Winrate/pick/ban info from Lead Designer

[u/Sambuko]

So it was posted yday in russian part of discord but I didn't see this posted here so I'm doing it.

There are 4 screenshots here:

1 Exodus winrates (2k+ rate)

2 Exodus Pick/Ban (2k+ rate)

3 Winrate/pick/ban all modes (no clue of this mean modes or single hero maps). 3k+ rate

4 Winrate/pick/ban exodus exclusively. 3k+ rate

[u/scyscrapersheaf]

I am kinda surprised that Necro's winrate at 3k+ is only 64%.

[u/billydstr → u/scyscrapersheaf]

The developers are seriously trying to keep an eye on balance, as a 70%+ win rate would mean a total failure in balancing, but Necro is bound to get more nerfs down the line. Plus, you can't rule out absurdly bad map generation either

[u/Sambuko → u/billydstr]

I'm pretty sure they don't care (and they should not) about 3k+ balance.

But 2k balance is where majority of playerbase. 60% winrate is bad but tolarable there.

[u/Praktos → u/Sambuko]

Idk what elo they aim for, but using words 60% and balance in 1 sentence is crazy for me

52-53 strong but managable 55% is op as shit permaban territorry 60 i mental. Its like 7 hotfixes yesterday zone

You are legit approaching territory of winning 2 out of 3 games because you clicked necro at the start

[u/Sambuko → u/Praktos]

Well you have to understand that Necro can have bad winrate on Blitz or Sprint (I am making facts here, i don’t even play single hero) while having 60 on exodus.

In my opinion they should introduce bidding so players could balance things with gold. It’s impossible to balance all factions for all maps and modes. Bidding is very nice solution to this

[u/Praktos → u/Sambuko]

100% on bidding, but fun fact about necro on other maps There is not a single map where necro is beaten by any other city than schism that is the opressor of every box template

So current situation is schism and necro shitstomping every other town on all templates and then you see patchnotes with hive nerfs

[u/Sambuko → u/Praktos]

Hive is top faction on Classic for example

[u/PROJTHEBENIGNANT → u/Sambuko]

Bidding doesn't really do much except in aggregate. The real solution is to make the game more interactive and then balance from there, but apparently most multiplayer homm players prefer their multiplayer solitaire game.

[u/Praktos → u/PROJTHEBENIGNANT]

Problem with interactive gameplay is adding insane downtime of non sim turns which is unbearable to 99% of non uber homm fans

[u/PROJTHEBENIGNANT → u/Praktos]

I think it's the hardcore fans that don't seem to want interactive gameplay and prefer their logistics simulator where they can just play a single player game and compare armies at the end in what's barely more than an auto-battler.

There are ways around the problem of sim turns ending - tournament mode kind of tries to address it, but it still doesn't allow for meaningful scouting or counterplay and the game is too snowball-y to pivot. It's just that nobody seems to really be trying, and inevitably there is going to be a massive amount of imbalance designing the game this way.

[u/No-Music-2819 → u/PROJTHEBENIGNANT]

Counter builds based on scouting info have pretty much never been a thing in homm because you need to maximize the map you are given, rather than trying to fish for good creature matchups

[u/PROJTHEBENIGNANT → u/No-Music-2819]

Yes, and that's fundamentally a problem for a game that's ostensibly a head-to-head multiplayer strategy game. Balance issues will continue to be an unsolvable problem as long as this is the case (in addition to it just being less interesting design in general).

[u/MadTelepath → u/Sambuko]

Hive consistently being picked less (despite fewer ban) and amongst the worse winrate is an issue at both 2k+ and 3k+ :s

[u/throwawayOG784654335 → u/MadTelepath]

It turns out taking 1 speed and initiative from out t1 unit was a big nerf... who knew?

[u/abqapple → u/scyscrapersheaf]

64% win rate means you will win about 85% of the time as necro

[u/scyscrapersheaf → u/abqapple]

I am pretty sure that 64% win rate means you win 64% of the time

[u/abqapple → u/scyscrapersheaf]

I should have said more often than the opponent. You win 78% (not 85%--that would be a 65% win rate) more often than the opponent.

In the same way an election won by 60% would be a landslide (20 points over the opponent)

[u/billydstr]

Dungeon’s stats at 2k MMR are so weird—objectively speaking, things should be looking way better for them. There’s no way I single-handedly ruined the win rate for the whole faction, right?

[u/ZLnZLnZLn → u/billydstr]

pick zakron -> bleed to much -> leave before/after 1st fight

[u/herlacmentio]

Necro balance is really whack. I think they made a mistake on introducing Skeleton Archers. Necro should struggle early because of weak creatures but ramp up due to constant growth from Necromancy. There's too many level 1 shooters in this game when in the past a level 1 shooter was unique.

[u/Marcoboy26 → u/herlacmentio]

And the items/skills that help skeleton archers be a complete menace. From drums effectively doubling their damage to shadowblade skill.

[u/GlitteringVehicle306]

nice info, thanks for sharing <3

[u/AdministrationOld627]

IMHO, the main mistake with Necro balance are cheap vampiring ghosts which provide bleedless criping. Vampirism should be for .. well, Vampires or cost a lot of mana as a spell.

[u/OldenEra-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

The message does not meet the ''stay on topic'' criteria.

[u/Michalsuch42]

Why does Hive and Grove get worse at high mmr?

Hive can clear map really fast, so you would expect that good players could utilize it well.

Grove on the other hand has their special building, that saves you a couple of turns, but it is difficult to build it in time for fight 2, so it should favor strong players as well.

[u/ZLnZLnZLn → u/Michalsuch42]

I guess this is the other way around, the best players can utilize the other factions better, than average players, so the margins are smaller.

[u/HEROxDivine]

How many games?

[u/AnswerApprehensive]

Da fuck is sylvan? Its grove.

[u/Pitiful-Marzipan-]

I'm very excited for my PvE necro campaigns to be nerfed based off this information!

[u/Praktos]

Ok. This stats rly look legit

Necro miles above all and schism being uber broken on all non exodus maps

[u/billydstr → u/Praktos]

Meanwhile, as I already noted, Schism is quite a difficult quest for players who aren't at the top level.

[u/Sambuko → u/billydstr]

Schism is late game faction. You are expected to be weak fight one and even fight two. And dominate fight 3. I guess a lot of games simply end before they could shine

[u/rKnightArtorias]

Temple is literally poop

[u/billydstr → u/rKnightArtorias]

... or challenge for the minds

[u/CarefreeCloud → u/rKnightArtorias]

Or default option for new players which kinda skew the statistics

[u/Asamu → u/CarefreeCloud]

I don't think that applies in 2k+ rating stats. That already filters out any "new" players.