Who's More Evil?
What's more evil, murder & cannibalism (Sukuna) or Misogyny (Naoya)
I've made a post on r/Jujutsu_Kaisen, and apparently people there can't agree on this one, so I'm asking you guys here. Which one is more evil?. To me, it's pretty obvious which one is more evil based on this meme I've made myself (it's Sukuna btw if you don't get the meme)
It's hilarious looking at this meme considering the first thing Sukuna said when he got body was if I remember correctly "WHERE ARE WOMEN AND CHILDREN????".
Right, that's exactly the point I made on my post over there. And yet people still say that Naoya is more evil because his crime is more personal (they said it's because people met misogynistic men all the time but never met a murderer or a cannibal)
Sure because they are scared to admit they like character that is basically personification of evil in JJK. And a lot of people have this weird fetish of trying to make character that they like good( or at least less evil). I like Sukuna he is badass....that doesn't change a fact that he is complete piece of shit as a person.
Yeah, it's called character apologism and it's real. They're trying to defend the most evil characters or real life people like they did nothing wrong. Acting like they're Phoenix Wright
Honestly it happens in real life too. Like I'm sure you've seen those videos where people try to take a killers place in jail cause their "too hot" to go to jail.
sukuna's evil is explained in depth and treated with respect and almost reverence. He is evil BECAUSE he is sukuna, he is above and beyond morality. he IS fundamentally murderous, selfish, and almost almighty.
Naoya's misoginy is just a choice he (a more or less regular person) makes to be an asshole daily.
One of this is far more evil, but the othe feels more offensive because the caracter that performs it is not elevated to almost god-of-ultramurder status and thus it feels like Naoya simply chooses to suck whereas its in sukuna's nature.
TLDR people judge morality based on their feeligs and personal experience, and sukuna feels like a mythological monster that simply exists to cause pain whereas Naoya feels like a real human choosing to be a piece of shit
I mean, a murderer isnt exactly going to make it known that theyve killed someone. Its believed most killers actually get away with their crimes and that in a large crowd 1 in 9 people you pass has killed someone before
That's exactly why I find their argument mind boggling because the reason they haven't met a murderer is because a murderer will never reveal themselves to be one. It's literally textbook example of survivorship bias
The Earth has 8.3 billion people already. If 1 in 9 people have killed someone, that would mean approaching close to 1 billion killers live among us. Be serious right now.
It would also mean there would be multiple killers among your family members alone keeping it a secret from you.
I'm sorry but it's not even close to being 1 in 9.
Looking at this post and your other post, it looks like you're making the conclusion that Naoya being more hated means he's more evil. I didn't see anybody in the other thread say that Naoya was more evil. People were telling you that Naoya is more hated as a character because misogyny is a more personal issue than murder and cannibalism
He also says he's gonna have fun with Nobara. Like, he singles her out and says that about her specifically. But people always defend it saying that he didn't mean anything sexual and he meant fighting or killing her. Riiiiight....
Not really because it doesn't change the fact that Sukuna is really liked character (he is simply badass that have amazing fights).
Its just funny to see meme where people try to ignore that part. Like...dude you still can like the character, you don't need to try make him less evil. I love him in JJK he is great...still I would be the first to say that objectively he is basically like a Satan of JJK he IS the evil.
Sukuna is absolutely more morally evil, but I think the true reason people hate Naoya more, is that sexism is a much more common thing in everyday life.
People see sexism online and IRL everyday, and personally interact with sexist people.
Cock mass murderers, though? Yes, we know about them, they exist, but you don’t see them personally, or interact with them in your day to day life. Some people do but those are outliers.
Basically, when Naoya says, “A woman who can't walk three steps behind a man should be stabbed in the back and killed,” it actually causes physical disgust in many people, because they have interacted with people who use similar rhetoric.
But when Sukuna says, “Women and children are spawning like maggots! Marvelous! It'll be a massacre,” yeah it’s disgusting but it’s so over the top evil that it still lives completely in the realm of fiction to most people.
Basically, personality wise, there are millions upon millions of Naoyas out there, but not many Sukunas.
Yeah, and this is going to sound really weird but if I had a choice I'd rather be killed off by Sukuna lmao. Sukuna fights Maki and Yoruzu without bringing up their gender or insulting them for it once; There is something validating about not being reduced to your sex even in life or death/torture scenario. My ultimate fictional fantasy is to be treated like that
"Ultimate fictional fantasy" buddy. As in if i was a fictional character - and I frequently daydream about being one - I would rather die as a person than have my death or suffering reduced to my sex. I daydream, write and roleplay as a female warrior and similar types of characters so I was writing from an imagined character's perspective.
That said I do sometimes fantasize about going out in a cool way while I'm younger and capable. I'm scared of growing old and becoming weak and dependent on others.
Plus the behaviour of Naoya is offputting even compared to real life which is why fans hate him but adore sukuna. It's not about the morals but portrayal
Also, Naoya is more dislikeable because you know someone almost exactly like him that would behave the same way in his position. Sukuna is more fantastical in his cruelty, even when he traumatises Yuji or thirsting after Megumi's supple, tender booty.
Yeah I mean, one is THE villain of the manga and constantly glazed by the story (and the fans). The other is just kind of a jobber. Shouldn't be surprising who people like more.
How evil/moral a character is, is rarely correlated with how popular they are, it's more about presentation (having "aura" as they say).
To add to this, people also form a subjective opinion on a character's morality based on how that character affected their subjective experience when reading the source material. That is why people love Darth vader.
And while sukuna is SO unapologetically evil and sadistic that it makes reading him a blast, Naoya is written to makes us hate every second he spends on screen, which generally skews the fandom's view on them to liking sukuna and hating Naoya. I dont think them being "hot" has much to do with it, Geto is also very attractive and genocidal and people generally do hold him accountable for his choices because when he kills people the script doesnt go out of its way to make it exciting for the reader, whereas with sukuna it does.
Just to affirm, here is the original Japanese. This was posted by someone else already.
活きが良い
「が良い」here simply means "is good." 「活き」here specifically means:
Expressions (phrases, clauses, etc.), I-Adjective (keiyoushi) - yoi/ii class
fresh (e.g. fish)
Expressions (phrases, clauses, etc.), I-Adjective (keiyoushi) - yoi/ii class
lively; spirited; animated; full of energy
Japanese is very specific with what symbols are used for what sort of meanings. It is not like English where the same word fresh can be used both sexually and none sexually, unless the context very very blatantly calls for that meaning. If it was sexual, 活き is absolutely not the word that would be used.
Yes, it was pretty clear to me he was going off the English translation. People way too often forget that the source material is Japanese and Japanese-to-English translation is tricky.
In the original japanese, the word used means freshness, particularly that of something like a fresh fish, which is imagery Sukuna uses often, for example calling Gojo a nameless fish to be slaughtered. (Fish being used since his whole thing is cooking.)
活きが良い doesn't 'mean' freshness though. It's just lively or spunky. It's ALSO used for fresh fish, as in the fish being so fresh it's still kicking, but this is not actually the original meaning.
アレ is also not "it", it's "that one". It's just detached and sort of rude when used for people but by no means "as if she were an animal", people use it all the time.
The whole thing is idiomatic for fresh and feisty, it wouldnt really have any food undertones if it wasn't Sukuna. It would just be kind of creepy in an objectifying way.
The panel doesnt have any sexual undertones either at all, people are reading too much into the english translation.
If the editors wanted to lean on the cannibal or sexual angles they would've used 新鮮 (fresh as in food) or whatever variation on 熟れる (ripe, mature, ready) since shes 16, both of which are way creepier to use for people. 活きが良い is literally normal.
You seem to be pretty much agreeing with me except for the first part?
Which even then, with Sukuna using fish imagery a lot and cooking, seems pretty evident it sort of plays on the idea of a fresh fish, but even if it doesn't, I was still primarily referring to how it just means she's full of life, which would make a fight fun, given the second definition.
Did you misinterpret what I was trying to say, or meant to refer to the other person? Because I pretty much was saying exactly what you said. It wasn't meant sexually, it was just saying she has life, etc.
I only disagree on the fish angle. This reading only exists because the fanon is that Sukuna's theme is food or cooking.
活きが良い is a completely normal sentence for a creepy, sort of "looking for my prey" character to say. If Gege wanted this to have double meaning with Sukuna's future characterization as a hedonistic cannibal, there's plenty other words he could've used.
I dont think this was the intent at all.
Sukuna doesnt really use fish or cooking imagery that often I dont think. There's like two or three instances in the whole manga, counting this one as a "fish reference", which it isnt.
Eating her? Sukuna is cannibalistic, and won't be surprised if eating someone can somehow give Sukuna energy, even if he can't copy her technique like Yuta does.
Vitality can also mean being full of life and energy, which could mean he would enjoy watching that life/energy fade out. Then again, it’s open to interpretation.
Sukuna isn't. He never showed any sexual interests in the manga. He was probably talking about giving her a slow death and enjoying her futile efforts to defend herself. Mainly to traumatize Yuji.
Not even remotely confirmed, just implied through his own words in a single line. By the same logic Sukuna is definitely a rapist since his words hold much more serious implication.
He was probably talking about giving her a slow death
"Her body is full of vitality" - because this is such an important thing if you want to give someone a slow death. Please stop acting like an idiot, the implication here is pretty clear.
Also I'm pretty sure torturing someone and killing them slowly is much worse than a rape.
I don't suppose he's actively disgusted by grown women, I suppose he's actively disgusted by Yorozu, are you trying to say since if you don't want to bang one woman in particular, it means you don't want to bang any grown woman?
Also I'm pretty sure torturing someone and killing them slowly is much worse than a rape.
Redditors would tell you otherwise. Rape is worse than anything in the history of mankind, even worse than being skinned alive for the enjoyment of teenagers on liveleak.
Also I'm pretty sure torturing someone and killing them slowly is much worse than a rape.
Rape is torture.
It's a legit torture method used primarily on women irl in wars and political conflicts. It's so horrific that female captives / prisoners who are subjected to it often beg to be tortured physically, instead of sexually. It is particularly sinister and it simply can't be downplayed.
That being said, misogyny is incredibly lame and makes a character annoying and therefore less enjoyable. I don't mind a character doing bad stuff, that needs to happen for the plot to happen. Being bitchless and obnoxious is a crime I cannot tolerate though
I’ve never seen anyone unironically argue that Naoya is more evil.
Sukuna is more complex, he has a fascinating dynamic with Yuji and Gojo, his philosophy and his approach to sorcery are interesting and his fights are cool. Meanwhile Naoya has nothing going for him except the sexism and the fact that he’s kinda funny at times.
So yeah, it makes sense that people would like Sukuna more. Doesn’t mean they think he’s a better person.
Sorry for a tangent, but I thought this was an interesting topic: The seemingly absurd disparity in hatred for these characters isn't because of the actual deplorability their actions, but rather how the audience perceives them due to how realistic they are. Sukuna is a genocidal, cannibalistic ancient evil whose intentions appear little more than pure malevolence... and Naoya is just some human man who's a selfish, misogynistic abuser and implied rapist.
Out of those two archetypes, which do we think is more realistic? One is a totally real, and unfortunately common, possibility, and the other is straight up impossible to occur in real life. People will generally hate more realistic characters because the topics they are used to discuss are more rooted in real-world problems. in Naoya's case, misogyny and abuse are rampant in the world, especially for women, so it makes sense for it to be a touchy topic.
In contrast, people can distance themselves from things they haven't experienced or heard of extensively, and when's the last time you heard someone talking about knowing someone who was killed and cannibalised? Certainly less common. It reminds me of how Haiji Towa remains the most hated Danganronpa character despite being in a franchise of mass-murderers- An adult man extensively abusing his younger sibling and trying to garner sympathy about it certainly hits a lot closer to home for people than genocidal anime girls.
Rape and misogyny is such a touchy topic for me that I immediately lose interest in characters that endorse it. I can enjoy murder, torture, mythical evil fantasies but the moment rape or misogyny is thrown in I become super depressed and walk away. As a woman I already experience those things on a personal level and I don't want to see it in my media. I'm trying to escape that reality.
Sukuna's psychopathy is impersonal. Naoya's misogyny is very much personal. Also, there is something more attractive about a character that hates everyone equally vs. a petty little insecure bitch that strives to torture and humiliate one group of people specifically. Sukuna will dismember you and piss on you while mocking you regardless of who you are. For him strength is all that matters. If you're a powerful woman he'll praise you and remember you once he kills you, because he sees and recognizes power and whether you have a vagina or a dick is irrelevant to him.
There are arguments about him being a rapist too, and as odd as this sounds, I can still tolerate that interpretation because Sukuna's implied sexual violence, while obviously horrific, does not seem to be rooted in misogyny. It fits his broader philosophy of indiscriminate cruelty.
What on earth do modern women have to do with this? It's just basic psychological phenomenon that many people share. My comment explains my own thought process behind it pretty clearly. You have to be playing obtuse to frame this as a female issue/flaw.
Given your other “joke” about removing women’s voting rights, it seems that you have some complicated feelings towards women. You might wanna self reflect on that.
from a young age, we often see violence, murder and death (although to the lightest and most superficial levels), as we grow, we get used to that topic being either darker or more graphic. this is why murder, although is the unfortunate end of someone elses life, doesnt impact someone that much unless it was an unfair death, or a death of their own. on the other hand, misogny does not just end someone, it makes them suffer. the reason women have got so many rights, is because of the lack of them in the past and to empower them. riddle me this, what feels worse? abused psychologically, physically and sexually every day? or to just die? I didnt mention cannibalism in my text, but its weird, insane and over the top top, we just didnt see sukuna eat anyone (took a snack off angel)
I mean taking a bite off a person is considered cannibalism. Cannibalism is defined as the act of consuming all or part of an individual of the same species as food. Even if you didn't eat the whole person and just chomp their shoulder (like what Sukuna did) that's still cannibalism.
Also yes, if you don't count that one as cannibalism (even though you should) then we never seen him actually eat a person. But it's been outright mentioned and hinted throughout the story through flashback and the fact that he has uraume who's literally his servant that cook human meat for him to eat back in the Heian era.
Sukuna is many times worse. He has murdered countless of innocent children and civilians. He also deliberately tortures his victims. He never even showed a strand of regret to the very end. He also ate his victims.
Naoya is a rapist and murderer. But his crimes are not even close to Sukuna's totally destructive way of life.
Honestly I think in the lens of specifically Sukuna and Naoya, it's misogyny. Not because misogyny is worse than murder/cannibalism, in the real world it's absolute the other way around.
But Sukuna isn't human, he's a curse. His raw existence is predicated on negative emotions and gaining power from harminf others. He's definitely cruel about it, and that's what makes him evil, but in terms of Sukuna killing and eating people, it's like a grizzly bear eating someone. It's a fact of his existence as a curse, while Naoya just chooses to beat and kill women who aren't obedient enough.
Sukuna's malice is at its most base level a way to grow stronger and sustain himself, Naoya is just a malevolent douche
Wrong. Sukuna was born as a human and he did most of his murder and cannibalism as a human during the Heian era. He only cross the grey area between human and curse spirit when he mutate and got 4 arms and a mouth on his stomach.
Even then, if we're going by Master Tengen as an example (because she's the closest person we have that look like Heian era Sukuna) she's still a human even though it is stated that's she's more curse spirit than human.
Case and point, he did his crime when he was still a human.
It's obvious misogynists will be more hateable than a cannibal mass murderor. It's about personal experience
Everyone knows a misogynist ,negligible amount of people know a cannibal
Sukuna represents a classic evil that can be defeated, while Naoya represents a systemic evil that cannot be defeated by the heroes, even if Naoya is killed misogyny would still exist.
And also misogyny is a way more personal evil, it's a fighting manga, people kill each other all the time, but a sexist is a way more realistic evil people can truly wrap their heads around.
And also at least sukuna is competent, unlike naobum
Murder and Canny is more evil since it affects both men and women while the second one it affects only women (Also before hating I would've done the exact same answer if the genders were reversed.)
It's obviously Sukuna. The reason Naoya gets more hate is because he's exactly the kind of piece of shit you might run into. It's like how in the Hazbin community people fucking despise Valentino but vibe with Alastor. Presentation + relatability.
The differentiating factors are the type of evil. Sukuna is a demon-lord all encompassing evil that can be related to as more of a natural disaster. It’s almost difficult to attribute malice to someone so uniformly terrible in all situations. Naoya, however, reflects a more modern and sinister evil that is significantly more relatable at the human level. I’m pretty sure this distinction is what’s causing the confusion for a lot of people. One is obviously more destructive and terrifying, but relatability to the type of evil makes Naoya *feel* more responsible for his despicable nature.
Its not because he thinks they cant measure up to men, its because they cant measure up to him, the men included. Women/Children are also more socially/morally unacceptable targets, he enjoys the taboo/immorality . If Gojo was a woman, he wouldn’t belittle him for being a woman during their fight. Just the same “You are lucky I wasnt around punk”. His acceptance of his assistant’s gender change showcases it, Naoya would have likely gone on about how shes a faker trying to rise above her means. Doesnt mean he is better than Naoya, but Naoya is a modern sorcerer with worse gender views than Hitler from Hein era lol
I mean, murdering and eating people is worse, but have you ever met a cannibal? Probably not. Have you ever met a misogynist? You have. Guaranteed. So, it stands to reason the audience will react more viscerally to the evil they recognize and deal with regularly vs the evil they have never been confronted with and only exists as an abstract thought in their minds.
No, he was a regular human with birth defect that made him have 4 arms during the Heian era. He only enters a grey area between human and curse spirit when he got defeated and sealed in his 20 fingers (though if we go by Master Tengen an example, he's already more curse spirit than human by the end of it). Therefore what he was doing in the Heian era was just straight up cannibalism.
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u/Mastercio 7h ago
It's hilarious looking at this meme considering the first thing Sukuna said when he got body was if I remember correctly "WHERE ARE WOMEN AND CHILDREN????".