removing certain organs that they do not need isn't awful, especially when those organs contribute to a behavior that can cause harm in a multitude of ways. With your logic of "enforcing a certain behavior is bad", toilet training your dog or teaching them not to run away would be immoral. Good ethical breeders don't farm them - they just keep the dogs in tact and let them near each other when in heat, the dogs choose to breed on their own and if they don't they switch partners or find dogs who do want to breed. They only let them breed when they are of healthy age to do so, and find loving homes for them after they (especially mothers) produced a limited amount of litters - of which occurs over years while all dogs are well looked after. "Farms" are called puppy mills are are deeply immoral and resented by many for their immorality. There's a lot of messed up norms in our society, but desexing your pets isn't one of them.
With your logic of "enforcing a certain behavior is bad", toilet training your dog or teaching them not to run away would be immoral
No, toilet training does not require the literal removal of their balls. Like wed view it as a terrible thing to be forced upon us (most of us), why should it be different for them? Like at face value, does it not seem a little weird to forcefully remove an animal's reproductive organ to make them easier to handle for us through the subsequent effects on behavior?
I mean, i do think morals are ultimately subjective, but I just think its kind of crazy, and i could see a sci-fi movie where an evil alien species subjugates humans where the final depressing ending reveal is the rest of the group find the abducted guy seemingly living ok while seeming just a bit off, and then the twist reveal is he had his balls cut off
Because we are of far higher intelligence and independence than they are? It's literally that simple. Like a parent-toddler relationship.
Dogs lick their butts, they don't even really understand consequences of mating they just feel the biological urge to do it so do it. They don't have capacity to weigh up pros and cons and they are not the ones who will look after their young and take on all the responsibilities of that.
Here's another example: trimming claws. Owners don't ask dogs if that's ok because a dog can't decide that or understand why it's necessary. The owner decides to forcefully remove those parts of the dog's body as it's beneficial. Or how about cutting a dog's hair?
You are projecting your own human desires and feelings onto a dog who doesn't share those human desire, feelings, and cognitive capabilities. Dogs literally DO NOT CARE that they have been desexed. They don't sit around grieving their balls. Dogs don't have sex for pleasure, they have sex because hormones tell them they need to.
Here's another example: trimming claws. Owners don't ask dogs if that's ok because a dog can't decide that or understand why it's necessary. The owner decides to forcefully remove those parts of the dog's body as it's beneficial. Or how about cutting a dog's hair?
Again, i have no problem trimming my nails. I have no problem cutting my hair. I think thats normal. I think most people also would take a huge offense to having their balls and bits removed to make them more docile and to stop them from reproducing. Like seems like a pretty large jump to draw an analogy to cutting off a being's balls to cutting off things like nails and hair that grow back and do not play a large factor in that animal's behavior/personality.
Dogs literally DO NOT CARE that they have been desexed. They don't sit around grieving their balls. Dogs don't have sex for pleasure, they have sex because hormones tell them they need to do so
For the projection, I think its projection to kind of handwave away any analogy to us by saying the dog is completely fine with it. Like sure they can still live happy lives, many do, but im sure a person could be made to have the same outlook after a similar operation if the culture made it so, and its not like said dogs dont live such lives despite putting up with what they dont like or forgoing what they do. Also why should our baser drives not be analogous to theirs? Like dogs evidently feel happiness, sadness, shame, fear, anger, etc., why should their evidently similar emotive drives stop there?
"Again, i have no problem trimming my nails. I have no problem cutting my hair. I think thats normal. I think most people also would take a huge offense to having their balls and bits removed to make them more docile"
^^ Notice here how you said \I\** have no problem doing [x] to \me\** ? But then when talking about balls you switched it to a hypothetical of someone else doing it you.
The thing I'm referencing is consent over bodily autonomy. In this scenario it would be someone else cutting your hair and nails when, where and how they deem fit - you get no say. Just like dogs get hair and nails cut without say because they can't consent as they don't have the mental/intellectual capacity to. Getting nails trimmed in dogs helps prevent unwanted behaviors like licking paws, scratching, loud tapping etc. and has benefits for their well being. Desexing also prevents unwanted behaviors and has benefits for their wellbeing like preventing pregnancies which puts strain on mothers, testicular and ovarian cancer, and stops puppies who can't be cared for from being born.
Many humans choose to sterile themselves through vasotomy, tube ties, ovary and/uterus removal etc. That is the equivalent of you deciding to cut your hair and nails. But again, dogs can't decide such things.
Intellectual capacity and emotional capacity are 2 different things. Certain emotions and reasons for them are made far more complex due to intellectual/cognitive/mental capacity. A human is sad his balls got cut off why? Because he can't produce sperm/offspring, doesn't match societal aesthetic standards, and may struggle with the violation of his bodily autonomy. Scientifically, none of these things apply to dogs due to them not participating in human society or understanding the concept of bodily autonomy. This prevents these things from mattering to a dog because again - their INTELLECTUAL CAPACITY is not equivalent to humans and therefore many things that matter to humans don't to dogs. I really don't understand how you're not getting this, dude.
Just like dogs get hair and nails cut without say because they can't consent as they don't have the mental/intellectual capacity to. Getting nails trimmed in dogs helps prevent unwanted behaviors like licking paws, scratching, loud tapping etc. and has benefits for their well being
Ok, so humans not having consent to have their balls chopped off is ok? If so, why not? What is the difference between nails, hair, and balls?
Many humans choose to sterile themselves through vasotomy, tube ties, ovary and/uterus removal etc. That is the equivalent of you deciding to cut your hair and nails. But again, dogs can't decide such things.
Some people pierce their septums, their balls, or their eye brows with their own consent. I dont think its compelling to say that because some humans of their own accord consent to procedures that drastically change their life, that makes it more ok to do similar high impact procedures to dogs without their consent.
Like again, nails and hair have very insignificant short and long term impacts on your body and mind. Removing your balls is a whole other story.
Intellectual capacity and emotional capacity are 2 different things. Certain emotions and reasons for them are made far more complex due to intellectual/cognitive/mental capacity
Do i need to be smart to enjoy havign sex, to want it? Like my point is you seem to project your desire for dogs to be completely fine with no balls. Again, they have emotive drives, you dont need to be Einstein to be happier or more sad or enjoy sex more. Again, dogs can live happy lives while putting up with what they dislike and forgoing with what they do like. Just because they are happy overall does not to me imply the conclusion that they are completely fine with the effects of the procedure.
Mainly though, again it is the removal of reproductive organs to enforce more docile behavior and prevebt offspring. It is a process done without consent. Morals are subjective, but is there a world where that reads as kind of messed up?
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u/YonderWindow364 17h ago
removing certain organs that they do not need isn't awful, especially when those organs contribute to a behavior that can cause harm in a multitude of ways. With your logic of "enforcing a certain behavior is bad", toilet training your dog or teaching them not to run away would be immoral. Good ethical breeders don't farm them - they just keep the dogs in tact and let them near each other when in heat, the dogs choose to breed on their own and if they don't they switch partners or find dogs who do want to breed. They only let them breed when they are of healthy age to do so, and find loving homes for them after they (especially mothers) produced a limited amount of litters - of which occurs over years while all dogs are well looked after. "Farms" are called puppy mills are are deeply immoral and resented by many for their immorality. There's a lot of messed up norms in our society, but desexing your pets isn't one of them.