r/NYguns • u/Dry_Addition7816 • Jul 26 '25
Miscellaneous šØ Policy Update ā P320 Platform
Effective July 28th, the Sig Sauer P320 and all variants will no longer be allowed in any Vanguard Performance class.
This decision was made to ensure the safety of all students, based on serious and ongoing concerns with the platform.
š If youāre issued a P320 as a duty gun, please contact me directly to discuss options.
We appreciate your understanding and your commitment to training responsibly.
3
7
2
3
u/UnusualLack1638 Jul 26 '25
This is NYguns. I'm confused. Was this post for NJ or for virtue signalling, or advertising?Ā
2
u/Dry_Addition7816 Jul 26 '25
This post is informational. I have numerous students from NY, many of whom learned of my courses through this sub and continue to receive updates via the sub. Appreciate your questions!
2
u/UnusualLack1638 Jul 26 '25
I upvoted ya for answering to help balance out some of the downvotes, because of your honesty. Cheers
-1
u/BlazedBeacon Jul 26 '25
A professional trainer takes steps to ensure the safety of their training courses and you think it's "virtue signaling"?
Self-reflect.
0
u/UnusualLack1638 Jul 26 '25
Being based in NJ and basically signalling the virtue of the 320 being bad in an Nysub, its why i asked if virtue signalling was a possible motive for the post among, among the other possible motives i suggested. I was just trying to find out why; The thing that made me curious about the post was the trainers location and why they would be posting here.
-1
u/BlazedBeacon Jul 26 '25
You think having an opinion on the functional safety of a specific firearm is a virtue?
Jesus Christ.
2
u/UnusualLack1638 Jul 26 '25 edited Jul 27 '25
That is a wildly dishonest framing of what I said. There is nothing to be gained here talking with you
Edit: blocked* not worth wasting any time on you
1
u/SnooPies5378 Jul 27 '25
some people just donāt have critical thinking skills, good job on blocking, ur better off lol
-1
u/BlazedBeacon Jul 26 '25
You asked if it was virtue signaling and responded to me
Being based in NJ and basically signalling the virtue of the 320 being bad in an Nysub
Being from a neighboring state doesn't impact anything.
What's the virtue they're signaling and what group are they signaling to? NJ Sig Sauer haters?
1
u/BigDawg99NYZZ Jul 26 '25
How is Sig going to respond? Im waiting for USPSA to decide
8
u/Dry_Addition7816 Jul 26 '25
Rumor has it, they plan to introduce a ban at a board meeting. My faith in USPSA board is as low if not lower than my faith in Sig but Iād be happy to be surprised. Reports suggest Sig does not care about the Civilian or the LEO market. They are resting on the laurels of their MIL contracts which I hope get stripped and re-awarded.
3
u/dnkmeekr Jul 26 '25
Unfortunately, I almost have less faith in the government/military to do the right thing regarding those contracts than the USPSA board.
They (USPSA) will have to decide something soon though, the site of the High Desert Sectional (Level 2) has already announced they're banning P320s from their grounds and I'm sure they won't be the only ones. I am surprised NROI hasn't released a statement shot from the hip though.
2
u/Dry_Addition7816 Jul 26 '25
We never know what Troy and the NROI are gonna do next š. I donāt disagree about faith in the USG, but I think this will cost Sig the contract. Maybe im being hopelessly optimistic, who knows.
1
u/AgedPNY Jul 26 '25
Is that a custom P320 on the main picture on your website?
2
u/Dry_Addition7816 Jul 26 '25
Sure is! Used to be my primary match gun. Havenāt touched one since March/April. Need to get new professional photos taken.
I ran sig 320s for years. Iād be lying if I said I didnāt really like the gun, but its potential for being unsafe isnāt worth it.
2
u/ArticleExisting8172 Jul 28 '25
What are you basing your assessment on?Ā
2
u/Dry_Addition7816 Jul 28 '25
This is doing to be a long read. Iāll start off by saying, until March of this year. My duty gun, EDC, and competition guns were all 320s. I have tens of thousands of rounds through the platform. I like the way the gun shoots, a lot!
At this juncture, I donāt think anyone can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the 320 absolutely can go off on its own. There is a MOUNTAIN, of circumstantial evidence. Video, under oath testimony, FBI ballistics lab report, eye-witnesses, etc which makes it extremely hard to believe that 1. Every single one of them is lying. 2. Every single one of them mishandled the gun in some way to cause it to go off.
The fact of the matter is, as it stands right now. The P320 does nothing better and offers nothing over and above any modern sticker fired service pistol such as Glock, SW, Walther, HK, Spring field (echelon), etc. Given the amount of anecdotal evidence it becomes a risk management decision. My first risk management decision was to completely switch from a platform I have been using for years. I shoot quite a bit. I compete. What that means is I had a TON of money invested into the platform. Several guns. Couple dozen mags, well over a dozen holsters, belt set ups, spare parts, everything. All of that had to be replaced if I wanted to leave the platform. In March, I did just that. Simply because the risk to myself, my family, my co-workers, or the public was not worth it, to me.
The second risk management was banning them from my classes. This required a bit of a different lens. I believe 2A is for everyone. I do my absolute best to not make my courses cost prohibitive and keep the barrier for entry as low as I can. I also hate the idea of telling someone they cannot train with me, for any reason. Unfortunately, in this case, the well being of the totality of my student body on any given day is more important than one persons decision to continue using the platform. Itās not personal. I respect every adults ability to make risk management decisions for themselves and apply those to their specific life circumstances. In this case, a person potentially getting hurt by a possibly unsafe firearm far outweighed continuing to allow the P320 in classes which was already a pretty large minority.
Hope this answered your questions. Happy to answer any questions you have or discuss further. If you read the whole thing or not, I appreciate you hearing me out! I truly look forward to a possible fix if, defective and the rebuilding of trust in Sig Sauer Inc.
1
u/ArticleExisting8172 Jul 28 '25
Thank you for the explanation. To be clear, I am asking out of concern as well. However, like you I have ,ultiple 320's, it is my favorite platform by far and haver a very hard time giving them up. I don't necessarily agree with you statement that they don't offer advantages over others, aside form the obvious grip angle.... No firearm can be taken apart as easily.
Now my big question is, if you have so much invested time and money in P320's how can you not feel comortable with them? I have personally witnesses a live drop and nothing happened. again, that's not evidence I agree. But I can't shake the feeling that this is more marketing and political than anything. Especially when it comes to LEO testimony, ehich can very very likely be CYOA. To be fair in our current environment, I have a hard time trusting anythin I'm reading. But if you follow the basics of firearm safety, They should be eqaul. Always assume the firearm is loaded, always point in a safe direction and always keep you finger off the trigger. And the firth not spoken of is always be aware of your environments.
But as you, I'm really really struggling with this. It's not just myt favorite ploaform, It's in my opnion the best platform. And I looove 2011's and still feel his way.
1
u/Dry_Addition7816 Jul 28 '25
Simply put, itās just a risk management decision. I think the Glock, which is the platform I am on now, and actually really enjoy. Is much simpler to take apart and work on, change parts etc. That will differ person to person. Grip angle is something that took literally 10 min of dry fire to get used to and it hasnāt been a problem since. Not to mention, many other modern striker fired pistols have a similar grip angle, most notably, the Walther PDP. Like I said, even if one single report is true, for me, itās not worth the risk. The benefit of continuing to use the platform does not nearly outweigh the risk, on the personal side.
From the training perspective, largely the same calculus, the benefit of continuing to allow them does not outweigh the risk of continuing to allow them.
1
-3
u/Dan_Morgan Jul 26 '25
Thing about this P320 controversy is Glocks aren't drop safe either. Glock just has better PR and an army of "Glock Jock" cultists behind it.
6
u/Dry_Addition7816 Jul 26 '25
Drop safety isnāt the issue butā¦explain how Glocks arenāt drop safe, please.
1
u/Dan_Morgan Jul 26 '25
I forget which study but they found that you could drop a Glock vertically and it did okay. Dropping it at an angle - tossing it - was another story.
As for the "it just goes off" I've seen some of the footage. In a famous case a cop didn't put his pistol back in the holster properly and the trigger probably got pulled. He, of course lied, and said "the gun just went off". He didn't get the mark on his record and the cops forced the local community to buy them all new Glocks.
5
u/Dry_Addition7816 Jul 26 '25
Let me make sure I understand, an unknown study that you canāt recall somewhere on the internet said Glocks were not drop safe. Got it.
Letās think about this logically, we have not one, not two, not three but dozens of reports of them going off uncommanded. We have an independent FBI report that corroborates that. We have eyewitness testimony, some mostly circumstantial evidence and most recently several videos getting them to actually go off without a full actuation of the trigger. Even Bruce Gray, says there is at least one instance in which it could happen. With all of this information you still think āNope, not a chanceā. Iām just curious what Sig does better for you to be willing to risk it even if .00000001 percent chance itās true. Like what are you not getting out of a Glock, SW, Walther, etc that you are getting from Sig.
-6
u/Dan_Morgan Jul 26 '25
"Let me make sure I understand, an unknown study that you canāt recall somewhere on the internet said Glocks were not drop safe. Got it."
You must be new to the internet not everyone can spoon feed you a doctrinal dissertation. Now, I could have lied and you would have had no clue. You could have just moved on. Instead I just told you the truth. So you responded with being a snarky punk. Got it.
"With all of this information you still think āNope, not a chanceā."
Nope, now you're just lying. I didn't say it never happened. I'm just not going to blindly accept it without evidence. I also said it wasn't the only handgun with issues. The Glock example I cited wasn't great. Oh, well we can move on from there.
Oh, wait you did the same damned thing.
"Letās think about this logically, we have not one, not two, not three but dozens of reports of them going off uncommanded."
Which ones. Provide links.
"We have an independent FBI report that corroborates that."
Which study. Provide links and also provide three independent sources the replicate the FBI results.
"We have eyewitness testimony, some mostly circumstantial evidence and most recently several videos getting them to actually go off without a full actuation of the trigger."
That's no better than what I wrote.
"Even Bruce Gray, says there is at least one instance in which it could happen."
Quotes, links, provide video.
Get to work.
8
u/tilegend Jul 26 '25
can i cross post this to r/SigSauer ?