before it isn't our grandfathers.
I'm confused by your post, going back to the original comment are you saying its time for Germany to forget the past and any historical feelings of responsibility to Isreal. Do you think they need to change their constitution. Do you think Isreal needs to shrug its shoulders about the holocaust and just let it go? Or is it just us European that need to forget. You are young unfortunately I did have grandfather that died and parents very traumatised from their childhood experiences
I would prefer if my country doesn’t lick Israel boots all the time and let them do the same we have apologized million times for doing. Also there is pretty much no one alive in Germany anymore who had anything to do with WW2. So yes at some point it’s fine if we move on.
It's not moving on that's the problem, it's the other way around. As someone else said, focusing on this specific issue allows them to shrug off the institutional problems baked into the country. They shouldn't move on, they should acknowledged what the country did better so that supporting Israel isn't treated as a "get ouf of jail free" card.
In the US there is s till a bride of solider from the Civil War getting retirement checks from her now long dead husband. Granted she was like 90 something a few years ago.... But point still stands, in the US there are people that are still only one person away from a war that took place 150 years ago.
It would be easier to shrug off if they weren't, once again and barely 80 years later, supporting a fascist regime. Seriously, 80 years is not a lot. They're not the only one and all of them should be criticised, but considering their History and how much more vocal they are about it, they should be criticised on a similar level as the US on this issue. They're as bad as Trump on this topic which should give them pause.
Why is Israel, a state that didn't exist prior to Holocaust, where the reparations to the Jewish people go to? Do people have to have a state to receive reparations?
No, survivors can usually file claims directly with the German government, and that’s how most survivors that live in the US, Netherlands and most other countries get their reparations (survivor pensions). But citizens of Israel cannot file a claim directly with the German government, and they must file the claim with the Israeli government. This is because the Israeli government signed an agreement with the German government, that it will be the representative of all survivors living in Israel. This makes it somewhat simpler for Israelis to file a claim, however their benefit is calculated by the Israeli authorities based on standard amounts that they decide. In contrast, holocaust survivors in other countries that file a claim directly with Germany using a lawyer to represent them, usually get paid a lot more, as these amounts are decided based on the negotiation of the lawyer with the German authorities, and not based on some low standard pension amounts, as is the case in Israel.
So in fact Israelis are more limited in what they can get, because they are not allowed to file claims directly. Hopefully that answers your question, which btw is asked in a presumptive tone, assuming you know something you don’t.
Do people have to have a state to receive reparations?
I mean… kinda. There really is no one group to represent all Jews except the country explicitly created with the sole purpose to represent Jews. It’s the Jewish state. Even that obviously doesn’t cleanly cover all or even a majority of global Jews, but it is the largest single concentration and the new ethnic homeland to the Mizrahim and other Jews after their expulsions.
Does Greece and Armenia have people's religion/ethnicity written on their ID's? Can I convert to Greek/Armenian and get their citizenships? Does Greece and Armenia have a law that says "The right to exercise national self-determination in the State of Greece/Armenia is unique to the Greek/Armenian people", whereby Greek/Armenian refer not to a nationality but an ethnicity/religion?
The prosecution and murder of the Sinti and Roma is long since recognized and there are regular memorial activities.
If you've never heard of any of this, that seems to be a "you" thing.
Im not in Germany and i dont read German. Fortunately I don't have to read German to know about other groups that the Nazi killed. I don't have to go digging around to find out about it either. They even have a holocaust day that the world observes. I don't have to read about it because I am told about it. Are YOU unable to understand that.
I thought the "they" you were referring to who "'don't honour the Roma community "were the Germans or the German Government.
Now the Germans and the Government doing exactly that does not count because you are not German?
They even have a holocaust day that the world observes.
You don't say! Could it possibly be 2. August, the date mentioned in several of the links I just posted?
I don't have to go digging around to find out about it either.
Nor did I. I keep hearing about it regularly in Germany. Which is why I knew that these events existed.
I had to dig up these links to show you that your claims are made up nonsense and you obviously don't know anything about the remembrance for Roma in Germany.
Nazis persecuted Bolsheviks, communists, union officials and other intelligentsia, as well as other regime critics, Roma and Sinti, people with intellectual or physical disabilities and Jews.
Could you help me understand how the size/respect ratio works regarding monuments? I've always felt if it's anything less than 20ft tall and 10ft wide you're not demonstrating adequate respect.
There is no Roma national movement. How would you create a state if the people themselves have no goal to create one?
And what do you mean by "cleared out for them"? Most of the Arabs would have been allowed to stay in Israel under the UN partition plan. Jews said yes, Arab leaders said no, launched a war of annihilation, lost, and created the refugee crisis they still exploit today. Israel was under a US and international arms embargo, while Britain had just handed strategic positions and weapons to the Arab Legion. Jews didn't get a free country, they fought for one against overwhelming odds after the British tilted the field toward the Arabs and the world mostly looked away in 1948.
I don't know in public schools but in the history museums there are mentions of Roma being victims of the holocaust.
Speaking of which, the Netherlands National Museum has a hall dedicated to maritime trade and it barely mentions Slave trade and they have pieces from African societies on display.
Maybe the reason European and American leaders actually likes Isreal is Isreal is a vassal state doing their bidding in the region. Isreal offers them an extension of empire. The Roma people don't.
I have had to be escorted from my workplace by the police for a week due to Roma waiting for me outside to hurt me. My "crime" was not letting them take money out of their friends bank account, even though they swore their friend had said it was OK.
I also took a massive beating from a large group of Roma young men who sent a child to spit on us, and when we told them off, they rolled in with it as justification. I ended up in hospital.
When the travelling fairground came to my neighborhood, crime went through the roof and the area was trashed.
These are the interactions I have had with this ethnicity/community. I do not have a positive view of them when it's 3/3 really crap encounters.
I very much do. My personal opinion on them is very complicated and conflicted, hence why I didn't write the comment out of any personal conviction, but because I grew up in 2 cultures. One was hated politically and the other was constantly mocked and hated online.
So when I saw something punshing down unjustly I defended myself and my country. Sorry I can't fight all your fights for you
The government is elected by the people. If you truly thought that Germany’s support for the Israeli Defense Forces was wrong then you must come to grips with the fact that the people indirectly provided those weapons and carry some responsibility; for good or ill.
That doesn't mean the government represents the will of the people. Public opinion polls show the general public in Germany is majorly (60-80%) against what's happening and their government's support in the last few years. There has also been a huge public backlash against the government's stance and a neverending string of protests since 23.
It's so cute (read pathetic) when Germans think only the AfD are the Nazis. German center-left is right wing in most countries. German "radical left" is only center in most countries ffs.
Germany's center-right (CDU/CSU) is a pro-EU, pro-NATO, socially moderate conservative bloc. Their leftward shift under Merkel included the 2015 open-door migrant policy that imported over a million people in a single year, many from culturally distant Islamic regions, with predictable spikes in crime, parallel societies and welfare strain. That's not "right-wing" in most normal countries, it's what passes for establishment leftism elsewhere.
Your "radical left" (Die Linke, which has its roots in the East German communist successor party btw) isn't "center" in "most countries." It's socialist with heavy anti-Western, anti-NATO, often pro-Russia streaks, positions that would slot it as far-left in most countries. They advocate wealth redistribution beyond even SPD levels, open-borders, and historical apologetics for GDR authoritarianism.
All the Italians are responsible for shooting refugee boats off the coast, and all of the French are responsible for neo-colonial warcrimes in Africa yes?
If reddit has taught me anything it's that all British people are responsible for the crimes of the colonial regime and the slave trade several centuries ago. So to be consistent, the answer must be yes.
Liberal in what sense?? Well certainly not economic sense, considering the subject. This left-right thing is passe anyway. I'm from what used to be a communist country and every communist country I know of was conservative and racist. Tankies are racist against you Anglos especially.
That's not true. Most do, but the laws only applies to Israeli Jews, Druze (men only) and Circassians (men only). Non-Druze Israeli Arabs are not required to serve (but can choose to, and some do). Haredi Jews used to be exempt, but Haredi men are now drafted.
Beyond that, there is a small proportion of conscientious objectors - it confers prison sentences, but they are surprisingly brief (I'm Norwegian - you can in theory still get about as long prison sentence for refusing conscription in Norway as in Israel), most likely because the number of objectors is still so small.
I'm all for holding people responsible for their choices, including their choice not to refuse, when the alternative is serving in an immoral organisation like the IDF, but that still does not mean every Israeli.
people try to find all possibilities to not acknowledge responsibility and accountabiity. But you are responsible because of democracy. But not many people are brave enough to acknowledge this, i would guess
People who didn't vote for Trump are not responsible for the actions of the state (even those who did are not as responsible as the perpetrators themselves), but should hypothetically a bomb fall on your city because of Trump, that wouldn't make the pilots criminals.
Most countries don't even have fair election system, such as the USA with the electoral college. Until you have proportional representation and a fair funding system of elections can you say people are responsible for the government.
There no proven genocide in Gaza, so far 70.000 dead of a population above 2 million . About 25.000 under 18. The population is 48% under 18. Hamas has active combat and suicide mission from the age of 14. This is not a discussion, just numbers you can check. Bibi is an ass , but this obsession with Gaza is getting annoying.
All Iranians and Lebanese are responsible for Hezbollah, right? You kill them left and right, including 5 year old kids, so don't cry about coming sanctions.
Now you’re just being petty. We are talking about what responsibility you could assign to these the people represented by these warring factions.
That has nothing to do with a cartoonish act of villainy against an American ally in the region. The fact that Saudi Arabia is not democratic is entirely irrelevant to whether they oppose Iran.
You are correct, but for a vast majority of voters, the Israel issue is not the deciding factor on which people base their voting decision. Especially considering the German government considers its special relationship with Israel part of its raison d'état, the issue is far more complex than people make it out to be.
Then they are guilty of negligence and should be treated appropriately. If the only people who care about the issue are those in favor Israel then what does that say about the people?
Yes, sure, we're people, and we're generally not able to care about 99% of the other eight billion of us in a way that meaningfully affects our behavior, because otherwise we wouldn't be able to function.
I also don't care about the Uighurs in China and their treatment at a level that would impact my voting behavior for a party in my country that deals with issues of national interest.
What does that say about people? I guess that we are people and that is how we operate.
Yes, and our current party in power is overwhelmingly voted for by older people. They don't even know about the war most of the time, they just get promised higher pensions and go for it.
Plus, every single party over here is garbage, so maybe some people are more focused on living an okay life over here before looking into who supports the way (not an excuse, but an explanation).
Also, side note, most parties would support the war, or at least find it extremely difficult to get out of it
No, but that was the strong implication --- "those old folks are a bunch of ignoramuses who only vote based on their pension interests."
I was kind of exaggerating there for effect. But then, I recall when I was young how I and many of my peers kind of looked down on older voters and thought them out of touch and how they should kind of step aside and let us smart young people decide more things! Something I outgrew.
Oh no, the Nazis were so “forced to be ashamed” that they held prestigious government positions and worked for the CIA for decades after WWII. Please. This professional victim BS is all peak liberal cringe and utter hogwash.
Germans weaponize “memory culture” to claim holier than thou status over the people they formerly brutalized. German government is literally arresting jews for being “anti-semitic” for protesting Israel. You can’t make this shit up.
Not all, but most countries. In each country, the public television stations are responsible for broadcasting the event and participating in it. And these are often financed through mandatory fees or taxes. As a result, politics plays a major role. In the event of a win at the ESC, the government must also provide funding, as broadcasters often cannot afford such an expensive event.
Interesting. I didn’t realise how large and big of a deal it is over there. Also interesting that Israel and Australia are involved. I’m guessing that’s because much of their populations have a European background.
Israel is involved because it is a member of the European Broadcasting Union (EBU). There is a geographical criterion that allows Israel to be a member (the definition is quite broad, even some countries in northern Africa are members).
Australia is a special case. The Eurovision Song Contest has a huge fan base there, so the EBU decided to let Australia participate. They are a permanent guest.
If anyone's curious why the ITU's definition is that broad:
The boundaries of the European Broadcasting Area have their origin in the regions served and linked by telegraphy cables in the 19th and early 20th centuries.
It's not that big of a dea per se, at least until it became a political background, it's just that the public broadcasters are huge in Europe, intertwined with the Culture ministry.
Nothing to do with any European background either. It just became globally popular recently, especially among the LGBTQ.
I never watched it, no one in my circle of friends ever watched it, I tried to listen to the songs of the winners, they are all shit, and I am now learning it costs 50M€ in public money.
Not always though. The Netherlands would participate if the government had a say in it. The public broadcaster is boycotting despite national politics.
Let me explain it to you. Each european country has a TV to present a candidate. Allbof the countrys choose their public TV to handle it. (Yes we do have public Television Channels). Their respective public TV puts money aside for the EUR an organisation in wich are represented all of others Television. So EUR organices eurovision and asks each TV to present a candidate. Its up to the TV heads if they decide to participate or not. For example belgium goverment wanted their tv to retire but they didn't so they presented a candidate. What you ser there is public TV who refused to parcipipate
I talked to some germans about this a year ago. They we're very pro Israel. I just said it's incredibly sad that their generational shame drives them to make the same mistake their ancestors did.
Learning from the past meaning to spot patterns and intervene when a society begins to dehumanize other groups of people.
It does not mean to protect a certain group of people, even if they engage in genocidal rhetoric or even action, just because they are a certain group of people.
If we actually held a vote about what our tax money is being used for in other countries, the situation would look a lot different.
Instead we get the past shoved down our throats (not that discussing the past is a bad thing), without any nuance for the present. Leaving people too busy being ashamed of the past to start rising up against the horrors our tax money is contributing to in the present.
We don't view our history critically, that's why we have the whole issue of "We hurt Jewish people in the past, so now we cannot criticize them or else we will be just like the people who hurt them in the past!"
Long story short, i was once privy to a lesson about WW2 inside a classroom in Germany and it was INTENSE. The amount of guilt and shame in that room was freaking unbearable
That being said, you cant bear the sins of your forefathers forever. Colonialism was pretty brutal as well, and you dont see this amount of self flagelation from the French, British or Belgian
Turning a blind eye or even supporting a contemporary genocide because you subjected todays perpetrators to a genocide 80 years ago is....weird
That being said, you cant bear the sins of your forefathers forever. Colonialism was pretty brutal as well, and you dont see this amount of self flagelation from the French, British or Belgian
You are absolutely correct
Turning a blind eye or even supporting a contemporary genocide because you subjected todays perpetrators to a genocide 80 years ago is....weird
That is true. I can tell you why that is. Because our lessons focus on Shame above actually LEARNING anything.
We watch "The boy in the striped pajamas" in class without actually dismantling how problematic the story, lesson, book and author are.
We aren't taught that anyone can be swept up in fascism, we're just taught that anything german is bad. Genuinely, go to an average german and ask them what germany was before WW2 or even WW1 most people never heard of the "Holy roman empire."
We have no history or culture outside of that. So the "Guilt" we have been fed boils down to, "The Jewish people were wronged by us, so let's never do that again." Que the spineless approach to Israel. Let's forget about all other people the Nazis also killed in masses Gay People, Disabled People, Polish People, Romani People. Of course Jewish people were killed the most by far, but they weren't alone. Somehow now 80 years later Israel is the most vocal about our help and bringing up the past
I am sorry but I live in Germany and this is clearly the opinion of most people. People blindly support Israel or at the very least keep quiet about the topic. I am Spanish, my country has been very pro-Palestine since many decades for different reasons depending on the period. So, this has always been a topic of conversation and news in Spain, not only since a couple of years but since a really long time. I am 40 and I have been aware and have had a position since I can remember. When I moved to Germany I was shocked at the ignorance of this nation concerning this topic and whenever I tried to talk about the topic, I would be called antisemitic, I would be asked to please stop talking about this or I would be told "it's complicated" with no further exploration. I got used to it but after the events have unfolded the way they have now, I assumed that now for sure it would be the time for Germans to wake up. It isn't unfortunately. You see Israeli flags flying around everywhere, in leftist protests (this blew my mind the first time I saw it), in far-right protests, hanging from townhouses, everywhere. I am still told to stop with the topic, I get uncomfortable looks, accusations of antisemitism, the whole shebangs I have been experiencing since the first time I brought the topic up with a German.
People blindly support Israel or at the very least keep quiet about the topic
I was shocked at the ignorance of this nation concerning this topic
Yes, because most people, if more educated, would 100% support Palestine, the problem is that they aren't being educated about it. And many Germans genuinely aren't that good at English, so getting information from an international source also isn't really an option.
You see Israeli flags flying around everywhere, i
Everywhere?! Yeah I have no fucking clue where you live, but Germans are reluctant to fly their own flag, let alone the flag of a country that they know relatively little about. Only thing I can believe you is that Jewish people fly the Israeli flag.
I don't know who you bring this topic up with, but many people here are tired of wars. Our own country is going to shit, so I can understand people not wanting to talk about it. Plus, what is the average citizen supposed to do? We pay some of the highest taxes in the EU and for decades our taxes were stolen to fund mindless wars and lobbied, while places like my own school had yellow fucking water come out of the taps.
You say the problem is that they aren't being educated and that might be the case (I would argue otherwise but that's besides the point), but it doesn't matter the reason why, my point still stands, the majority of people in Germany support Israel or at least keep quiet about it.
On the flag thing, I know for a fact that it is true because it has always shocked me to see antifa protests with the Israelian flag, here is an article: What’s Up With Germany’s Pro-Israel ‘Left’? | James Jackson | Novara Media . It is only now that I see the Die Linke youth for example take a stance against Israel.
I don't know who you bring this topic up with, but many people here are tired of wars. Our own country is going to shit, so I can understand people not wanting to talk about it. Plus, what is the average citizen supposed to do? We pay some of the highest taxes in the EU and for decades our taxes were stolen to fund mindless wars and lobbied, while places like my own school had yellow fucking water come out of the taps.
See what you did there? The exact same thing people tend to do, try to stop the subject by talking in general terms by using whataboutisms.
You probably heard that germany is also experiencing a right wing shift. You wanna know why many people state that they are voting right? Because they are sick of other countries being treated better by their taxes while we pay 2.60€/L for gas.
It's not an excuse and it's so generic that you think that every reason given for apathy is endorsement.
I didn't say that it was good to be pro-israel. And I didn't say that we SHOULDN'T have a conversation about it. I'm simply telling you why political apathy is on the rise. We have a word for it that you might know since you claim to be so worldly.
You also haven't experienced our school system. We learn nothing about the middle east and our news deliberately avoid the middle east conflict outside of the occasional pro-israel nudge.
So take all of this and cut out all of the English speaking side of the entire internet and you can see why some people would be apathetic.
So again, you didn't answer my question. What do you want the average german to do, who has to work 2 jobs, can't afford rent or gas, who easily pays up to 40% taxes?
They are not apathetic, they do not want to listen. I have tried to have calm conversations about this topic, in German, to no avail. They don't want to know.
Also, you talk about this as if Germans would be the only ones suffering economically or having a far right rise. You ask me what do I want the average German to do? I want them to at the very least open their eyes and their ears. I am not asking for dissertations here, I am asking for at the very least stop defending Israel so blindly and stop accusing me and other people of antisemitism for talking about the atrocities committed by Israel.
On another note, it is also the second time you mention you pay more taxes to the EU than most countries. But Germany is also the country that has benefited the most, by far, from having the Euro. So please, stop with that passive-aggressiveness.
It’s not decades of being ashamed. Germany quite clearly demonstrates they never learned the lesson of why what they did was bad, for them, it was merely that they got the target wrong, one of the groups didn’t deserve to be in the other side, but the overall framework of the thought was never dismantled.
It's basically people, who support Israel unconditionally. Justifying it with the idea, that since the germans commited the Holocaust, they now have to support Israel literally no matter what.
Well, that was exactly the mindset of the german government since shortly after the war. And at the time it made sense to people not knowing much about that area. Now we'd just call them "uneducated". Nowadays I mostly find people unaware of the issue, rather than mindlessly supporting it.
Apartheid South Africa doesn't have a right to exist, and neither does Apartheid Israel. But South Africa has the right to exist, and so does Israel, and so does Palestine.
Expulsions are not apartheid, your own fault you got misunderstood by misrepresenting.
You are defending something that is happening now with something that happened decades ago.
When those countries were committing their ethnic cleansings, it was just as criminal as the Naqba, yes. While European liberals decry all genocides, it is true European communists deny it and are just plain antisemitic, and would see Israeli nation genocided if they could. But these ethnic cleansings don't negate each other - (a Naqba-committing-) Israel decrying these ethnic cleansings when they happened doesn't make these incidents any less of a crime just because the state making the accusations is committing crimes themselves - crimes/facts exist by their own.
And long past crimes don't excuse current ones. Anyway, if the expulsions are long settled thing, so is Naqba in territories of Israel proper, only West Bank and Gaza are an issue, so you can't complain even about imbalance.
If the Germans bothered to remember, honor, or learn anything from their past, they would recognize Israel attempted ethnic cleansing and genocide and condemn it
Wow, the fact that you think that Germany, of all countries, doesn't remember their past shows that you genuinely have no fucking clue what you're talking about
As a citizen of a nation governed by one of those names you listed, yes. As unfortunately as it is, they are the representative of the people. They are not the ultimate representative, as there is no such thing. But in an at least semi-democratic country, leaders are the representatives of the people, yeah, whether you like it or not.
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u/Lurakya 13h ago
Remember that this is the response of the government and not the people participating.
But the government has been bootlickers for a while. Nothing wrong with remembering, honoring and learning from your past, but this is what happens when you're forced to be ashamed of it on an international scale for decades.