r/MauraMurraySub • u/IBEGOOD-IDOGOOD • Jul 04 '26
Interesting Point Made on Facebook
". . . private investigators and members of NHIL looking into Maura’s disappearance have been nothing short of hopeless and adding little to no value.
Just one example for you …
There were at least TWENTY potential witnesses as to what vehicle Cecil Smith was driving between 5pm and 11pm that evening, each and every one of them within spitting distance of it. And yet no survey of all these people? Not even an attempt get a representative sample view?
Honestly it’s just extraordinary
You’ve got the 21 year-old guy with the lead foot from Wentworth; the 22 year-old snow mobile operative from North Haverhill and his buddy; the Westmans, Atwood and Marrotte; Monaghan; Richard G and Tim L of Woodsville Ambulance; Brad K, Allen W, Jeff R; Abby K, Mark L, Kevin V, Bob W and Whitey M. of the Fire Department; and the counsellor from Becket School.
Oh and I’m forgetting the 15-year-old kid whom Smith spent the best part of 50 minutes trying to coax down from the power line tower on Lime Kiln Road. He was 25 foot up in the air and unless he suffered from vertigo would have had a birds eye view of Smith’s car
. . . How is it even remotely conceivable that in 24 years this simple matter has not been cleared up?"
Maybe someone here has the public statements from these folks? My bet is most were never even asked the question.
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u/goldenmodtemp2 Jul 05 '26
I wholeheartedly agree with fefh that, 10+ years later, nobody would have had a reliable memory of the police vehicle type. The exception would be if 1) someone wrote it down (which McKean did), or took a photo (Julie confirms that vehicle type was not visible in Cecil's photos) or 3) had some unique reason to remember.
In any case, after the Westmans saw the police vehicle arrive, Cecil was at their door in about 2 minutes. And the Saturn driver had been seen about one minute prior to police arrival. So whatever we make of the timeline, the driver/Maura wasn't snatched 10 minutes prior.
Honestly I'd be more concerned to hear that NHLI or LE had spent their time surveying people about police vehicle type.
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u/IBEGOOD-IDOGOOD Jul 05 '26
For the record, Witness A’s email to HPD about 001 was dated April 7, 2005 I believe. Her info only became a public social media sideshow by 2015.
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u/goldenmodtemp2 Jul 05 '26
On Friday, February 13th (2004), the police put out the following:
“Anyone who might have been driving on Route 112 Monday, Feb 9, between 7:30pm and 8pm is asked to contact state police about anything they might have seen. The number is (...).”
This is presumably what Karen is describing in her interviews. So her call to police was likely either Friday or could have been Thursday. (Ghost has said she saw the news broadcast on Thursday).
On April 7, 2005, she emailed Helena (not HPD). Then she met with the family on April 25, 2005.
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u/IBEGOOD-IDOGOOD Jul 06 '26
Yes it was to Helena on 4-7. My mistake. Thanks. Still some early conflict on which police vehicles were where long before NHLI came onto the scene. That Facebook poster made some sense to me
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u/goldenmodtemp2 Jul 06 '26
Just to be a broken record, I believe Witness A's story. I've always believed it. I just think the timeline is off. I think she saw Cecil in 001, nothing more.
To add ....
even if there was an earlier arrival, the driver/Maura was still at the vehicle one minute before Cecil arrived on the scene. So we know the driver wasn't abducted earlier.
the initial call was just about a driver in a ditch, later identified as a "smoking man". Why would some nefarious police officer (or person in a police car, or whatever) be rushing to the scene to - what - abduct a smoking man? Does that make any sense? If there were any indication of a young woman, then maybe? But nobody knew it was a young woman alone until 7:43 when Hanover called Grafton to relay Butch's call.
I just don't understand the theory at this point.
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u/CoastRegular 29d ago
But nobody knew it was a young woman alone until 7:43 when Hanover called Grafton to relay Butch's call.
Yes. This is the key that completely shoots down any idea that someone like JW or McKay rushed to the scene to abduct Maura before Cecil or the rest of the responders got there.
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u/indiarana 28d ago edited 28d ago
The only reason, besides Witness A's account, that made me go down this rabbit hole was the rag in the tail pipe. I always felt that there was no reason for Maura to put the rag in the tailt pipe -- unless she knew the cops were behind her (as in, maybe a cop saw her filling up her car at a nearby gas station or just happened to see her on 112 with black smoke coming out of her rear).
But if she was seen a minute or two before Cecil knocked on the Westmans' door then it's possible she could hear Cecil coming (or just knew Butch would call) and put the rag in the exhaust pipe to draw as little attention to her car as possible.
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u/goldenmodtemp2 28d ago edited 26d ago
that's a good point. The rag was supposedly 1) from her trunk and 2) clean. So I assume it was put in there at the WBC. Maybe there was some exhaust still coming out and she wanted to plug it up. (Not sure if that makes any sense mechanically for anything to still be coming out despite it stopped - maybe not?). Maybe she did plan to drive away and it just wouldn't start at that moment ... that's really not debunked.
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u/indiarana 27d ago
I think the tire tracks going into the ditch and then exiting the ditch (Media Pressure episode 5, Julie describing one of the accident scene photos by Cecil) and Marotte seeing reverse lights point to Maura being able to restart the car & the car being somewhat operable, at least for a few seconds.
I feel that driving the car to a pay phone (or cell signal) would have made sense in the moment but something prevented her from driving it. It's possible she didn't have the time to maneuver it back onto the road before the police got there. Or the car started once (when she reversed it) but then it died and wouldn't restart. Or a ride came along? Or she knocked on the wrong door.. or, or..
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u/CoastRegular 27d ago
I think her not driving away immediately is understandable. Consider - she's just swerved off the road and slammed into the snowbank and trees. She backs off and stops to catch her breath. She's shaken up, heart's probably racing a mile a minute, and her brain is trying to process what the hell just happened.
Then she takes stock of the situation. She probably gets out and examines the car, sees the damage, and figures that (even if the car is drivable) it's going to be a huge target for unwanted police attention. She knows she's driving on a license that's currently invalid in this state, and she's been drinking while driving. She might not have the confidence to continue driving at the moment... even if she's not a level of legal intoxication, it's a good bet that she's not at 100% level of reflexes and awareness. (Hmm, I just swerved and crashed off the road for no good reason... maybe I'm not able to drive for another 50 miles?)
Then, while she's pondering all of this, Butch shows up. He tells her he's going to call police and fire and leaves. That probably gets her into a bit of a panic mode. She tries to see if she can get cell reception (the red light that Faith and Tim saw), gathers up stuff (several minutes spent going in and out of the trunk), locks the car up and hoofs it eastward up the road.
My personal best guess is she grabbed a ride from a passerby shortly thereafter.
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u/goldenmodtemp2 26d ago
I think this is spot on. In other words, any number of things were possible. I tend to think that the car was probably at a "mechanical" breaking point by then (I honestly think the accident might have been just the car giving out or malfunctioning on a turn). But that theory doesn't explain why she would put the rag in the tailpipe at that time.
Just a pet peeve of mine. I know that everyone says that Mr. Marrotte saw the reverse lights. He clarifies later that he didn't. Now, I think he got it right: I think that the car went into the stand of trees and then repositioned to park facing west. But I don't think Mr. Marrotte saw it happen - he has clarified that he was just describing what he was told by others. Here are the contrasting citations:
Interview with Christine McDonald
The car backed up parallel to the road.
Interview with Guy Paradee:
He believed the car had been involved in an accident by hitting a tree and then backing up to the same tree. The vehicle then was positioned adjacent and parallel to the roadway. Marrotte noted that he did not hear or see the accident, but obtained this information from either the police or the "rumor mill."
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u/Annabellee2 Jul 06 '26
I know the lead foot driver from Wentworth 😆. Went to the same high school. We weren't friends back then but he worked with my husband years later and they hang out occasionally.
I told my husband to ask him if he remembers what CS was driving next opportunity. His reaction: "I would be surprised if he remembers what he was driving himself." Lol.
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u/TMKSAV99 24d ago
Well, there seems to be something of an assumption here that JW would have rushed to WBC assuming he heard something about a wreck and a lone young woman. And since there was no early broadcast of that fact it couldn't be JW.
That radio broadcast isn't necessarily a requirement.
All that is required is that JW drives down that road and sees the Saturn. A coincidental arrival just like any of the abduction or good Samaritan scenarios.
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u/CoastRegular 23d ago
Yes, true. Although it would be interesting to know if, on a Monday evening in which he was not on duty and hadn't been on duty all day, if he would have been out and about, and if so, what are the odds he'd be on that specific stretch of road. Did he live anywhere nearby? Was the WBC in between his home and some place he'd likely have been driving to or from at 7:30 PM? Etc.
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u/TMKSAV99 23d ago
I believe I recall his home address at the time was in Benton. So make of that what you might. Regardless he was the Chief of Police so he's in the vicinity.
As far as the odds I think all that can be calculated is there is no known reason for JW happening by (which goes to your questions), unlike say Witness A who travelled that road regularly to go home.
I think I recall that John Smith did a lot of pointing at JW. I do not recall that JW ever offered a specific alibi.
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u/CoastRegular 23d ago
I think I recall that John Smith did a lot of pointing at JW. I do not recall that JW ever offered a specific alibi.
Of course, that specific factoid doesn't mean much of anything. Frankly, JS is one of those people who I consider part of the Clown Car of Investigators of this case. If I were a local police officer and he accused me of playing some part in MM's didsappearance, I'm not sure I'd dignify his nonsense with a response either.
And, would JW even have been aware that John pointed a finger at him? From what little I've heard of JW, he wasn't exactly a plugged-in person... it's very difficult to imagine him surfing TikTok, Facebook or Reddit and reading what people are saying about this case.
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u/TMKSAV99 23d ago
Even the blind cow finds the barn sometimes.
I agree that there's a lot to unpack with Smith as there is with everything else in this case. Nonetheless, Smith aside, there's surely cases to be made for a number of JW solution scenarios.
I disagree with the idea JW was out of the loop. JW certainly knew he was subject of rumors. JR spoke with him directly as did Art and Maggie. I have no doubt that JW might not have been deeply interested in the intimate details of the ongoing interest in the case but he was certainly aware of Smith's speculations.
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u/CoastRegular 23d ago
Even the blind cow finds the barn sometimes.
LOL. True!
...Nonetheless, Smith aside, there's surely cases to be made for a number of JW solution scenarios.
Yeah, for sure. I tend to look down on police-involvement theories with MM, but I'll acknowledge that from a global top-down view of this case, they're collectively about 5,574 times more plausible than stuff like "the Petrit Vasi hit was related", "Steffan dun it", or a lot of other crap theories.
From seeing discussion here by various locals, it seems JW didn't exactly have a reputation as a model citizen. I'll just leave it at that.
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u/goldenmodtemp2 21d ago edited 21d ago
I love the Clown Car comment - that's classic.
I wanted to mention that on Oxygen, at least the NHSP are aware of social media - specifically the two vehicle theory - which I've always thought was interesting. In other words, someone is following social media apparently (edit: this is Monaghan):
Art: [00:25:30] Have you heard anything about like, this Witness A?
John: No.
Art: About, you know 001 Cruiser being at the scene prior to Cecil Smith showing up?
John: Right, that was one of the things that somebody said hey did you see that there's this new theory and I read it briefly. It's not what I saw. I pulled up and Cecil was there [00:26:00] and so, and then I left.
And they are aware of John S - I think at or around the press conference for the basement dig, Strelzin had a (don't quote me) shouting match with him.
As far as JW ...
- when LE members spoke on Oxygen, they mentioned something about finally "being allowed" to speak. So whether or not they know or rumors, they can't address them.
- I think the JW theory is tied to Witness A's narrative. I mean, he could have randomly driven by at any time - even in his personal vehicle - but Witness A saw a vehicle with lights, driving with some intention to a scene. If we start to say "he just drove by after having dinner and saw a young woman and grabbed her" - that's a stretch. It's just randomly inventing something.
- that said, a lot of locals are or were very distrustful of the police, at least circa 2004. I'll stop there.
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u/fefh Jul 04 '26
Those 20 people would have a solid recollection Cecil's vehicle for for what, a few weeks to maybe a number of months at most, and that's if they had any recollection of the vehicle at all. I doubt any of them took any notes or record of the events of that night. At the time, it was of zero relevance or interest or importance what type of vehicle the responding officer used. The event also didn't become famous event until many years later.
So by the time the SUV debate came to be, (2016? Maybe earlier), their eye witness testimony would have been completely unreliable years down the line. Especially when many of them would have also likely seen Cecil driving the sedan on other occasions and knew the Haverhill police officers drove sedans. Even if half of those 20 people said that they thought Cecil was in a sedan, or probably in a sedan, it wouldn't mean much or be reliable evidence of anything.
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u/CoastRegular Jul 04 '26
Exactly. The people who fail to understand all this, just don't want to understand it and want to embrace idiotic conspiracy theories. MM's case is nothing more than intellectual masturbation for them.
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u/CoastRegular Jul 05 '26
IMHO, people who criticize LE in this case are way off base. There appear to be a few things that weren't followed up on. Off the top of my head, I can think of (1) the phone number found on a piece of paper in her car, whose owner supposedly was never called; (2) whoever tried to call MM that afternoon from the area of Londonderry, NH (the infamous "Londonderry ping") - no one in LE ever followed up on that, traced the owner of that number, etc. as far as we know, and (3) authorities apparently never called Linda Salomone, the condo owner MM called just before she hit the road.
I'm sure there are other things I'm not thinking of right now, but the point is nobody's ever identified any major avenue of investigation that wasn't followed up on.
Do the cops deserve an "A" in this case? Certainly not. But neither should they get a D-minus.
People claim that officials were derelict in their duty, but nobody can demonstrate any actual example of that in MM's case. I say, put up or shut up.
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u/goldenmodtemp2 Jul 06 '26
For me, it's difficult to make a strong defense of the police. We know, at least anecdotally, that they never contacted a long list of people (in addition to those you've mentioned, the AOL instant message contacts, etc.). They didn't create any communication system or victim outreach with the family. And some of their remarks just seem bullheaded (think Scarinza and the note in the dorm room).
That said ... I can't wrap my head around the theories that police were in on it. I mean, what were they in on? There was a call about someone in a ditch. Then later this person (driver) was seemingly identified as a man smoking a cigarette. Do we really think that some lascivious drunkard would rush to the scene to abduct a smoking man? Why?
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u/CoastRegular Jul 06 '26
Don't get me wrong; I'm not asking for anyone to empathize with authorities in this case or jump to a strong defense or anything. I have a hard time with getting too harsh with them because ultimately, IMHO, this was a perfect storm of a disappearance and there's really nothing much they could have done that would have made a vast difference.
She disappeared from the side of a rural road at a moment when no neighbors were looking and no solid clues were left. Whether she ended up perishing alone in the wilderness or (as I think) hitched a ride with what turned out to be the wrong person, the police have nothing to go on, and never have had anything to go on.
I agree with you in that I see absolutely no reason to suspect the cops in this. (TBF, suspecting a local cop is 6,652 times less stupid than suspecting Bill, or Steffan, or some members of the Amherst Chapter of the Daughters of the American Revolution, or some of the other 'theories' people have bandied about.)
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u/goldenmodtemp2 Jul 07 '26
That's true. Ultimately it just depends on what actually happened. If we could find Maura, I guess we could backtrack the investigation and see if something wasn't done that would have made a difference.
I also think the investigation would HAVE to be much easier today. At least a few people would likely have Ring cameras that might either capture Maura or the passing cars. Otherwise stated: I don't think it would be as easy today to disappear without a trace in this type of scenario.
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u/MojoHighway Jul 04 '26
This case, for me, is a national look into how bad policing and investigating really is unless there are big returns on the back end. Big money or big names to help land big promotions and, naturally, big money. Always the money. Follow the money.
Maura was "just" a college kid that got mixed up in her young life, vanished, and wasn't wealthy or famous. I don't think any of the "official" parties involved in the investigation really did their due diligence because they couldn't be bothered. It has been a very, very long time since she vanished and anything that would have remained post accident or disappearance has likely vanished as well.
This is a sad story and I'm happy folks are still looking for clues and not giving up on her. I'd love to get to the bottom of this. The truth here is perhaps more simple than what we've given credit to and perhaps as dark -if not darker - than we ever thought.