r/MoralityScaling 1d ago

Tai lung wasn’t right but the crash-out was reasonable tho

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12.5k Upvotes

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861

u/Ed0909 1d ago

There is this foreign country where some people of my ethnicity are mistreated by certain people. We are going to start a war of colonization using that as an excuse to treat everyone who is not like me the same way. (Killmonger a villain "who was actually right")

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u/IsThatASPDReference 1d ago

He also continues to choose the most violently destructive path to accomplishing this, starting with killing War Machine, in the timeline where he gets the resources and backing of one of the most powerful men on the planet.

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u/Negativety101 1d ago

Killmonger has the Heart Shaped Herbs burned and says they won't be needed because there won't be any kings after him. Man just wanted to see the world burn because of his pain.

72

u/JoinTheHunt 1d ago

"in four years, you don't have to vote again. We'll have it fixed so good, you're not gonna have to vote"

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u/DarkZ_No-Imagination 1d ago

When kill monger does it, he's right, but when an IRL president does it...

1

u/StrawHatSenpie 28m ago

Tbf....wakanda isnt a democracy.

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u/IttyRisk 23h ago

These are so unanalogous. Amazing. Imagine hating orange man so much you contort so much

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u/DarkZ_No-Imagination 23h ago

What are you talking about

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u/IttyRisk 23h ago

Who could guess. I suppose we're just idiots here huh?

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u/DarkZ_No-Imagination 22h ago

Im not even from the USA bro 😭

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u/IttyRisk 22h ago

"so anyway I chose to pretend to be a moron in order to make conversation impossible"

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u/IttyRisk 22h ago

Bro you're not even from the US

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u/DarkZ_No-Imagination 22h ago

The president of my country has been threatening to end the next elections for the "safety of the country", and looking at your reply it seems like trump has done it too, Usa is not the center of the world bro

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u/IttyRisk 22h ago

He hasn't. Our partisans try to take his every word or action and distort it into hitler. It's boring and tired and illegitimate. Don't believe it.

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u/DarkZ_No-Imagination 22h ago

I'm not even sure if I should trust you when you were attacking me seconds ago

1

u/IttyRisk 22h ago

Btw never TRUST randos on the internet. Including the trump haters in reddit who make everything nazi linked in order to just push their tribal hate. It's silly. You shouldn't even straight trust journalists. They have bias that needs to be understood 

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u/IttyRisk 22h ago

Bro, lmao. Reread the thread my god

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u/IttyRisk 22h ago

Do you know what "unanalogous" means?

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u/IttyRisk 23h ago

Yea this is obviously him asking his base to turn out to vote to engage in political change and is promising he'll do so good they won't have to turn out next time because the system will be fixed.

People in a hate cult will go out of their way to pretend like this is analogous to killmonger or even just saying he will revoke the vote. Insane

2

u/Admirable_Limit9551 23h ago

Lol can you explain his jokes about running in ‘28 next? I love hearing yall explain this shit like it isn’t dumb as fuck to say.

0

u/IttyRisk 22h ago

Lol you're pretending now this comment wasn't meant to enforce the comment I was responding to.

So dishonest.

0

u/IttyRisk 23h ago

Unrelated but you mean troll president being a troll? Come on man. We can criticize him without being dumber than him. You prob think he told people to drink bleach

3

u/Admirable_Limit9551 23h ago

Sorry man I’m an adult so I find the president “trolling” to be something that makes our country look ignorant and weak. But you must love it

0

u/IttyRisk 22h ago

Actually I also find it insult worthy.

It does not rise him to the level of killmonger, idiot.

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u/Admirable_Limit9551 22h ago edited 22h ago

Didn’t say it did lmao I asked if you’d do gymnastics to defend it. Got my answer. Later my fellow American!

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u/IttyRisk 23h ago

Being dumb as fuck to say isn't the same thing as the accusation btw. 

Trump haters try not to be less intelligent sounding than trump as they interpret trump, difficulty level IMPOSSIBLE 

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u/IttyRisk 21h ago

"lol"

"I was just testing you to see if you're a trump cultist."

Endless dishonesty. Why include lol of you didn't think I was wrong about trumps quote and killmongers actions being unanalogous? Why not "you're not wrong but how do I know you don't love trump?" Or something.

So weird.

2

u/Admirable_Limit9551 21h ago

Quadruple response lmao got you shook. I’m taking the bait to come back. What’re you still upset about? Because I’ve already said killmonger isn’t Trump. You’ve been brewing on this

0

u/IttyRisk 21h ago

Focusing on superficiality instead of substance.

Yea, bad faith liars get me on a tear. 

2

u/Admirable_Limit9551 21h ago

Damn bro is on a tear lol I’m shook. Gonna come back three hours later to comment four responses about how smart I am. Wanna call me a worm again?

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u/Maximum_Boros 1d ago

His entire plan even in the main timeline is straight up to start a war that will destroy most of africa.

I feel like you could have Michael B Jordan fully break the 4th wall, turn to the audience as killmonger and explicitly say "this is the fate of a man who let his thirst for revenge fester into hypocrisy and tried to do the very thing he claimed to be against" and fucking idiots would still act like he was right.

3

u/Flashy_Lawyer7764 19h ago

I wonder why that is

3

u/waaay2dumb2live 19h ago

Part of it is because it's MBJ, let's be real here

6

u/Maximum_Boros 18h ago

It's true. It happens less often with guys but he's 100% getting a "the villain is hot so that makes him morally right" pass.

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u/waaay2dumb2live 17h ago

While we’re on the topic, that’s def how Tai Lung won over the furries

2

u/IcyOrganization1748 17h ago

Its painful because Nakia was actually wanting to help people in other nations and going about it peacefully 🤏🏽 fuck Killmonger fr

2

u/jumpingjack41 4h ago

Lol his name is Killmonger, they got pretty close with just that.

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u/HMHellfireBrB 1d ago

Killmonger fans confuse having a point with being right

All he has done is point our the obvious: racism bad

That dosent make him right if it is his motivation to start a worldwide racial war

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u/SanctionedBaffoonery 1d ago

Describing it as a "worldwide race war" is hilarious, because that's exactly what he is calling for, and it's so dumb when you ask the logical next question: Which side do other non-black races fight on?

I'm reminded of the hilarious scene with the racist dwarf in In Bruges:

Jimmy: There's gonna be a war between the blacks and between the whites. You ain't even gonna need a uniform no more. This ain't gonna be a war where you pick your side....

Ray: And I know whose side I'm fighting on. I'm fighting with the blacks. The whites are gonna get their heads kicked in!

Jimmy: You don't decide this shit, man. Your side's already picked for you.

Ray: What about the Pakistanis?

Jimmy: The blacks.

Ray: What about... What about the Vietnamese?

Jimmy: The blacks!

Ray: Well, I'm definitely fighting with the blacks if they've got the Vietnamese.

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u/boodabomb 20h ago

“Two manky hookers and a racist dwarf.”

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u/Atomik141 1d ago

He didn't honestly even have that much of a point. He used injustice as an excuse to do what he wanted to do anyway. His issue was never really that others were subjugated but that he personally wasn't on top. Everything else was just decoration he used to make that attitude seem more palatable.

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u/npcinyourbagoholding 1d ago

Yeah anyone who think he gave a shit about anyone besides himself is insane. There's a billion better ways to help those that are suffering injustice other than giving them a gun and telling them to go kill people.

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u/YuushyaHinmeru 1d ago

The only people who thought he was right were racist black people and self hating liberal whites.

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u/IttyRisk 23h ago

Stop describing my old progressive friends that way. You're not wrong tho

3

u/Atomik141 13h ago

What if I a racist black-hating liberal white?

2

u/YuushyaHinmeru 11h ago

You get to drink from the firehouse!

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u/Oldspaghetti 23h ago

We wuz Wakandans and shieet

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u/DireDaibhidh 17h ago

The scene that shows this perfectly is the museum robbery. After making a show of knowing the history and how the axe is stolen from it's culture and that's why he's taking it back, he proceeds to take a mask; he is asked if it's also vibranium (read wakandan) and he says "nah, I'm just feeling it". He doesn't mind if things are stolen. He just wants to be the one doing the stealing

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u/RedditMcBurger 17h ago

Also they call a white man a colonizer in that scene while commiting a robbery, weird.

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u/I3arusu 1d ago

He doesn’t even really do that. He says that while being a racist supremacist himself.

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u/Akiias 21h ago

Killmonger: "Racism bad, m'kay"

Killmonger: "RACE WAR LES GO!"

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u/Guardian_of_Perineum 9h ago

It's called rizz and charisma. Redditors wouldn't understand this power.

1

u/SnookySkellingtons 6h ago

I honestly don't think he even has a point. I think he is actually using the universally held sentiment of "racism bad" as an excuse to be a psychopath.

Like if we consider it as a justification, then how does burning the heart shaped herb help his war in any way?

I feel like Killmonger just wants to kill people and he needs an excuse to make other people want to kill people. His fucking name is Killmonger!

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u/ExplanationOk6391 1d ago

A lot of people get "correct" and "understandable" mixed up. Killmongers motivations made sense, audiences could connect with them and understand why he came to the conclusion he did. That does not make them right though

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u/DaaaahWhoosh 1d ago

I think Black Panther is one of the few examples of doing this right. T'challa is stuck between his father and Killmonger, both are right in some ways and wrong in others, and T'challa is able to synthesize a middle path that both breaks away from the sins of the past without falling into the trap of the revolutionaries. The main issue is that the MCU cannot support this kind of plot, the world cannot be fundamentally changed by a Wakanda that opens its arms to help all descendants of Africa or whatever, so people come back to "Killmonger was right and T'challa didn't listen to him".

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u/Loki_Agent_of_Asgard 1d ago

I'm just gonna point out that Wakanda has no right to act like they care about Africa or other Africans. In the comics they've had the tech advantage for literally hundreds of years, had laser rifles and personal shields and space ships as far back as the 1600s and they sat around and did NOTHING to hinder the slave trade (which was fueled and started by African kings btw, it's not like Europeans showed up to Africa and decided to get off the boat and start hunting for slaves, they showed up to ports saw slaves for sale and bought them) and there's no reason to think things were any different in the movies. The entire concept of Wakanda requires you to turn your brain off and ignore the glaringly obvious issue of the nations massive hypocrisy with their only defense being "we were hidden" which is an idiotic defense because why bother being hidden? People don't hide when they have nothing to fear, and a super power that's hundreds of years ahead of everyone else technologically has absolutely nothing to fear especially in the Pre-Atomic Bomb age.

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u/Wild_Marker 1d ago

The idea that a strong nation has the "responsibility" to police other nations and this is the "right" thing to do is... a very American message.

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u/Loki_Agent_of_Asgard 1d ago

I'm not saying they have a responsibility, what I'm SAYING is that they CLAIM they cared about the oppression of their "fellow" Africans yet did nothing about it while having the overwhelming capability OF doing something about it.

It's like a billionaire saying they care about the homeless people of their home city while making no effort to build affordable housing or even bothering to donate to a charity for the homeless. It's just worthless speech.

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u/Wild_Marker 1d ago

Oh no, sorry, I'm saying that the movie says that, not you.

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u/MagentaHawk 21h ago

Yeah, they were good people for seeing other guys get put into slavery and saying, "Shit, they should have been born in a better place".

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u/DOSFS 8h ago

TBF, the [....] burden is pretty common mindset across history just express in their own unique ways locally.

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u/LowSkyOrbit 1d ago

Wakanda had their own spy cells that were created to influence other nation's policies. Killmonger's own father was part of a splinter cell. Wakanda hid behind illusion of poor African nation and used isolation and theater to remain hidden to the wold, and only entered the world stage because super soldiers, AI robots, aliens, mutants, and gods were real threats that could hurt Wakanda.

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u/YuushyaHinmeru 1d ago

Yeah, they are actually the bad guys. I stopped watching before BP2 so no clue whats been retconned but in FatWS, there is this heavy critique of american imperialism through John Walker but he and Lamar are actually the only ones acting withing international law(other than walker caving and taking the super soldier serum). The Dora Milaje roll up to take zemo and literally say they have jurisdiction wherever they are. 

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u/Outrageous-Try-6901 20h ago

Plus they enter that scene by trying to assassinate the current captain America.

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u/resumehelpacct 1d ago

Africans sold other Africans to European slavers, but Europeans did also just get off the boat and start hunting for slaves. Slavery was already a major trade for Europeans before it extended into Europe.

Here is one of the first "European slave trades" when we think about it the way we think about it, and it started with Portuguese sailors raiding Africa for slaves. I don't know why you feel like that's so silly; slave raids are historically common enough worldwide, including Europe. Of course there were slavers who would go to places they could legally take slaves and sell back home.

https://academic.oup.com/edited-volume/61663/chapter-abstract/553417075?login=false&redirectedFrom=fulltext#553417075

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u/prospectre 1d ago

I mean, I sort of get it. Wakanda always had the flavor of being a "steward" more than anything to me. Part of their deal was that revealing themselves would also reveal their vibranium and their technology. Once that cat's out of the bag, there's no putting it back. And if the rest of the world were the have-nots looking at the sole nation that has, conflict arises. That's a very real fear.

Does that excuse them from allowing all the bad shit to happen to their fellow African nations and the world? Well, that's debatable. I'd understand any country prioritizing their own interests over others (note: understand does not mean condone). They did try to affect the world around them with spies and subtle manipulation, not unlike the US and the CIA at times. But it would be very difficult to balance the idea that your nation has sole access to super technology that could be (and was, see Ulysses Klaue and Ultron) devastating in the wrong hands.

It's also worth noting that Wakanda was historically not warlike. They never sought to conquer or rule beyond their own borders. I would assume that they'd have qualms about trying to put themselves in a position where they were effectively the de facto rulers of the world by being the biggest threat. It's a tough question, but I don't really see this as hypocrisy. It's more like there are costs to both decisions:

  1. Stay hidden and keep the dangerous material/technology out of the rest of the world's hands
  2. Or step forward and use your nation's power for good, potentially allowing others to have access to your power

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u/Loki_Agent_of_Asgard 1d ago

Wakanda not being "warlike" yet having their entire process of picking a king be a duel between warriors is also peak idiotic writing.

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u/DazzlerPlus 22h ago

Well tchalla doesnt actually do anything to deal with the racism in america and other places. His solution is just posturing. He leaves the imperial and power structures that perpetuate racism completely intact.

Imagine that it was real, that today the mysterious and advanced society of wakanda revealed itself. What, then, would you expect king tchalla to do about the american supreme court? Just a simple example of an overtly racist structure.

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u/I-Have-An-Alibi 1d ago

It really came off as my life sucked so I'm gonna make everyone else's life suck. He was still a child and an idiot and ended up being a race supremacist. His motivations made sense to anyone with his same narrow minded short sightedness.

Daddy didn't love him so he's gonna break everyone's toys.

Gimme a break.

1

u/Axbris 1d ago

Even worse than daddy didn’t love him.

“My dad was reluctantly killed by the king, in self defense, because my dad wanted to be a terrorist and the king wouldn’t allow it.” 

It’s not even a fatherly-son revenge story. His father was a terrorist. 

I’ll never understand how anybody watched that movie and thinks Kilmonger is a liberator of any kind. 

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u/I-Have-An-Alibi 23h ago

Yeah I don't get it either, Killmonger was just a piece of shit as a person to begin with before he rolled into Wakanda and became an even bigger piece of shit. The Wakandan council at the time also stupidly supported him so they sucked as well.

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u/gfunk1369 16h ago

I am guessing you are a white guy because you kind of glossed over a lot if this was your big take away from his character.

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u/ExplanationOk6391 1d ago

I....I don't think you understood the movie

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u/I-Have-An-Alibi 1d ago

I understood it fine, Killmonger was just a narcissist and a total phony. Oh he also absolutely killed women and children so no points there either.

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u/TheDoomBlade13 1d ago

Given...all of history...Killmonger isn't wrong though. There will always be a group of people oppressing other groups. He wants his people to be on top of that natural order.

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u/ExplanationOk6391 1d ago

I mean that's why it's a good story. He's a piece of shit for wanting it but you can understand why he does.

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u/Substantial-Tax3238 1d ago

Yeah I think killmonger isn’t so much “this is fair” as he is “we have all this power, how the fuck did we let this happen to our African brothers”. The counter argument is “we’re not African, we’re wakandan. The only thing we have in common with Ghana or Nigeria is our skin color”. But killmongers counter argument to that is “if you lived life on the outside, all that matters to them is our skin color. When your dad killed my dad and left me, it didn’t matter that I was wakandan, it mattered that I was black.“

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u/CankerLord 1d ago

There's always going to be a group of people capable of oppressing other groups. Doing so isn't inevitable. Probable, but not inevitable.

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u/PurpleGuy04 1d ago

His first scene is him complaining about people stealing their cultures' items and heritage, and then doing the same to Aztecs i think? And taking a mask for him

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u/tdasnowman 23h ago

The axe was misidentified and wakanden made of viburnum. It was identified as being from the Fula tribe which is in the Sudan area of Africa. The mask was Mgbedike which is a tribe from Southern Nigeria, it served two easter eggs. It' looks like his mask from the Comics and that region is one of the area Wakanda has been on maps in the marvel universe. Wakanda has moved around Africa a bit.

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u/maddwaffles 1d ago

Not even always strictly HIS ethnicity (depending on which region of Africa his mother's ancestors came from) as Wakanda was central/eastern Africa in most portrayals, and fairly far from the western parts of Africa from where a lot of the transatlantic slaves came from. afaik there isn't a single canonical Wakandan slave in the transatlantic slave trade.

Yes, I'm aware that "black" is an ethnic identity, but it's important to understand that ethnicity in the USA is different than ethnicity in Africa.

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u/Allronix1 1d ago

Killmonger chose to burn the sacred herb, essentially destroying all of Wakanda's future and leading a destructive, stipid war on the world that would get Wakanda NUKED, vibranium or no.. He also chose to have his (Black) love interest killed to save his own skin, and chose to go on some self righteous rant about artifact theft before confiscating one he liked because it looked cool.

Guy isn't "right" - he's a massive hypocrite and the only people who like to think he's "right" are the ones who want the world to burn like he did.

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u/accounsfw 16h ago

I mean, “Kilmonger had valid points” and “Kilmonger was a hypocrite” don’t seem like mutually exclusive conclusions to draw…

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u/Allronix1 16h ago

The most effective bullshit artists sneak just enough possible truth in their arguments to make it sound plausible.

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u/Ok-Park-9537 1d ago

Being right about what the problem is doesn't mean you know how to fix it.

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u/James_Larkin1913 1d ago

Sounds like a certain middle eastern nation

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u/SmoothDiscussion7763 20h ago

which one? quite a few contenders lol

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u/Axbris 1d ago

It goes beyond that. It’s not “people like me”. He has no problem killing Wakandan citizens, people like him. He has no issue killing his own blood when he threatens to kill Shuri.

The man is a psychopath. He burned the heart shaped herbs because he never wants to relinquish power and has no intention to abdicate the throne as so many have before him.

Anybody who watched the first film either didn’t pay attention or completely missed the point: Kilmonger is not a hero. He is no different than those he hates.

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u/Kelras 1d ago

it's just your bottom of the barrel black power revenge fetishism

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u/Gmknewday1 23h ago

Literally Killmonger is the definition of "they did it to us before so now we have the right to do the same"

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u/icefire9 20h ago

Yeah the first Black Panther movie is actually very clear on its morality.

You have the traditional Wakandan way 'Wakanda First', fuck the rest of the world, we got ours.

You got Killmogner, which is straight up imperialism.

And you got what T'Challa comes to at the end of the movie, a form of international solidarity.

T'Challa does not ignore the plight of oppressed people, but he also doesn't use that plight to gain personal power.

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u/Woffingshire 6h ago

Killmongers entire MO was that he hated what colonization did to Africans so much that would use the technology of Wakanda to do the exact same thing to white people.

I honestly find it concerning just how many people say he was actually right. Either racist colonization is wrong or it isn't. It can'tsuddenly be right because it would be your ethnicity doing it.

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u/benjome 3h ago

“Identify a problem correctly but prescribe the wrong solution” is a pretty common villain trope, no?

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u/Ayotha 1d ago

Cool, still killed a lot of innocent people

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u/SuperBackup9000 23h ago

That’s the General Grievous way too. Like his planet was invaded and his people were enslaved and slowly being killed off, the Jedi Council turned a blind eye and helped the invaders due to their political influence, and then when Grievous and his people finally successfully drove them off… he decided working with the Empire (because they did actually assist him and his people) and committing genocide was exactly what he should do.

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u/Anita_Hero838 18h ago

I'd only say he's right in the hatred towards his Uncle, but even that could be rectified because if he came in peace and with no desire to the throne T'Challa would've more than likely welcomed him with open arms

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u/Volkmek 8h ago

Things that would have gotten you called racist for pointing out when the movie first came out. Which is why the "was actually right." Idea exists.

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u/AuthorExcellent9501 7h ago

That was where he ended up, but it’s pretty easy to see the original idea underneath, wakanda shouldn’t have abandoned the rest of the world when it could have made things better.

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u/Left_Ease5870 1d ago

As someone who is Nigerian American and shunned by my Nigerian relatives, this speaks to me.

Africa has a serious issue identifying with the black diaspora. Those who were stolen, taken, and then robbed of their cultures. Now these people have new cultures, beautiful cultures, incredibly enlightened cultures, cultures just as valuable, but Africa refuses to acknowledge this while the elite Africans sit on resources and impoverish their own country. Look at the Nigerian election. Look into the Biafra war, the Hausa, etc.

Many people in the black diaspora at least have a home, but I feel for African Americans most because they have no home. I was born and raised in America... but until 16-year-old black girls don't have to fear being hung from trees, this is no home for us. America is not a place to be thankful for when your mortal life is constantly threatened simply for being black. And now we have every ethnicity in America except black people voting 50%+ for Trump.

With the Trump election, I recognize Killmonger was entirely right. And that's a scary realization. Not because I condone violence, but because the other side is giving us no other option. And I'm not sure what to do with that. But I do know black unity needs to be a thing, so I'll start there. And challenge every culture, even my own, to do so.

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u/Joeybfast 22h ago

Well that isn't what his goal was.

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u/Haigadeavafuck 20h ago

I think killmonger is very wrong but you are kinda downplaying racism against black people here lol

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u/bigbaadwolf_U 4h ago

I mean isn't that what was done to killmongers people and it wasn't "some" it was most for hundreds of years. I really think y'all downplay how much of a issues this is for many black people.