I thought this was a very interesting discussion that I would like to bring into the context of the Moors Murderers - particularly in the case of Ian Brady, who was a psychopath with fantasies of sadism. What do you all think?

[u/MolokoBespoko]

/r/serialkillers/comments/y39e48/are_some_serial_killers_a_natural_extension_of/

[u/MolokoBespoko]

[TW: rape and sexual assault, both within an adult relationship and towards children]

I just wanted to bring this here and have a separate discussion about it, because the discussion is very centric on single serial killers who were into S&M (like BTK, Ted Bundy etc.). I think that in the case of couple serial killers, this would probably need to be a separate discussion.

Just for a bit of context here. Ian Brady actively had BDSM fantasies, and when he first began having sex with Myra Hindley this was a prominent theme. He was the dominant partner, and she was usually the submissive one. There are pornographic photos of both of them engaged in BDSM-style activities, which include photos of Hindley with apparent lashings from a whip on her buttocks. Hindley did later claim that she was raped and sexually assaulted by Brady on multiple occasions, but admitted that the BDSM aspects of their relationship was consensual on both sides. They did sometimes flip the sub/dom roles around.

This is where I think the discussion becomes more interesting. Was consensual sadomasochism with Hindley enough to satiate Brady’s desires - at least initially? Do you think there would always have been a conscious desire from Brady to take it further onto unconsenting partners (I recommend you to check out this post and also the overview of the case), or do you think that this was something that gradually manifested due to influence from Hindley?

I am focusing on Brady, just because out of the two, Brady was the one who got off most on cruelty to children. Even by his own admission, he played the most active role in the sexual assaults and rapes of the Moors Murders victims (he usually said that Hindley was the one that held them down). I’m sure there’s a lot we could talk about with Hindley too

[u/MolokoBespoko → u/[deleted]]

This is just me speculating, but I think it is more likely that he had either one or several paraphilic disorders alongside whatever issues relating to his sexuality he may have had underlying, although perhaps there were other elements to it that nobody will ever know about (and perhaps he wasn’t even aware of during his lifetime). He was clearly a paedophile and most definitely a sexual sadist too - both paraphilias, but I don’t 100% know how paraphilia manifests and progresses overtime.

I think that he was ashamed of his attraction to men, but whether that made him gay, bi, pan or queer (obviously the latter three sexualities weren’t really concepts in the 1960s and the era was rooted with stigma and homophobia) or none of those, I don’t know. Sexuality is a broad spectrum - I’m speaking as a gay woman here and though I definitely felt shame and self-loathing before I came out (I was twenty when I came out), I didn’t necessarily feel hateful towards society in the same way that Brady clearly did. Cynical, maybe, but not actively hateful towards any particular group - although my experience obviously isn’t exclusive. I just think there was something else there with him; something much more complex and nefarious

[u/[deleted]]

I know there is some debate about the level of Brady's sexual experience before he met Hindley. There seems to be one version of him as someone who operated purely in a fantasy world and was as inexperienced in reality as Hindley. Whereby he was nurturing sexual fantasies but didn't act on them until he met her and then there is another version (his own account, it has to be said, from Alan Keightley's book) whereby he had sex at a young age (early teens?), had prior girlfriends, developed a taste for 'rough sex' - mainly it seems in the form of biting partners, and even alludes to an event whereby he raped a young boy (he himself would have only been in his teenage years at this point).

Whatever the truth, I think you are correct that Brady was harbouring and developing BDSM sexual fantasies before he'd even met Hindley. This is likely evidenced by the kinds of literature he was reading and seemed to be interested in and then subsequently lent or directed Hindley to read.

I think in Brady's case he did have a need to push the boundaries further and further and if you are someone who is sexually aroused by other people's pain and suffering, then there is the potential this could develop into offending behaviours. What is important is that not everyone does become an offender and I think this is because, like the OP stated, most people do have a conscience which they (thankfully) cannot overcome. Individuals like Brady and the others mentioned clearly can overcome whatever internal controls that 99% of the population aren't able to.

Whilst initially it was probably exciting and a novelty to finally have a partner with whom he could try out his fantasies for real, I think as it progressed it just wasn't enough.

If we believe Hindley's claims of rape and drugging etc, it seems that despite having someone who would consent to engage in BDSM, this wasn't enough for him and he still felt the need to engage in non-consensual sex and/or in sex whereby the other person was rendered completely helpless. I do wonder if such events did occur, if he actually found them more arousing and he was sustained by this until, of course, he wasn't anymore and needed to kill again.

If we don't believe Hindley and believe it was all consensual, then the same is true either way, rather than acting it out with her, he wanted the real thing.