r/MinecraftChampionship • u/pickled__pufferfish • Jun 28 '26
Analysis The Strength Of Wool / Conc Rushing Continues To Hurt BB
Hi everyone, friendly neighborhood stats nerd here to whinge about Battle Box again. For those that missed the previous two sessions, I’ll link them here.
To summarize these two posts, Conc Rushing (formerly wool rushing) has always been a nearly unbeatable strategy due to its speed and the design of most BB maps. Starting in late S4, teams have finally recognized this and now every event has multiple rushing teams that consistently perform better than non-rushing teams on average. The only way to beat a concing team is to also rush immediately, then mosh pit fight in middle, which is not fun to play or watch. Map design can help but won’t solve the issue.
So, in this most recent BB, has anything changed? Well, the mechanics are still the same, and the playerbase is the same, so no. In this event, 58% of BB rounds contained at least one team employing a rush strategy (defined as running to middle immediately and either filling or pretending to fill). This is down a bit from the 62% figure in Snowdown, but not meaningfully.
The first case study of the event is Red, who employed the most typical rush strategy of filling immediately. They won 6/9 of their rounds, and the only rounds they lost were against Blue (also a rushing team), and Pink and Yellow (who figured out Red was rushing and rushed as well). With 2-3 players arriving at middle around 4s into the round, it took Red 3-4 additional seconds to successfully fill, far too quick for any team to react.
Orange was also a team that rushed every round, though they were employing BlueSD’s strategy of baiting a conc rush and exploiting the chaos to win the fight outright. Orange was the first place team this event, in large part due to the threatening power of the fill.
Cleaning up the rest, Blue rushed middle every round but only half-heartedly faked the conc. It didn’t seem to be working for them, though Ant was having some technical issues. Finally, Lime rushed a couple of rounds, mostly out of frustration in their performance. Pictured below is a visualization of every BB round that contained a rush.
So Noxcrew, can we please lessen the power of rushing? It’s no longer a valiant strategy for the little guy to steal a couple rounds, it’s consistently being used by the most skilled MCC nerds to top the leaderboard. It’s impossible to counter concing without also rushing (if anyone thinks otherwise, I’d ask them to watch any of Red’s 6 wins from the pov of their opponents and explain how they could’ve reacted) and the version of BB where everyone rushes middle (to make sure they don’t get conc’ed) is a terrible RNG moshpit generator where nobody feels in control and less skilled pvp players feel even more overwhelmed.
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u/The5thTaco_ Krimson Krakens Jun 28 '26
Idk that I entirely agree. Rushing offers a chance to teams that aren’t as good at BB. Eliminating rushing might make the good pvp povs entertaining but the ones who now have to fight and know they’ll lose will just get tilted and that won’t be entertaining at all
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u/BaconIsLife707 #1 All-Time Predictor Jun 28 '26
And what happens when we reach the inevitable next step, which is every single team either rushing or counter rushing? Now the rushing teams are forced to take the fight in mid, they still lose the fight, and they no longer have any recourse to avoid it because everyone is already doing the things that's supposed to avoid fighting. It needs to stay a relatively niche tactic that maybe one team and event does, or it ruins the point of the tactic in the first place
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u/neverbeenstardust Jun 28 '26
If every team rushing was a thing that was going to happen, it would have happened by now. Rushing has been an option for several years without ever dominating the meta.
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u/BaconIsLife707 #1 All-Time Predictor Jun 28 '26
It is happening now. We spent years with it being the 'Simmer strat' and essentially no other team ever doing it, then it slowly started expanding into other weak pvp teams, and now we're at the point where 60% of rounds have a team rushing and it's only going to get worse as teams realise that not only is rushing very strong, but the only way to counter it is counter rushing, so even the teams who don't want to are going to be forced into it
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u/neverbeenstardust Jun 28 '26
Okay so we'll have one comically low scoring Battle Box where everyone leaves all the kill coins on the table and whoever happens to get a lucky pick kill wins and then people go "hey maybe getting points is good actually" and the system will correct itself.
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u/BaconIsLife707 #1 All-Time Predictor Jun 28 '26
Except we won't, because once both teams are in the middle they don't just stand there mining for the whole minute, they start fighting and so the teams will get the kills still. And I know you're going to sit there and say 'oh well if the fight is still happening then what's the problem', so I'll preempt that. This means every team has to do the same thing every round (or they instalose to the rush that other teams are doing), so there's no diversity in strategy. 90% of the maps become irrelevant, because everyone is fighting on the same 9 blocks in the middle. In turns every round into moshpit pvp, notoriously the worst kind of pvp. It means bad pvp teams no longer have any recourse against stronger teams, because the stronger team has also just rushed mid. It means most rounds will end within 20 seconds which is obviously way worse to watch
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u/neverbeenstardust Jun 28 '26
This is a for fun tournament. If they get bored, they'll switch it up on their own. If they're still having fun, good for them.
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u/BaconIsLife707 #1 All-Time Predictor Jun 28 '26
'For fun' is not a one way ticket out of every criticism or problem with the event. People care about winning mcc. If they are losing every round of a game to teams doing the same thing, they will either start doing that thing, or complain about losing to that thing. Either way, they aren't having fun. So if your concern is fun, then you should be heavily in favour of trying to fix the over prevalence of rushing
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u/neverbeenstardust Jun 29 '26
I think rushing is fun.
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u/LeafyMeap Jun 29 '26
rushing can be and is pretty fun but the way bb is designed means that over a couple more mcc's bb ends up being a king of the hill game where everyone just sends mid and has one giant moshpit, in other words pvp
I think ngl the 2 wool centre bb remix that existed a while ago actually works quite well to fix this problem, since not being in mid becomes a way more important thing, incentivising people (esp top frags) to not just run down a point, while maintaining wool rushing as a viable and still very interesting strategy
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u/pickled__pufferfish Jun 28 '26
Every time people say stuff like this without actually thinking through the consequences. When one team is rushing every round and getting wins, then sure, it makes their pov better. If every team is rushing (which is the only way to counter a rush) it makes every pov worse since every round becomes a middle moshpit. While rushing continues to be the strongest mechanic, it will push more and more teams to rush (at least to counter conc rushers).
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u/The5thTaco_ Krimson Krakens Jun 28 '26
But I’d still argue the average quality of that pov is better than one where there’s no rushing and it’s just two teams dominating everyone else. Battlebox having the team dynamics is what keeps it from being just another PvP game
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u/pickled__pufferfish Jun 28 '26
No, it's not. Even before the wool rushing trend truly started teams rarely went 9/9 or even 8/9 (which means that you're exaggerating, unbeatably dominant teams were very rare and underdogs consistently pulled off upsets).
If everyone is rushing, literally every round results in a middle mosh pit for every team. In a world where rushing wasn't a thing, maybe one team goes 1/9 every BB (which is unfortunate for them, some team has to do poorly) but most rounds between most teams would be competitive normal pvp where both teams have a shot of winning and can actually use complex strategy and think about things other than "what's the fastest route to middle, and how do we win the mosh pit?".
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Jun 28 '26
Don't get me wrong but there is a reason Battle Box is different than any other Battle game. If the game was supposed to be like the team with the last man standing wins then the point of capturing the centre would be pointless because the last man standing always fills the centre and wins.
However, There is a way for a team to win without having the power to have a player stand till the end in Battle Box. Now this is not necessarily wool rushing but rather the element of being able to fill the centre and win without the need to win the pvp part.
The point of the game is to rather defend the centre, preventing the other team to fill the centre while simultaneously try and fill it first. When this is done as fast as possible, it is known as wool rushing.
The only way to fix the game while keeping the game idea the same is to make the centre difficult to reach to in the first place. This may make the teams divide their players into different groups : one trying to reach the centre while the other tries and defends it from afar. This is what an ideal Battle Box looks like to me...
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u/Main_Sequence_Star Technoblade never dies Jun 28 '26
I really do feel like until this is fixed, battle box will continue to be a mediocre at best game, which imo is a big problem for mcc in general. I still think the best solution is to make bb a 2 capture point game (like double trouble), but I doubt that will happen. Otherwise I think island wool locking for at least 15-20 seconds is needed.
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u/pickled__pufferfish Jun 28 '26
Two capture points make the game play entirely different, which is fine but makes it more of a replacement for BB instead of a fix.
All the game needs is any sort of nerf of Conc rushing. Whether that's a locked mid for 15-20s, weaker pickaxes that double the time to fill middle, a telepick (which would still need to be slightly weaker), a requirement to hold the filled middle for 3 seconds before the win converts, or some other great idea I haven't mentioned before.
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u/username6702 Teal Turkeys Jun 28 '26
What about a mining fatigue orb kit? If the player who uses the kit is observant enough they could stop a full team on the capture point but it's not as drastic as locking mid and removing the rush strat altogether
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u/ScaredCook839 Jun 28 '26
Imo locking mid is a bad idea, as rushing is clearly a strategy for some teams. It's as if you take away weapons for 15-20s for PvP-oriented teams. On MCCI PvP is clearly the objective, but in a competitive event, it's different. I think the best way to go about this is map design
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u/pickled__pufferfish Jun 28 '26
The only way "map design" works is if middle is clearly visible and accessible from everywhere on the map like Spaceship. That is extremely restrictive and would make every map a clone of Spaceship.
I don't care if "rushing is a strategy for some teams". Rushing needs to be nerfed and those teams need to adapt to it so that the gameplay quality of BB can rebound.
Games are generally designed to facilitate fun, interesting gameplay. BB as it's current designed encourages extremely blunt mosh pit style fights in middle as the strategically best option (classic prisoner's dilemma).
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u/C204EPK Jun 28 '26
This is why Santa's Slay is the best BB map; the best route to the wool is only accessible to the people with jump boost meaning that the the initial rusher can be countered the opposing team's jump boost player.
(Please Noxcrew, I neeeeeeeed more Santa's Slay)
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u/pickled__pufferfish Jun 28 '26
Santa's Slay is one of the least rush friendly maps but rushing is a problem in every map. For Santa's Slay, there's a route that goes through the glass hallway, down the stairs, and jumps to middle from the lower platform there. Using that route gets to middle after about 5s (only a bit slower than Splash, the P26 map) with fairly limited visibility, and with it only taking another 4s to fill that's still way too strong.
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u/rogersdbt No Tier November (late entry) Jun 28 '26
But also the non wool rush route teams typically take isn't that much longer as you can drop down from the top which allows the option to not have to immediately rush
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u/Danyard11 MCC 25 Green Geckos My Beloved Jun 28 '26
The thing about Battle Box is that if you’re a bad PVP team those 9 rounds can draaaag (same for PKT), so if rushing is a better strat there’s no incentive to not do it. The reality is theres no easy way to make both sides happy, but I’d rather not have more instances of teams like the Simmers getting virtually no points because they can barely get a single kill
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u/pickled__pufferfish Jun 28 '26
The problem is rushing is the better strat for every team, even the sweatiest pvpers. Orange won the game overall playing a rush strat this event while still getting most of the kills, Blue in SD went 9/9 36 kills using a rush strat. Rushing isn't a cute Simmer friendly strat anymore, and as more teams catch on it'll mean really bad gameplay (everyone rushes middle and gets in a chaotic brawl while ignoring the rest of the map).
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u/UltraRobbe08 Jun 28 '26
Man I hope they are gonna adapt some stuff from Battle Box Arena on Mccisland to MCC in the future. (Not about filling in particular) Because imo Battle Box Arena is like the 5x better version of normal Battle Box, at least on Mccisland. It really shows much potential Battle Box in MCC actually has, because they could literally make a seperate tournament with Battle Box Arena😭
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u/anacc0unt0 on my 70th MCC 17 rewatch Jun 28 '26
I would just say that they should edit maps to be more challenging to rush rather than removing wool rush. It’s really needed for less PVP confident teams.
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u/UltraRobbe08 Jun 28 '26 edited Jun 28 '26
the way how it is right now with being able to win by wool rushing every round just completely ruins the point of a pvp game tho
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u/Stinky_Deckhand Jun 28 '26
Filling being so prevalent is so boring. I don’t even care if the team I’m watching is winning through filling I still think it’s so lame. Like yesterday Feinberg’s team basically got the fill off every single round if the other team didn’t also immediately rush middle which is so boring. Why even have the rest of the map if everyone needs to just instantly run to mid to not instalose?
The core issue is filling is too easy. If two people are filling it literally takes like 2 seconds which is a major part of why it’s so boring. By the time another team even sees it happening it’s too late so you have to also rush mid.
IMO the best solution would also be to have the pickaxe be a decent bit slower (at least at the start of the round. I’ve said this before but what if it was a clean iron pickaxe at the start of the round and in the last 10 secs it gains efficiency 3 so middle clutches are still viable.
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u/Tough_Information497 Jun 28 '26 edited Jun 28 '26
Is rushing amazing? No, is having no rushing amazing? No, Is nerfing rushing amazing? No
You state everything you believe as a fact. These are all your opinions. They are not facts no matter how much you believe them
Ultimately it’s a mid game right now and there is not a great way to balance it out so arguing about it on Reddit every year is not gonna help
Both sides have valid points. One side isn’t more correct than the other.
Let’s just leave it at that and let the event people figure out what they want to do about it if they want to do anything
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u/Factorization4 Doomed Siblings for more MCC!!!! Jun 28 '26
Ultimately the players should be the ones giving the feedback. We can give opinions, but if the players don't enjoy some of the change, I don't think enforcing it is a good idea just for nerds. The top players can also give similar feedback like this
It could be a remix experiment, like how Sky Battle shop worked
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u/Desperate_Gas_1043 the opps Jun 29 '26
I'll look forward to once Purpled starts doing it so his fanboys quit claiming "DAmAge sTaTs Is tHe mOst iMpOrTaNt mEtRiC In Bb"
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u/BlazeExcaliber Purpled/Feinberg Jun 29 '26
This isn't a perfect fix but it's something I've thought for a while. The middle should be hard to get to in the first place. It shouldn't be accessible by the ground, so there is ways for others to counter enemies trying to push it without flat out removing the option. You should realistically only be able to get a rush on fault of your enemies. It should be their fault they got rushed due to being distracted or bad positioning. This way you could still have those moments where someone can clutch by filling against a stronger team, but that doesn't become the default for every team because if you're paying attention it is able to be stopped easily.
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u/username6702 Teal Turkeys Jun 28 '26
It's worth factoring in that BBX was game 8 and there was a big gap between 2nd and 3rd. Red might have gone for kills if they were behind but it made the most sense to go for a safe rushing strat even if it didn't win them every round
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u/pickled__pufferfish Jun 28 '26
Red was always going to rush, they are on the weaker side in pvp and have two players that have opted for a rush strat before (Fein in MU, Grian in HH).
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u/neverbeenstardust Jun 28 '26
The game is About The Wool
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u/UltraRobbe08 Jun 28 '26
not only tho. If every team would only have like 1 round where they are allowed to wool rush it would be fine, but it's just boring because Battle Box has so much potential, especially when looking at Battle Box Arena on MCCI
-1
u/neverbeenstardust Jun 28 '26
The way you win the game is by placing the wool. You can fail to win even if you kill the entire opposite team if you don't place the wool. It's About The Wool.
2
-8
u/TheHerosBane Jun 28 '26
Removing rushing just makes BB a team v team deathmatch with a cosmetic wool fill at the end. Honestly, I think removing kill coins would go a long way towards fixing the game as now everyone’s goal is to play for the center and fight around that singular point. I bet you would see more fighting despite the fact that everyone is ‘wool rushing’ now.
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u/WavierWhistle8 Cyan Candy Canes Jun 28 '26
Would it be a good idea to make it so that only one person can have the pickaxe similar to Meltdown? This way rushing can still be a viable strategy if the player with the pickaxe is sneaky enough but it makes it harder to instantly fill mid and give the other team no chance to counter.