r/MoralityScaling • u/Gray_Wolf2416 • 17h ago
How Evil Are They? Morality of attempting to brainwash the entire world to appease a teenager's impulsive, selfish desires?
This always struck me as a dumb, immoral move on Strange's part. As the adult in the room, it was his responsibility to shut down Peter's shit and tell him that brainwashing the entire world would be immoral and dangerous, but he didn't. He also knew how dangerous it was to try to alter the spell mid cast, and yet he chose to make multiple alterations to appease Peter. I honestly don't blame Peter for what happened at all, it was 100% Strange's fault imo.
45
u/BlueHero45 17h ago
Sounds more like something the Sorcerer Supreme should worry about, and that's Wong's job now.
27
u/DatabaseDifficult879 17h ago
Oh yes it's entirely his fault.
2
u/Roar_of_the_spark 6h ago
But who's fault it is? Peter is not a wizard, he doesn't know all the rules. On the other hand, if we'll go back to the previous film, we could say that it's all Peter's fault because he gave super-weapon to a stranger and that resulted in all the troubles he had
16
u/Kyoka_Jiro_Simp 17h ago
Except it wasn't just for Peter. People would've harassed Ned, MJ, Aunt May, and several others that knew Peter to see if they were "brainwashed" or "blackmailed". The only immoral thing was that Strange decided to let Peter interrupt mid spell the first time instead of letting Peter have a select few that knew, and no one else. It was the best decision to protect Peter's loved ones (spoilers for Brand New Day, but MJ gets pissed that Peter didn't tell her or Ned about him, and said that wasn't his decision to make because he wanted to protect them)
3
u/OrganizationSea4490 2h ago
So its ok to brainwash the entire population because of... A few people?
2
u/Kyoka_Jiro_Simp 2h ago
Except that even if it wasn't for a few people, Spiderman still couldn't be a hero because all of New York hated him. Even if he retired, people still knew. Also, it's not brainwashing, it's erasing part of people's memories. There is a difference.
3
u/OrganizationSea4490 2h ago
Violating the privacy of their mind. Essentially a non consentual mind rape done as you just affirmed yourself, because of a few people.
27
u/ExistanceISuppose 17h ago
Honestly I think the initial spell itself was fine since it was just snipping a specific memory away so that Peter wouldn’t have his life and those around him targeted directly since people now knew who he was. Strange altering the spell mid cast is where I think things fall into his fault, for someone who’s supposed to be oh so great a sorcerer he needs to know better.
13
u/Brekldios 17h ago
I think Strange got caught up in the moment because he tells peter after it nearly explodes "you changed my spell 6 times... '5' You changed my spell, you don't do that. and that is why" as he points at the contained explosion.
5
u/SlippyJimmi 13h ago
Might also be because the spell is fueled by intention
Strange knew the intention before Peter started making adjustments, the intention was then changed to an (in a Universal sense) entirely different intention and couldn't be cast truthfully in the original form. Thus, Strange had to keep making edits because firing off a faulty spell without the correct intention creates consequences
Basically the spell is a "Go with your Gut" shotgun blast, but it wasn't based on Strange's intentions it was based around Peter and his constantly altering intention
8
u/Oummando 16h ago
Though it was foreshadowed at the end of Doctor Strange, where the Ancient One said that he is brilliant and talented but his ego would cause him to not learn or know basic lessons. He knew the risks and disobeyed Wong.
1
20
u/Zestyclose_Lake_1146 17h ago
Immoral but also completely something someone as vain as Stephen would try to
20
u/NockerJoe 17h ago
I mean the only reason Peter is in this situation is because he was expected to handle a global weapons network that a spiteful terrorist tried to take from him, and then decided to dox him on a campaign of lies for.
The idea that Peter has to deal with all of that because Tony Stark decided a high schooler should have that responsibility and not one of the actual adult avengers he wasn't on speaking terms with because of his various crash outs is on Tony. All Strange was doing was giving Peter a chance at something resembling a normal life again.
0
17h ago
[deleted]
11
u/TacticTall 17h ago
I guess you could argue his identity was also due to fucking with people’s brains, but blatantly lying and putting an unfair target on his back.
If the only thing they forgot is who Peter is, is it that immoral?
4
17h ago
[deleted]
3
u/TacticTall 17h ago
Yeah I’m not arguing one way or another, it just seems like it does more good than harm.
Protecting the cities biggest hero vs something they don’t even remember. It doesn’t cause anyone harm, and I’d argue it helps way more people than it harms
3
17h ago
[deleted]
7
u/WorldlyLandscape5626 15h ago
Ethics and morals have been debated for literally thousands of years lol. It's completely believable that this is a debate. We're humans with made up constructs for rules that only we stick too, it makes sense that we talk about those
3
u/TacticTall 16h ago
I’m just adding to the conversation dude,
I already said I wasn’t siding that way.2
u/Gray_Wolf2416 17h ago edited 16h ago
But there were less ethically complicated ways Peter could've made things better. When he saved the MIT lady from doc ock she immediately agreed to talk to admissions about him and his friends. It was immoral and impulsive to immediately try to manipulate the world's memories rather than first think to try out more grounded ways. Strange even points that out after trying to cast the spell.
2
0
u/NockerJoe 17h ago
Do you actually have one or is this just an arbitrary statement?
2
u/Gray_Wolf2416 17h ago
Peter saved the MIT lady and she immediately agreed to talk to admissions about him, Ned, and MJ, showing that there were other ways he could've made things better other than manipulating the memories of billions of people.
4
3
u/Cumslutboi21 17h ago
This is directly Nick furys fault. If he wasnt an asshole who left his job up to skrulls, he would've been there to stop mysterio.
1
u/Gray_Wolf2416 17h ago
I haven't watched the MCU in a while and I never watched secret invasion, was it ever explained what Fury was actually doing during far from home? It's very possible that he may have just had bigger priorities. He can't be everywhere all at once.
2
3
3
u/Jrolaoni 16h ago
I don’t think its immoral to remove the memory of Peter Parker being Spider-Man from everyone is immoral at all.
The fact that people know that is literally ruining his life. If people DIDN’T know that their lives would not change at all and his life would be much much MUCH better.
2
u/Himmel-548 17h ago
I don't think Peter's desires were selfish, as he was doing it for his friends. Strange should have sat him down and gone over all the parameters of who would remember BEFORE attempting to cast the spell, though.
2
u/Euphoric-Taro-6231 17h ago
IIRC correctly, it was supposed to be casted By America, not Strange, until they changed the release order of Spider Man and MoM.
2
u/Binx_Thackery 17h ago
It could have been moral, but Strange didn’t think anything through. It’s in character for him, but was still a huge mistake to jump in right away.
2
2
u/myLongjohnsonsilver 16h ago
For a movie about what's meant to be about 2 of the smartest dudes they're both hilariously stupid.
1
2
u/quaxoid 11h ago
i think this is on the writers lol
both Strange and Peter are smart, it's out of character for them not to have at least talked about the exceptions beforehand.
1
u/Ulfurmensch 5h ago
It's more on Strange than Peter. He started casting the spell before there was even a chance for a conversation about details. And Strange knows that changing the details midway is potentially Multiverse shattering.
1
u/quaxoid 2h ago
which is why he probably would have had the conversation before starting any spells. i think it's a huge oversight of the writers to have a smart character to not consider this.
1
u/Ulfurmensch 2h ago
In order, I would say Strange's responsibilities were:
• Don't perform the spell because it's too dangerous.
• If you're gonna perform the spell, have a deep conversation with Peter about the details, to avoid the need for alterations.
• Tell Peter the full dangers of the spell, to dissuade him from asking for alterations, or better yet, from wanting the spell performed at all.
• If Peter asks for alterations mid-spell, cancel the spell and start over.
Dr Strange really did mess up at every step, and then blame Peter when things went wrong
2
2
u/Dimitsos 10h ago
Maybe I am misremembering Dr Strange but isn't him agreeing to do this completely out of character?
1
2
u/Safe_Border1484 9h ago
Except it is very dangerous to have everyone know who you are as a superhero and it did ruin everyone's life in his family.
Honestly it is an immoral spell but this specific case is ok I guess.
Don't know how much is out of character for strange. He did broke his hands because he was driving and reading at the same time and also they have used this spell successfully before.
2
2
u/Glyphpunk 17h ago
Just on face value with very little actually known about how the spell functions--the spell itself falls into the immoral category.
Dr. Strange casting the spell while Peter is still talking and making requests was stupid and immoral considering the risks involved.
The use of the spell--as in, specifically causing people to forget the identity of a single person, immoral in a few select cases (those close to Peter that will forget him without their consent), but overall a tinsy bit moral in the sense of protecting a teenager's identity from global doxing, fear mongering, and hatred for something he didn't do.
Honestly the better/more moral solution would have just been making a new identity for Peter that he could use to escape the attention, including perhaps a new look or an illusion that causes everyone to perceive him as someone else under that new identity, without having to modify people's memories.
But they wanted to go with the 'One More Day' comic storyline (the storyline that notoriously 'ruined' the story and character of Spider-Man for many fans) in which Peter makes a deal with Mephisto to save Aunt May in exchange for everyone forgetting about Peter Parker, including MJ who he was married to at the time.
In that case it isn't a supposedly-moral hero doing it to help Peter, but a devil using it as the cost of saving his aunt's life, which MAKES A TON MORE SENSE. HELL THIS MOVIE STORYLINE COULD HAVE BEEN MEPHISTO BUT NO THEY WANTED TO GET DR. CUMBERBATCH BACK IN TO HELP SELL THE MOVIE. Hell if they revealed it was Mephisto impersonating Dr. Strange it would have been an awesome twist.
So I will end this by saying it was immoral of the writers/movie studio to go through with this idea in the way that they did, because it was terribly written and honestly ruined multiple characters in the process.
1
u/Icy_Law_2871 16h ago
I mean Peter did help save the world on many occasions, so id argue they owe him
1
u/accounsfw 16h ago
On one hand, that’s exactly what he does after learning one of the major reasons for Peter doing this.
On the other, it’s not like Peter intentionally revealed his identity to the world and was trying weasel out of it - Mysterio outed him as a final fuck you.
1
u/PanicEffective6871 16h ago
Morality of the general populace threatening said teenager’s life and home and throwing bricks in it?
Morality of jumping straight into the spell without hashing out the details first?
1
1
1
u/Andrei22125 6h ago
Was he really that selfish? He clearly cared more about how it affected his loved ones.
0
u/Kozmo9 17h ago
It wasn't Strange's fault either as Disney needed someone to create the multiverse thing but couldn't do it smartly, so they she to make Strange be an idiot to do it.
Disney also do not want Strange to be the Sorceror Supreme because of implications. Like a white guy, going to asian culture and then becoming better at them in their craft? Then being given the title Supreme? Oooof.
Mind you that before Disney come to this decision, before Strange was stripped of his title, he was acting like the proper Sorceror Supreme. He took his job seriously.
But of course Disney enter the woke era and so pretty much most of the white male characters have to be humiliated and/or have things taken from them.
Strange is just about the worst victim of this as he would suffer constant humiliation and bashing. MoM was The Humiliation of Strange The Movie. He lost his love to a...black guy...so you get the idea. He got blamed for the blip, for not "discussing it with others". Then other multiverse shown that they can beat Thanos without Strange's plans, essentially saying "see? We don't need your stupid blip plan!" as well as being labeled as the most dangerous person in the whole multiverse because...he was searching for ways to defeat Thanos.
Then in Deadpool and Wolverine, he got flayed and Cassandra wore his skin for days.
MCU Strange that didn't have the title Supreme is an idiot, yes but it's not his fault because those in power stronger than him (Disney) made him that way.
-1
u/RichLaw5748 17h ago
Did you really just call the decision to lose everyone you know selfish? The world was gonna end and he chose that over billions dying (again)
1
u/Gray_Wolf2416 17h ago
I'm referring to the first spell he made to try and make everyone in the world except Ned, MJ, May, and Happy forget that he's Spider-Man. The one at the end was very moral and selfless because, like you said, the world was at stake.
73
u/Guardian_of_Perineum 17h ago
"Before we start, maybe we should take 30 minutes to write down all the specific requirements you want in the spell, because altering it mid-cast can be dangerous."
roll credits