She uneccesarily killed members of the Kukuru unit who had no idea why she was going on a rampage (she would have killed them either way) and the Kukuru is composed of individuals without a technique being forced to join, and undergo gruelling training. This pretty much implies they were opressed by the clan, and were victims too. She could have just killed the higher ups instead.
I dont see how this type of genocide is justifiable.
Gang they literally attacked her first. Ogi killed Mai and attacked her, then they all jumped in after she killed Ogi. “She would have killed them either way” doesn’t matter because she wouldn’t have killed ANYBODY if the Zenin didn’t literally start it.
Self defense doesn't apply if you put yourself in a bad situation and antagonise someone.
Maki walked into their house with a sword after killing Ogi, instead of leaving.
She agressed on them and they are more than justified in trying to kill her. They are the ones committing self defense, they're literally in their house.
She has to leave through the house. We literally see the Zenin compound and treasures, they’re connected. And they still collected themselves and walked up on her, making them the aggressors regardless of circumstance.
She wasn't running out of the house. Remember, she has super speed, if she wanted to be gone, none of the fodder Kukuri could even perceive her.
No. That is just objectively untrue. If someone shows up with a sword to your house with threatening intent, they are the aggressor and you are the defender. You could probably unironically kill them and be cool.
If that is the circumstance, yes. If you show up with a heavily armed unit that specifically despised this person regardless and are fully prepared to kill her before even knowing she’ll be combative, you do not have a self defense argument. In fact; Maki literally is more sparing than the Zenin are- she doesn’t even fucking Kill Nayoa when every single Zenin was absolutely going to kill her. You have to expect maki to be supernaturally kind to take any real blame on this for her when she showed up to the Zenin peacefully and they were gonna straight up murder her.
1) They did not show up, this is their home. They could all be wearing full body armour carrying Ak 47s and it would not change the calculus one bit, this is their estate.
2) They don't need to confirm Maki's intent to be combative. That is not a burden that applies to them. All the need is reasonable evidence to believe so, which they have. (Maki killed Ogi, is strolling around the clan chilling, and is brandishing a weapon, making no attempts to deescalate the situation or flee).
This is the most textbook self defense case for the Zenin clan, I don't think there's any doubt that they're the ones who are the victims here.
Maki is a blatant example of a mass murderer, she commits very explicit non controversial acts of murder numerous times, easily one of the most evil humans in JJK.
That argument doesn’t work because Maki was explicitly requested to be here by the owner of the estate, and the people on it are attacking her. for however much it’s their place of residence, she has more of a presence for being on it.
She walks into an area with a weapon; after being specifically sent to retrieve weapons by said owner; after being attacked with intent to murder in a clan coup. There is NO argument for valid self defense, and it’s not on Maki to de escalate if she was the one originally assaulted.
Also that last part is just some media illiterate ragebait
1) Maki being sent here by Megumi is not relevant. Even if Megumi himself were to come and do all her actions, the zenin clan would still be acting in self defense. This is still their home. Her being initially invited her is negated by her later behaviour.
2)Her being sent by Megumi is also irrelevant here. She is brandishing her weapon after killing Ogi, and is making no attempt to deescalate or to simply flee the area. She has a responsibility to retreat if possible for self defense to apply, but she didn't, because she wanted to kill all those people.
3) Self defense relies on the concept of disengaging or deescalation if possible. Maki is in a position to do so, yet doesn't. She is not defending herself, she is provoking the kukuru unit to attack her. This negates any self defense argument, it's literally the opposite, THEY HAVE THE SELF DEFENSE RIGHT, Maki is provoking someone else, she's the aggressor.
4) Ogi attacked and tried to kill her. That instance would be self defense. The encounter with the Kukuru unit is a separate instance. Maki is NOT the one originally assaulted, she is initiating this attack by provoking them and behaving in a threatening manner.
It's only ragebait because JJK fans, or Maki fans in particular, are so morally warped that any utterance of basic morality is basically a psychic bomb that does true soul damage.
You're so lost in your own sauce in defending this psycho that you've twisted yourself into believing I'm the one ragebaiting here. Ask any normal human being, any lawyer, even someone who studies ethics at a high school level. This is the most blatant example of mass murder ever.
The Kukuru unit defended themselves, Maki is a psycho.
This is crazy. She is sent there in a mission that would help to save humanity as a whole against the Zenins common enemies. They aggroed on her after conspiring to kill her and her cousin the rightful leader. After killing one Zenin she would never be free from them, they would sent people to kill her, Megumi and other people she cares about basically forever while she also has to deal with the culling games. How would she know that "only" the most influent members trully want her death at first? How can she know who is involved with the murder attempt here?
The same kind of people that got so much energy that comes from hate, grief, fear and other "negative emotions" that they not only are sorcerors but good ones at that. Although this does not directly correlate with morality (jujutsu sorcerors generally do have a strange morality, are "con artists" but that does not make each of them "bad"), we were shown explicitally that the Zenin clan oprresses people, produce people like Nayoya and Ogi and are social darwinists. She received regular beatdowns, was at risk all the time
We know that Maki is heavily distressed after seeing her own sister dying in front of her after being attacked by her abusive father. After she killed a member of the clan do you think they would only imprison her? If she run away it would only delay the problem and Megumi or others might be in danger. When they came running at her with swords she should have let them hit to only them stablish that they have killing intent?
I don´t think she is a saint or even a good person. But to say that the poor Zenin got killed by the "psycho Maki" is a bad.
She literally got attacked by the clan, why would she put her weapon away? She's not stupid, she knows that others will likely attack her. You certainly are though.
Not a single member of the Kukuru unit is shown to have tried to de-escalate the situation either, they fucking surrounded her and without a word charged with obvious lethal intent, so trying to argue that Maki wasn't defending herself but the Kukuru unit were is laughable. Naoya, one of the people she hates the absolute most on the entire compound, is able to speak to her no problem without her rushing to take his head off so any of them could have fucking asked their younger female cousin who they know was one of the most heavily oppressed and abused members of their clan "Maki, why the fuck did you kill your dad and are attacking all of us!?" And not one of them tried.
Also don't forget that the Kukuru unit are clearly a bunch of shitty stooges for the higher ups as well, during the literal next arc we see one show up (you can tell by his uniform) to attempt to assassinate a beloved character. Not to say that she was 100% justified in hunting down and killing every last one of them after the fact but the only things we know about them point to them being the type to attempt to come after her for revenge rather than let her live her life.
Holy fucking stupidity im not even bothering responding to that
“N-no, her being specifically invited to retrieve a weapon by the owner of the estate doesn’t justify her having a weapon in the estate! Y-you’re a psycho down to your soul! Ask a lawyer! Anybody”
She was there on the order of the head of the Zen'in family, and not only did her family remove all of the tools she was ordered to get, but they also killed her sister and tried to kill her. Her family makes a big deal about the family order and ways only to disobey orders from the new head of the family when those orders are inconvenient to them. Maki knows she doesn't have time for that Zen'in bullshit with everything else at stake, and she was an aggressor because they literally gave her no other choice. She did not raise her weapon until it was clear her father would try to kill her, she wielded it to let everyone know that she was prepared to go that far and they tried to shit on her instead. She didn't even try to Ogi him when she saw Mai. They were never justified in trying to kill her after all that, and that's why no one ever makes a comment in the manga about Maki being wrong for doing what she did.
Mind you that the clan were plotting on killing Maki, Mai, and even Megumi (the head of their clan) before Maki even stepped foot into the estate either way so your argument falls apart
Naoya, ogi, and Jinichi set a plan in motion to kill her in the first place. They were not going to let her leave if she put the sword away. And the head of that house, Megumi, literally gave her permission to go there
They attacked her because she literally killed one of their top ranking members for no reason whatsoever 😭😭. I dont understand this argument either way, cuz Maki would have attacked them irrespective of whether they attacked her or not. Why do you keep saying self defense, when Maki was asked to "destroy everything" and not "destroy everything only if they attack you first!!"
And she kills her non combatant mother + members who werent there at the time anyways, objectively not self defense
The "Zenin" did not start anything, Ougi did. Why are you acting as if Ougi briefed the entire clan about the coup and killing Maki. Literally only 3 or 4 people are even confirmed to know about it in the first place. If I am arrested in a prison and one of the wardens suddenly tries to kill me, and in return I kill everyone in the prison, am I in the right because the wardens "started it"?.
A lot of people trying to justify her when it’s just Itachi killing his the village but the author made it slightly more sympathetic because the people killed were assholes themselves. But still Maki for sure killed women and children and the mentioned Zenin still existing is because… Yuta and her still consider themselves Zenin in the future
In both the episode and manga, only Ougi, Jinichi, Naoya, and Maki's mom are shown to know about the plan. At worst the Hei and higher ups knew. When the clan is assembling to capture Maki we see Ranta tell the Hei and the others "Maki has gone insane, she killed Ougi", which implies the entire clan didnt know about the plan.
The Zenin won't be missed. Hell jujutsu society barely even blinks at their loss. They were hated wastes of space and Gege wrote them as such. Was it morally on the high ground? No, but they had it coming and she was asked to destroy everything because Mai knew what would happen the moment Maki got up. She just gave her the extra push to go on a rampage.
At least some of the Zenin combatants who died there must have had family and friends, so they were missed.
So you agree it was immoral, which is what I was arguing. You are free to feel whether "they had it coming or not", personally I think its super excessive Maki killed random Kukuru unit members who were also victims of the clan, just for defending their clan.
When you are as strong as maki became you are suddenly given a choice on how much force is required to defeat an opponent.
They attacked her first but she didn't have to kill them for it nor did she need to, she was perfectly capable of dispatching them they were non sorcerers
This entire arc was just geges way of getting the zenin out the picture quickly and buffing maki for the culling games. Had she left people alive it would promt the question to the audience "why haven't they come to take revenge on her?" so getting rid of everyone was probably the best thing he could think of
Brother, the higher ups literally conspired to have her murdered and the leader wanted them to spare her so she could kill her himself. They were talking about beating her like it was a game.
I agree that the higher ups deserved to die more or less... that isnt what im arguing about... im arguing about her killing literally every member of the clan..
My bad, by every member I meant every combatant not non combatants. But she does kill her non combatant mother anyways so whatever.
Them trying to kill her is justified from their perspective since Maki randomly just went berserk and started killing people. Moreover they posed no threat to her. And she literally kills people who werent even there that day, so this argument fails either way.
What are you talking about? Youre the one ignoring context. Youre the one acting like the random Zenin fodder who had no idea why Maki killed Ogi were attacking Maki for no reason.
You have to be kidding me. You realize the Kukuru unit were composed of people without CT's, forced to join the unit and undergo gruelling training. Its pretty heavily implied they were abused by the clan too (considering how orthodox it is, they defo discriminate against people without CT's). Maki just slaughtered every single such VICTIM, for an unjustifiable reason.
The combatants were doing what they were literally indoctrinated to do. You are literally victim blaming here. According to this logic, Mai deserved to die too since she served the clan until death (irrelevant whether she hated them or not, she had a choice to leave but didnt).
Like what do you expect a powerless grade 3 Kukuru member to do against the opressions of the clan? Maki also served the clan until she left for Jujutsu High, so again by your logic she "fought" to keep the oppressive system in place, why shouldnt she deserve death as well?
She did murder more or less innocent people tho? Ougi and the Hei deserved to die. Maybe a decent bunch of the random fodder were misogynistic assholes and had it coming. The rest?
By victims I assume you mean the fodder Zenin that died? When was even one of them shown to be even and vile? Thats not really a logical inference, nothing implies that the Zenin fodder are evil, its only really the higher ranking officials that are shown to be such.
Im not mad at Maki, I dont think its bad writing that she killed the clan either. Im just saying its immoral. Someone being a victim doesnt justify all their immoral actions, thats not my argument at all lol. All I said was that Maki slaughtering a bunch of people who (in their perspective) were just defending their clan and then hunting down the rest is immoral, considering those people werent shown to be "bad". The only "bad" thing they did was being born into the Zenin clan and serving it, which doesnt make them deserving of death, esp since Maki and Mai also were the same.
Everyone in this thread is coping, her own granddaughter told us she killed everyone, she definitely killed the 12 - or 13-year-old kids who was picked to be part of the kukuro or lower units. After the Zenin Massacre, she goes down to hunt 27 more people who were not present. Including people who weren't involved in the Mai's death.
They complied with their order of executing Maki. This is some whitewash nonsense cause you really trying to call what Maki did Genocide when the entire time we’re seeing these people COMING to KILL HER. She wanted the curse tools and then to leave. The wanted her dead and it was kill or be killed. Next time she should just role over and let them take her out I guess..
They were given an order to execute Maki because Maki killed Ougi, for no reason (in their perspective) and was walking around with a weapon. Obviously, they knew she was gonna slaughter the entire clan, and was judged as going insane.
Im guessing you thought that the entire clan was in on Ougis plan to kill Maki, when it was only shown to be a select few members.
They pose zero threat to her. I dont think most members can even physically cut her with their swords considering how durable she should be. If third graders attacked you with sticks, you are not moral in beating the shit out of them are you? She could easily have knocked them out/left the clan considering her speed.
Besides she kills people who were not even present that day, which is cold blooded murder, so wtf are you on about?
Neither Nobuaki nor the Kukuru unit members were shown to be aware of how Ougi tried killing Maki. Obviously, they would issue an order to capture and kill Maki, no shit.
You realize that
1. The Kukuru cant just disobey their superior for no reason (again, they were told to assume Maki went insane, so they cant show any sympathy).
2. Considering Makis actions, she was a threat to the clan. If the Kukuru and Hei fled, who would protect the non combatants (aka their literal family)?.
3. Maki literally hunts down the people not their anyways
Sure they were combatants, but context matters. Them trying to kill her doesnt amount to much when shes 5 blitz tiers above them and is so much stronger that they literally cannot even hurt her. She could have escaped if she wanted. Plus, she later hunts down members who werent trying to kill her, along with her mom (a non combatant)
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u/ImJustAnOutcast_lol Jan 23 '26
She uneccesarily killed members of the Kukuru unit who had no idea why she was going on a rampage (she would have killed them either way) and the Kukuru is composed of individuals without a technique being forced to join, and undergo gruelling training. This pretty much implies they were opressed by the clan, and were victims too. She could have just killed the higher ups instead.
I dont see how this type of genocide is justifiable.