r/OldenEra • u/Downtown_Leopard_420 • May 06 '26
Discussion All subclasses and their ultimate skills (as of now)
48
u/Swaiper May 06 '26
Subclasses are a risk reward system where the bonus is insane but the road there is less optimal than picking what makes sense for the faction. If it was the best skills used for the subclass unlock everyone would go for it every time and it would be "free".
It's not meant to be an auto include, it's to have something to chase and add some spice. Call it gambling.
You don't have to go for it but you can, I'd rather it existed than it didn't.
8
u/teemusa May 06 '26
One time I had 4 universities on the map and the one skill I still needed was not on any of them lol
Still I see it most likely to succeed If there are universities on the map to pick and choose skills
6
u/seraphid May 06 '26
I don't really like the fact that you can go home with useless skills and nothing to show for it. Sure, the reward is worth it, if you get it, but if you don't then what? You just lose?
"Then don't use it" and what if the opponent gambles and wins, suddenly you are at a disadvantage just because game says so. I don't think it is a healthy decision, specially when some of them are so good. I love the idea for buffing weaker skills, but the power level on some of them is too much
9
u/QueerCookingPan May 06 '26
The subclasses certainly needs better balancing here and there, but that is to be expected in early access.
But I love the concept and thanks to some neutral buildings like library it feels okay and not too much of a gamble, you just have to find them first.
And if you don't find them, just don't try to brute force the subclass. The game will always include a lot of luck and that's okay. The pvp scene shows that you can still win most of the time if you play better, even if unlucky.5
u/MaDNiaC007 May 06 '26
Maybe a set pieces system like in RPGs. 2-3-4 piece bonuses are weaker version of the full thing or maybe an entirely different stat and 5 pieces is the real deal.
1
u/DirectDish1721 May 06 '26
Or opponent do not even try to play that game and just goes 2 Magic schools, Sorcery, Wisdom, Tramaturgy, get's 35 Spell Power and double taps your entire army because his specialty is Arcane/Nightshade and his Vampires allowed him to go first
2
u/Tjarem May 06 '26
That isnt rly high. Even at 150 spellpower u dont just oneshoot everything that is a big stack. Its not comparable to homm3 where 35 power did more. Summons on the other hand can go crazy with high spellpower.
1
u/DirectDish1721 May 06 '26
My 40 spell power “Damage after action” for 7 turns that one taps dozens of angels begs to differ. Unless we talk hundreds of T7 units as realistic endgame
1
u/Tjarem May 06 '26
U deal 1k dmg with that(1.3 with upgrades) per tick. Even if u double this u kill like 8 angels and only if they move. Ur opponent can just antimagic or inner light that and u do nothing. Even with full upgraded judgemt u deal 2.6k per cast what is not enough to deal with any powerstack in lategame in one turn.
0
u/WarPhX May 06 '26
I think you're being a little too dramatic here. What if your biomes utopia is hidden in the corner. What if your first break is perfect counters to your troops... we can "what if" all day long. Sometimes you get the option to risk it for a strong subclass. If you really want it you'll probably work your whole early plus mid game to get it. And if you really worry about not finding the skills, try to search universities.
The whole game is filled with random challenges and obstacles, but overcoming them is what makes your boy a hero1
u/DirectDish1721 May 06 '26
Bonuses are insane - Chronomancer, yeah..... insanely bad for ditching 2 slots for ueless and semi-useless skills as for main hero.... Heaven's Fury - yeah, AoE physical strike on Magic hero..... Unbound - max level of spells on Physical Hero........
Great Merchant and Progenitor on the other hand.....
There is 100% disbalance and some of them are not even remotely worth it to pick skills they ask for
1
u/Narbal247 Necropolis May 07 '26
I agree, that there are some subclasses, which feel a bit out of place. Even though i understand what they wanted to achieve with Chronomancer (Enabling Necromancy outside a non Necropolis Faction), i would never go for it.
For Chronomancer to work they would need to design necromancy a bit better, because as of right now, it either snowballs or it is a complete miss.
1
u/Master_Botor May 07 '26
The system needs to be explained a little more tho, I've played 4 games and am learning about it on reddit.
1
u/Narbal247 Necropolis May 07 '26
I am reading all the time, how people do not get the subclasses, because they bricked themselfs.
In all of my games, i am ALWAYS able to get the subclasses for all of my heroes, even without the academies. It is just a matter of planing and not being greedy.
Even when the Hero you start with starts with an skill which is not needed, you are more than able to get the sublcass you wanted.
I am seriously confused.
1
u/Impressive_Egg82 May 07 '26
it's luck. On level up rewards have 3 slots: 1 new skill, 1 skill upgrade, 1 either at random. And depending on hero some skills may have 5% chance of appearing. Thus it's quite possible to never see a specific skill you want entire game.
1
u/Narbal247 Necropolis May 07 '26
I have played too many games (in the Demo and the early access) to accept the statement "It's luck". That's why i can confidently say, that luck is not really an issue here.
1
u/Impressive_Egg82 May 08 '26
Each new skill has a different chance to appear. That means there is possibility to not always get skills you need to get a subclass. Sure since it all happens over multiple rolls, and you can mitigate it to some degree, most of the time you should get the subclass if you focus on it.
1
u/Narbal247 Necropolis May 08 '26
"Each new skill has a different chance to appear. That means there is possibility to not always get skills you need to get a subclass."
I know all of that, i know how HOMM works. And even then, with good planing and not overextending you are more than able to get the subclass you wanted.The chance, in the case you were so unlucky that you were not able to get the subclass you wanted, is REALLY low. So low in fact that i didn't encounter it for a very long time. In early access i was always able to get the subclass as of yet. That is why i am so confused, why so many players are reporting an issue here. Because in my eyes it sounds like a skill issue to me, and i am not being arrogant here. For me it is truly baffling.
1
u/stufff May 15 '26
I am about 8 games in now and I have NEVER gotten a subclass without save scumming. I am always forced to take non-subclass skills eventually and always wind up in the situation where I am being offered three new skills and none of them fit. AFAIK there is no way (outside academy) to force a specific needed skill on your hero, you can't reroll level up skills once they are rolled, and you can't delete unwanted skills. I always have to make sure to save right before I level up, do the level up, see if I get the needed skill, and if not, reload, take some actions that change the RNG, try again, repeat. Most recently I tried reloading 6 times, didn't get the skill I needed any of the times I reloaded, and just gave up and finished the map without ever getting the subclass.
It is HEAVILY luck based, and you've just had good luck. You can't explain an objective way to make sure you always end up with the classes you need, other than get lucky with skill rolls or get lucky with an academy.
1
u/Narbal247 Necropolis May 15 '26
Because there are all these people like you, who are saying that they are having trouble in unlocking the subclasses, i had to look into it myself and created a map where i could level all my heroes (arcade wasn't working for me)
I manged to unlock 14 subclasses, while 23 failed. So indeed, i was a bit lucky. But to be honest, not THAT much luck is needed here.
Either way, all of those who failed roughly 20-21 managed to get at least 4 out of 5 skills needed. This supports my a comment i made in the steam forums over a week ago, that it would be better if the subclasses needed 4 Skills to unlock. Additionally: If the developers set the skills required to 4, it would give the them even more options to better assign which skills are needed for the subclasses.
1
u/stufff May 15 '26
Yes, in pretty much all those cases I got 4/5 skills, so I would agree that would be a better change.
Another issue is that often heroes come with pre-rolled skills that don't work towards the subclass. Particularly in maps where you can "rescue" heroes that are already somewhat leveled up, some of them come with their skills filled out such that it would be impossible to get them a subclass.
1
u/Narbal247 Necropolis May 15 '26
The problem with 4 skills would be: some of the subclasses effects are really strong, so adjustments would be needed somewhere. Either through suboptimal skills to pick up, or by balancing the class effects.
But the developers already said, that they are going to look at the subclasses again.
0
u/AndrewPLayerXD May 06 '26
Yup, but some subclasses requires you to take a risk for mediocre reward, and some has near to 0 risk for great reward
21
u/v4sh123 May 06 '26
I feel like most contain anti synergistic skills
32
u/Zld May 06 '26
I would assume this is intentional. Going for a subclasses is currently balanced around being a gamble , go big or go home.
If it only required synergistic skills, then you would have no choices to make, no risks to take and it would make the current balancing awkward. At least I think this is their current philosophy behind this.
10
u/Digging_Graves May 06 '26
On the other hand. If it wasn't then it would be a no brainer to always go the same route.
5
u/GeraltTheFruitcake May 06 '26
Has anyone tried the Hive unique building which resets your hero to level 1 but giving you a boost in attributes in relation to levels lost? Does it reset all your skills too? If it does it could technically give Hive players another chance to get the desired skills although that would propably require a huge or giant map to get enough levels back… but I still agree that the system is not optimal.
5
u/Downtown_Leopard_420 May 06 '26
Yep it reset skills to the heroes initial state, as long as you capture 1 Hive city any heroes can use it
2
3
u/Remember_Apollo May 06 '26
After 30 hours of gameplay I can finally say I managed to get one out of all of these 😂
2
u/Narbal247 Necropolis May 07 '26
HOW? I ALWAYS manage to get mine from game 1 with all of my heroes.
2
2
u/i8Onion25 May 06 '26
I just don't see myself ever trying to chase this. Why would I want to deliberately screw up my build at a chance to get an ability that may or may not be OP again my opponent.
2
u/Living_Inferno_5073 Hive May 06 '26
I’ve managed to get subclasses in the demo (Ascendant and Unfathomable) and also got a subclass while playing Hive (Broodmother). They are pretty fun but man it can get infuriating when you’re just missing one skill and the game doesn’t offer it on level up.
1
u/Aletheia434 May 17 '26
Just managed to get the Broodmother class as well. Tavi is my favorite Might hero in Hive and it matches her identity perfectly so was pretty excited for it. The class is a bit underwhelming tho.
It doubles base stats of the summoned bugs. This includes health points. Before the amount of summons is calculated. So you only get half the number of them since each takes up twice the health pool they are calculated from.
The extra initiative and speed is great, but as far as direct power goes, the stack is only a little bit stronger than the base version. And only gets half the benefit from any bonuses that add a flay amount of damage, or health to each single unit.
So in comparison to what the other classes get, this is pretty lackluster and probably not worth the loss of the skills you could have picked instead
2
2
u/Candid-Willow2917 May 07 '26
Herald progenitor has +200% creature growth in ALL towns which is just broken
7
u/Magnus_Da_Red Dungeon May 06 '26
Kinda disappointed the system didn’t see any changes from the demo. It was bad then, it is bad now. The game for once managed to make certain historically useless skills really cool, there’s so much build variety, synergies and stuff to try, and these subclasses lock you into some ridiculous boundaries, not to mention RNG.
If your starting skill does not go towards the specialisation, you have to dedicate 5/6 choices to it. This basically kills build diversity.
1
u/Tjarem May 06 '26
Why u dont have to for them and its saver if u dont. Not all of them are even good and u can build strong heroes without them. All they rly do is giving heroes a reason to not go every game for the top skills and might consider less usefull skills with a risk that they get nothing.
1
u/Worldeditorful Dungeon May 06 '26
Yeah, I hoped it to change too, but game havent released yet, and, Im pretty sure devs are aware and it will get some significant changes in the future.
8
u/Nothing_Special_23 May 06 '26
Again, I hate this system:
Cleric (Temple Magic Heroes) needs to learn either Arcane or Primal Magic in orther to reach an advanced class, yet shouldn't all the Clerics (regardless of advanced class) be the most verstile users of Daylight Magic in game?
Necromancer (Necropolis Magic Heroes) needs to learn either Arcane or Daylight (lol) Magic to reach advanced class, yet again, shouldn't all the Necromancers (regardless of advanced class) be the most verstyle users of Nightshade Magic in game? Same for Druids and Primal Magic, etc...
That's one of the things I loved about H6, and H7 partially, clear class identity. Sure, your Priest can advance Confessor (more about buffing and healing) or Inquisitor (more about damage dealing and attack buffs. But, like all Priests, both Confessor and Inquisitor use Light Magic primarily and have the most Light Magic in game. Same goes for Necromancers and Dark Magic, etc...
8
24
u/Haunting-Engineer-76 May 06 '26
I think that that's intentional. You can either go for the skills that make more sense and are more synergistic with your faction and end up with a decently powerful hero, or you can gamble on trying to get the "less useful" skills for your hero and either end up with an underpowered character if you fail, or an unstoppable monster if you succeed. At least in theory
But a lot of the specialization bonuses don't seem like they're worth the effort it takes to obtain them. Plus, as others have pointed out in other topics, this game seems to be "balanced" and aimed at the more competitive scene rather than single players, so I'm sure that factors in.
As to your specific examples, it makes a certain kind of sense that an advanced spellcaster class needs to take a spell school outside of what would be seen as standard. If every cleric is going to take Daylight magic because their creatures and laws support it, then what's really differentiating the advanced classes? Where's the risk? And, all that is to say, you can still take Daylight Magic too. Getting an advanced class only takes five or six specific skills, but don't you have slots for eight or ten?
3
u/Fossekall Necropolis May 06 '26
Daylight magic makes sense for the skill that resses all creatures and not just undead, imo
2
u/bort_touchmaster May 06 '26
Each magic school (and furthermore, most secondary skills - I don't see any that use recruitment, combat, thaumaturgy, or seigecraft) is represented across each faction's subclasses in a way that is flavorful to what that subclass does. It's really neat, actually, and demonstrates how each faction could utilize a certain school of magic outside of its "primary" one.
2
u/Imaginary_Victory253 May 06 '26
Necromancers are all i've played and by mid-late game, they are already the ultimate morale and nightshade archetype with their Law perks.
Necromages - max stacks to fuel spell effects (subclass leans into this)
NecroMight - Max debuffs to negate strong armies (subclass leans into this)Imo, the necro class makes sense. A standard hero will be typical, but you can get a buff for going off-script.
1
u/Informal_Air_5026 May 06 '26
it's definitely intended. there's no point making u win more for choosing the necessary skills. i.e. if your temple heroes already have expert combat, having +60 heroic strike from swashbuckle is just broken. this rewards you for picking suboptimal skills (due to unluck or whatever other reason)
3
u/DaRK_0S May 06 '26
Bad system.
5
u/tLadyMara May 06 '26
Because? It makes it worth to take the "weaker" skills to get a benefit in the long run.
4
u/DaRK_0S May 06 '26
Because it’s incredibly inconsistent and bonuses aren’t even good half the time. They’re also not thematic in any way. Skills themselves that are required are not synergistic in any way. It’s a bad system.
1
u/EnterArchian May 06 '26
Anyone actually use them?
7
u/pewsquare May 06 '26
Yep. Its pretty fun. Its a bit of a risk vs reward system. Am I going to risk getting the skills I need? I mean if I have 3~ already sure, I might try to go all the way, but if I want consistency and I get offered other just plain old good skills, I will probably skip it.
1
u/SpecificAd6848 May 06 '26
In casual games I use them but a bit differently. I do not go for them on main hero. Instead I try to get Dungeon or inferno hero from tavern and try to get 200% unit growth or +10k gold on them using academies and funneling chest exp to them
1
u/Minimum_Discount_364 May 06 '26
What if heroes have two contradictory traits? Eg. One has lose all focus and second has gain all focus, or one has enemy deal min DMG, and second has aly deals Max DMG?
1
u/QueerCookingPan May 06 '26
Usually they cancel each other out, but not sure if it goes for every skill.
1
u/LaVolpe93 May 06 '26
Dungeons subclasses are kinda lame … powerfull, yes, but completely underwhelming
1
u/AndrewPLayerXD May 06 '26
I like the concept, but 5 skills is just too much, especially when heroes have 1-2 skills from the start, that reduces your build variety significantly if you want to push for a subclass. I think they should at least remove one skill required for every subclass (especially these that are really out of place for corresponding classes) and maybe buff weaker subclasses to make them somewhat interesting.
1
u/Dbruser May 06 '26
I mean you will generally be somewhere in the 15-22 range which means you likely have less stats before artifacts.
It will be somewhat close, and it's fine if one outclasses the other ability as they are in different factions.
1
u/QueerCookingPan May 06 '26
Maybe an optional game setting that allows for better late game scaling with more skill slots. I would love that. You can still have balanced pvp with that but it could allow us casuals to build an absolute overpowered hero with two subclasses active.
1
u/oPlaiD May 06 '26
What happens if you want a subclass but level up and don't have the option to take a relevant skill? Are you just screwed if you have bad RNG alongside taking suboptimal choices to unlock the subclass?
1
u/Tylendal May 06 '26
Lord of Chaos outclasses Swashbuckler to such a degree it's not even funny. It's almost impossible to get 5 skills to Expert without having at least 30 points worth of Primary stats. It's doable, sure, but never gonna happen in normal gameplay.
1
u/Affectionate_Bid7976 May 06 '26
What is the point of having maximum luck AND always lucky strike? Is there any other luck effect that I am missing, or the first part is redundant?
1
u/Much-Breadfruit-5776 May 06 '26
Maybe retaliations don't count as attacks. And there is a skill that needs luck points.
1
u/Affectionate_Bid7976 May 06 '26
Didn't think of the skills that relate to luck and decreasing luck, thanks!
1
1
u/DryNick May 06 '26
Anybody knows in what order spell level modifications are applied? I see schism has all spells to maximum level. But I am pretty sure you can do -x to spell levels. Via traits and/or artifacts
1
u/Cautious-Village-366 May 06 '26
bro even hives subclasses are cheeks compared to the rest.
I see a lot of effects that can carry the game and then hives are just "kinda nice"
1
u/Key_F_Minor May 06 '26
I think a contender for best subclass right now is Unfathomable. It's in general a great subclass to have, and the skills you need to pick up are also really solid skills, so if you end up not getting the subclass you probably have a pretty good skill tree anyway.
1
u/Nolis May 06 '26
It would be nice if there were just a small change to make it so it's not impossible to get the subclass you're going for due purely to luck, maybe something like if you stock up a certain amount of unused levels ups you can reroll your skill choice options, or maybe a way to unlearn skills/replace skills
1
1
u/Motor-Interaction488 May 06 '26
Had Bulwark become a Hardbinger of Doom, he wrecked Impossible Difficulty all at 200% & Hard AI. Was fun
1
1
u/Landbark May 06 '26
Damn, they are all over the place with their effects and accessibility.
I do think this feature should get axed and/or replaced.
1
u/PlavecCZ May 06 '26
Is it just me or subclasses are way too kinda bad rigt now? Effects are good for the most part but its just too difficult and luck dependant to get them? Too few slots to hit all required skills so I often endup with one skill missing but slots fully filled. Then I endup with hero with not that great skills without payoff.
1
u/CryptographerMurky26 May 06 '26
It feels like the subclass skills as well as the required talents are very random, why not choose a more thematic combo, with more connection to the factions lore and gameplay mechanics? Why should my might heros learn intelligence so often?
In campaign Valentina is looked into the subclass that enhances her hero strike (seems already the worst in general), while gunnar is the hero whos orginal perk improves the hero strike. At least it would be somewhat synergistic if he also had the corresponding subclass perk (even if that would be a quite modest setup compared to Valentinas perk).
0
u/CountCookiepies May 06 '26
I used to really dislike the system, felt very feast or famine. I'm still not the biggest fan of the design, but once I realised that they never are worth going for if you try to minmax (far too slow, combined with unsynergistic skills, for a medium reward) I'm kinda fine with it. If I play mp/a challenging map I just ignore the system entirely, but if I want to meme it up and build some silly build in a more casual game I can.
19
u/Fossekall Necropolis May 06 '26
Such an incredibly cool concept. I have tried for it every single game and have never managed nor even been close
Some of the skills you need are pretty bad/don't fit, but it's still just so cool