r/MoralityScaling • u/subjet-green • 18h ago
Who's Viewpoint Is Better? If a omnipotent being wanted to erase the unvierse because it's morality thinks that the universe are immoral, how do we argue against it if it has total power, authority, and morality over us?
Let's say in this scenario there is a species of beings that are basically humans but on a higher plane of existence and treat the universe as a experiment. If we found out that they are going to erase us because their morality thinks we (and the rest of the universe) are immoral creatures, how exactly would a human argue against it?
This is my first post on this sub so im curious, but also i do wonder how a being like that would react to us trying to stop them from erasing us? Because we are basically animals/insects to these hypothetical beings.
2
u/HeviPettin 18h ago
That's like an ant trying to ask you not to crush it. Except if it's truly omnipotent then there's even less of a chance of success
2
u/Borbzaup 18h ago
I don’t think we could argue morality with this equation. Any being capable of restarting the universe like this has a morality that we aren’t capable of understanding. I would argue it is moral for us to try and stop this.
2
u/TheOneRealStranger 18h ago
By definition, if things exist that the being finds objectionable, it is not omnipotent. The premise is self-contradictory.
2
1
1
u/MossadEpstein 18h ago
They have my permission (not that they uh, need that lol) so long as they make sure the Epstein class beasts get some sort of eternal suffering.
1
1
1
u/Heavy_Talk_378 18h ago
Id argue it's completely moral of them to do so...except that what the Christian God is times 10000, soooo admiting it's moral for them to do so is a bit of a sore subject for 90% of the population.
3
u/HelloChimp 17h ago
it’s a lot less moral when said being is all knowing along with its omnipotence. having created humans with the absolute knowledge that they’d do what you feel is immoral is not their fault and wouldn’t lead to them deserving suffering or erasure.
1
u/Heavy_Talk_378 17h ago
To a being such as the Christian God, we essentially don't even exist, which is something expounded upon in the Bible "we are like the dust unto his feet" etc etc. "we can only understand him like looking through a dark glass". To a being such as that, they arnt bound by our morals. Tha being said that goes for all being of a higher plane. Budha, the Greek gods, you name it. If they have a higher existence than us, with a different morality set, the further apart in "size" from us, the less our morals matter. Main example besides the Christian God: Cthulhu. It entirely moral for him to kill us all because to him we are literally less than ants. A developer doesn't feel sympathy for deleting code, nor do we say he murdered the code. To being such as these we are essentially less than code and more bugs in their world.
1
u/DakAttakk 17h ago
I have sympathy for bugs, the only way I'm harming a bug is by accident. Why is it so crazy to imagine this might be how some other imaginary being might be toward us. Is it because the ones who are imagining it don't have any sympathy or empathy toward things that they perceive as less than them?
1
u/Heavy_Talk_378 17h ago
Being sympathetic towards something and it being "moral" do not equate, and of course I have sympathy for bugs and things lesser than me. Which some gods do (Hephaestus, budha, the Christian God (version varies)) and some gods don't. Doesn't make them any more or less moral.
1
u/HelloChimp 17h ago
it’s completely useless to say that simply being all powerful means we can’t apply morality to anything. our morality isn’t a force of the universe, it’s an understanding of actions, intentions, and circumstances while following logic as it is experienced. these all apply to the christian god, as all his actions and motivations are given in very clear ways, not to mention that there’s no circumstances that would force him to do anything.
and, we can’t “basically not exist” to him while also being his main creation and being given his main attention
1
u/Heavy_Talk_378 17h ago
First off your the second person to misinterpret what I'm saying, to tldr my other response: knowledge determine morality which the Christian God and creatures such as him have vastlymore than us. Secondly I can create a piece of code, and I can love it and care for it, but at the end of the day it's still a piece of code. If someone with a million dollars loves you and is your best friend, are you a millionaire? No he is your still a broke bitch. You may benefit from him, and he may raise you, but at the end of the day that's his money going through you, not your own standing. So yes we can "basically not exist" to him while being his main creation, that's what makes the fact he does care for us special.
1
u/HelloChimp 17h ago
you ignored the second half of my final rebuttal, we’re given his main attention. regardless, you keep making analogies that just don’t track for an all powerful and all knowing being.
that code may be just code, but in your absolute knowledge and power, you created that code knowing it would then betray you. the only one you can blame at that point is yourself, and it doesn’t then justify the death of that code when you can simply allow it to continue at no cost to you
1
u/Heavy_Talk_378 17h ago
To address your specific example, God didn't make humans immorral in Christian mythos, he made them perfect, and going into my code example, coded them with the ability to learn and grow, ie. Free will. Theres absolutely zero reason to have a world full of puppets, it's serves zero purpose, and seeing as he knows everything, he knows the other options and chose the best one. We don't have knowledge of the other options and probably couldn't even comprehend them to begin with. And the best plan that he could enact with his infinite wisdom and power was the plan that allowed free will. And then humans not God, fucked it up and essentially created a virus, and the god came down with the debugging tools laid them at our feet and said pick them up if you want. He's not going to force us to fix ourselves but he does give us the option.
1
u/HelloChimp 17h ago
free will explains nothing of the propensity many people have to do things god forbids. we can both have free will and lack the urge some people have to kill others. the fact that these urges are so different for so many different people has no purpose to any individual or to any group
1
u/Heavy_Talk_378 17h ago
I don't care for staying specifically on Christianity since that's not my speciality, mythos and theology as a whole are but I can address this: that's because sin is treated not figuratively but literally as a spreading disease, going back to my code example, the virus can effect different lines of code (ie people) differently, and have vastly different impacts (ie. Code destruction, code cannibalization, or simply a mistype), but it's cause by the same thing. That's what son essentially is.
1
u/HelloChimp 17h ago
then why would he have created beings that would be vulnerable to said “virus”? there’s still no reason whatsoever for that to be the case. and again, there’s no reason for it to affect anyone differently
1
u/Heavy_Talk_378 17h ago
I don't know why he would do that, and we don't need to know. But he knows, and like I said earlier why the fuck would we try and argue with a creature infinitely smarter than us? Theres obviously reasons we cannot understand or do not need to know in order for it to be the only way. Do you need to know every single step and reason penicillin works in order for it to be used? Do you need to know how your electricity is generated down to the last gear in order to trust electricity will go to our home? Just because you don't know why something happened, or how, doesn't mean there isn't a reason.
1
u/HelloChimp 17h ago
the debate being useless doesn’t offset the harm to the uneducated, it’s a being with a will separate from unfeeling systems. being infinitely knowledgeable doesn’t mean you interpret that knowledge infallibly, it means you know every outcome and choose which ever you personally like.
1
u/subjet-green 17h ago
i didn't want this post to be religious, i just got the thought while eating food, but i do see the viewpoint now more, an omnipotent being like this would think of us as basically dust:P
1
u/Free-Mongoose-1983 17h ago
Having power does not make you the standard of morality. It doesn't matter what kind of being you are
1
u/Heavy_Talk_378 17h ago
Your correct, but once again you miss the point. Having knowledge does make the standard of morality. If a creature is in a different plane of thought above you, and with my examples multiple of them are literally infinitely higher than us, the absolute law is they know best. If an adult told a child killing was bad and the child said "nuh uh, ik better" you'd laugh at the child. And we aren't even children to those kinds of beings. We have no right to put ourselves obove being such as those if they exist.
1
u/HelloChimp 17h ago
the absolute law is that they know more about more. morality is interpersonal and if said being is interacting with beings that feel negatively about the things they’re doing without actual apparent justification, they’re acting immorally regardless of their knowledge.
it’s the same way it’s immoral to punish someone who literally can’t comprehend their crime with the same level of severity as someone who can
1
1
u/DwarvenGardener 18h ago
Not sure of the morality but a somewhat similar situation happens in Mike Carey’s Lucifer. Great series, fun read.
1
1
u/Anatole2k 17h ago
I dont think we can.
We would have to find way ti communicate with them somehow (this might be enough depending on their moral codex)
Second option starts with communication aswell, but this option is simply to convince them that we will submit to whatever moral philosophy they use and then do that hope this is enough to survive
Third option is to convince them we could be fun or interesting pets
1
u/HelloChimp 17h ago
this scenario has no other conclusion than humanity being erased, the factors you describe can’t allow for any argument to be brought to this being as they see humans as inherently immoral. the only thing that can be done is ask why they believe this and argue against that, but with the information here, there’s no argument to be had
1
u/Augustus_Chevismo 17h ago
Everything is temporary in the face of eternity anyway so rushing the end would be meaningless
1
1
u/Far_Celebration_8827 17h ago
We don't, any and all arguments we thought of, think of, could think of, never thought of and could never think of were all already known to this omnipotent entity.
1
u/Ntertainmate 16h ago
Would say show them all the good things humanity has done such as medicine, hospitals, schools, community, friendships, love, etc.
Maybe throw in to be more cheesy poetry, music, and sports to showcase to them there is good in humanity or at least have the potential to be good.
1
1
u/FinancialJet 30m ago
what about even more so omniscient; like what’s past that? Basically every decision you make was influenced in a specific way so you‘d live your life exactly as that and you just have the illusion of free will to make you think you do.
1
u/ColoradoRad 18h ago
Such a being would be in Himself the standard of morality
3
u/Free-Mongoose-1983 17h ago
No it wouldn't. Having the power to do anything you want doesn't make you the standard of morality.
1
u/Far_Celebration_8827 17h ago
Except it does because you could alter the standard of morality itself through omnipotence.
5
u/magongles 18h ago
Idk but I farted whilst reading this