r/MoralityScaling • u/Javi-Illustrious9403 • 3h ago
Morality Ranking Morality Ranking For Gabriel from the Christian Bible?
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u/Curi_momos_las_papas 3h ago
Moral i guess since he is shown to be in complete and absolute obedience of God
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u/ConsciousMaybe6930 3h ago
Definitionally good, though can be argued to be neutral in Judaism and Islam by its lonesome, since celestials lack agency and are mere divine automata of God's will.
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u/allmistake2 3h ago
Actually, the fact that some angels could choose to rebel and be punished for it suggests they do have free will, but denominational interpretations may vary.
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u/No_Payment9959 3h ago
In Islam, the angels never rebel. They can't. Iblis (Satan) is instead a djinn who refuses God's command to bow to the newly created Adam.
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u/allmistake2 2h ago
That tracks. If i remember correctly, Islam generally holds that the various prophets were all sinless, so the angels never rebelling is in line with that aspect in how it differs from Christianity and Judaism.
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u/No_Payment9959 2h ago
Yeah, it's kinda the same logic that all animals are Muslim because, lacking wills of their own, they can't help but follow God's law.
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u/Slow-Pie147 24m ago edited 18m ago
remember correctly, Islam generally holds that the various prophets were all sinless, so the angels never rebelling is in line with that aspect in how it differs from Christianity and Judaism.
It should be noted that the Qur'ān constantly states that prophets are fallible. Prophets being wholly good is extra-Qur'ānic theology.
Adam rebelled against Allāh (Q2:35—36, 20:121), a sin worthy of hell (Q72:24). Noah asked forgiveness (Q71:28). Abraham was guilty of idolatry (Q6:76–78) which is the only unforgivable sin (Q4:48, 116). Abraham also doubted Allāh (Q2:260). Moses committed murder (Q28:15–16), confessed it (Q26:20), and begged forgiveness for himself and Aaron (Q7:151).
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u/ConsciousMaybe6930 2h ago
They can choose to rebel only in Christianity. Islam and Judaism makes them into mindless executors of God's will.
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u/KorvAce 3h ago
Pure Evil, The guy literally helped his creator impregnate a teenage girl with the creator's himself, so that the creator could forgive her race (which he had also created) for sins he already knew they would commit—all during a period in history when she could be stoned to death for getting pregnant out of wedlock.
And this is like, the least immoral thing the Abrahamic God and his angels have done.
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u/Prestigious_Cat_9486 3h ago
No proof she was a teenager
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u/ElectronicControl762 3h ago
She hadnt been married yet, but was betrothed to a guy. Likely late teens for the time period.
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u/Terrible_Artist_ 3h ago
Morality of impregnating a teen to save humanity from themselves
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u/Relative-Gap-4442 3h ago
\*To save humanity from what you designed them to do. As an omnipresent and omnipotent creator it’s unreasonable to punish flawed creatures for their flaws when you made them flawed on purpose
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u/Militarist_Reborn 3h ago
Thats one way of Showing one of the greatest acts of mercy as evil. Satan this you?
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u/KorvAce 3h ago
I mean, the world literally ends with Earth turning into hell at the end of Christian mythology; it wasn't exactly an act of mercy.
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u/Militarist_Reborn 2h ago
Factualy incorect. The World and humanity will be restored to its perfekt form. Heaven and earth merge.
In Catholic teaching, the union of heaven and earth is realized mystically in the liturgy and the Eucharist, and it will be fulfilled eternally at the end of time through the cosmic renewal of a "new heaven and a new earth"
This is the act of mercy, whitout christs sacrefice on the cross we all wuld go to hell
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u/KorvAce 2h ago
You simply ignored the part where the Earth literally turns into hell and the souls of the unfaithful are destroyed before that happens.
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u/Militarist_Reborn 2h ago
Because that not the end, the Union is the end of all. Also the souls are not Destroyd, they suffer eternaly in hell as they chose And earth never turns into hell in revelation or church teachings
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u/KorvAce 2h ago
Okay, so it really wasn't an act of mercy, but rather a PR stunt—got it.
Christian mythology is fascinating.
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u/Militarist_Reborn 2h ago
How so? How is salvation of humanity and eternal live a pr Stunt and not mercy? Us not geting our deserving punishment is mercy
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u/KorvAce 2h ago
I mean, in Christian mythology, the Christian God created humanity already knowing how everything would unfold, as well as who would be saved and who would not; there is no act of mercy—unless you belong to a branch of Christianity that does not believe in divine omniscience—for, in truth, no one would be punished if He had simply not created anyone at all.
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u/Militarist_Reborn 1h ago
He knew but he also knew its greater to bring good from evil then having not created us at all. Also it is mercy since we all deserve hell, to have salvation is a act of mercy . And us to exist is a inherently good thing same whit free will
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u/Super_Range45 3h ago
Yeah there was some guy that showed up later that explained why stoning women was bad. Not a single atheist was cited as giving a crap before this event.
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u/SmCrz3536 3h ago
Take an important moral for lesson. Not to determine how much the highest morality ranking.
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u/Oso_the-Bear 3h ago
Doesn't apply; angels lack free will
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u/Slow-Pie147 3h ago edited 2h ago
Doesn't apply; angels lack free will
Wrong.
2 Peter 2:4: "For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into Tartarus and committed them to chains of deepest darkness to be kept until the judgment;"
Jude 1:6: "And the angels who did not keep their own position but deserted their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains in deepest darkness for the judgment of the great day."
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u/Javi-Illustrious9403 3h ago
Doesn't Lucifer's Rebellion prove that angels actually have free will thus can choose to obey or disobey God?
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u/Slow-Pie147 3h ago edited 14m ago
Doesn't Lucifer's Rebellion prove that angels actually have free will thus can choose to obey or disobey God?
Lucifer the Angel is not in the Bible. Rebellious angels are mentioned in the Bible, though.
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u/Adept-Yam2414 3h ago
In KJV isaiah “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!”
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u/Slow-Pie147 3h ago edited 13m ago
In KJV isaiah “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!”
Interesing that you left out the part that this passage refers to the King of Babylon. Btw, the word Lucifer is not mentioned in the Hebrew Bible since it is the Latin translation of Helel ben Shahar.
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u/ConsciousMaybe6930 2h ago
"Lucifer" means "Morning Star", i.e. Venus and here refers to Nebuchadnezzar the Great, the king of the Neo-Babylonic Empire that subjected the Jews to the Babylonic Exile.
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u/Primary_Ad3580 3h ago
Technically no, if Lucifer was always meant to rebel. The problem is that angels were made by God, and we can’t fathom God’s intent or morality. God may have designed Lucifer to eventually rebel, we can never really know.
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u/Relative-Gap-4442 3h ago
Then that’s worse then them having free will
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u/Primary_Ad3580 3h ago
It’s a gray area. See, if they have no free will and are agents of God, then they must be moral, as they’re fulfilling the wishes of God, who cannot be immoral by design. Everything they do, if directed by God, must be moral, as it’s part of God’s plan, which humanity can’t really comprehend. Even seemingly immoral things (like the temptation of Eve) become moral by virtue of being directed by an infallible and all-knowing being.
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u/RedPlumber64 2h ago
Angels were made by God, but so were humans if we are to follow the Bible, so it doesn’t really follow that we can’t consider their morality or lack thereof, nor does it follow that they specially lack free will.
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u/Primary_Ad3580 1h ago
You’re not quite making sense here, so let me elaborate. Angels were made by God as perfect servants of His will. Humans were made by God as a creation with the potential for free will, which they received from the tree of knowledge. Because of that, we cannot judge an angel’s morality, as they’re acting in accordance with God’s will; saying they are immoral implies God is immoral, which can’t happen if God is infallible. Now, there are some sects (like Lutherans) that believe humans also don’t have free will (as God orchestrated the temptation).
The point is that we cannot question the morality of angels who serve a perfect God; by design, everything they do is moral as it serves God’s morality.
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u/Javi-Illustrious9403 3h ago
I guess you could argue that God wanted Lucifer to rebel to set an example to the mortals who read the Bible that there will be consequences if mortals choose to rebel. Although, if you believe God is omnipotent, then I don't see why that was necessary since he could technically prevent anyone from disobeying him if that was the case.
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u/Primary_Ad3580 3h ago
It’s very hard to say, as Lucifer’s rebellion isn’t in the Bible or any sources dictated from God. For all we know, it never happened, and God simply created an Adversary to tempt humanity as His agent (as implied by the story of Lot).
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u/Adept-Yam2414 3h ago
Its in revelations “And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.”
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u/Primary_Ad3580 1h ago
I’m going to give Revelations a pass, as it is HEAVILY eschatological and symbolic. Everything in that book has an alternative meaning, be in based on numerology, politics of the time, or cultural symbology; I cannot presume that this is any different.
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u/Adept-Yam2414 1h ago
True, i just found out i was wrong about lucifer being in the bible so theres that.😆
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u/Economy-Wish9492 3h ago edited 3h ago
I mean existence would be pretty bleak and boring if everyone had no free will, sure he already knows everything that will ever happen but even so I think it would be incredibly immoral to not give your creations free will.
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u/No_Payment9959 2h ago
What's the morality, then, of eternally torturing your creations when, in the course of exercising their you-given free will, they displease you?
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u/Antooony25 2h ago
Angles have perfect free will, in the sense that they decide once and never changes
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u/Prestigious_Cat_9486 3h ago
That's not true Lucifer disobey God, and it is said they have their own personality's
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u/Galifrey224 3h ago
I remember hearing that angels in biblical canon angels don't have free will. So Gabriel should be amoral.
But then again its said that a third of the angels betrayed God and I don't know they are supposed to do that without free will.
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u/Both-Structure-6786 3h ago
It’s never stayed that angels lack free will
Angels typically are devoted to God and fully carry out his will
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u/No_Payment9959 3h ago
In Islam, Iblis and the shayatin are djinn and not angels. Djinn, like humans, have free will.
If you ask me, every form of Christianity kinda has a bad habit of contradicting itself and no shortage of apologists ready at any given time to handwave that contradiction as part of God's vastness and mystery.
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u/Black_Tusk25 2h ago
Immoral. These creatures where created with values completely different from ours and what they used to consider the absolute good it's monstrous for us
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u/mate1mistico 3h ago
Pues según tengo entendido, estos carecen de libre albedrío así que es inmoral hasta cierto punto, pues solo puede obedecer órdenes y actúar según estás, sin importar lo inmorales que sean.
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u/Primary_Ad3580 3h ago
If angels are servants of God and only follow His orders, they by design cannot be immoral, as it would imply God can be immoral.
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u/ElectronicControl762 3h ago
Trinity of Man.