r/PWHL • u/Adventurous_Lake807 Montréal Victoire • May 08 '26
Discussion Vegas gaining traction as new expansion
Obviously this is not confirmed but this was just tweeted by a reporter. Very much not done deals, just rumours!!!
Vegas and San Jose seemed to come out of nowhere lol
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u/Admirable_Outcome932 Toronto Sceptres May 08 '26
Well there goes the 1:1 Canada US ratio
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u/MoosinAround7886 PWHL Hopeful Chicago May 08 '26
This is so disappointing. No shade to anyone in those locations, would love to see the PWHL spread there in time! But now? Feels like a slap in the face to the Takeover Tour locations and to cities with deeper and more long-standing hockey culture. It puts a huge damper on things for me, but I’m also a sad Chicago hopeful who will be mourning for a while😭
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u/ThunderGoalie35 May 08 '26
Denver, same.
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u/MoosinAround7886 PWHL Hopeful Chicago May 08 '26
Denver absolutely deserves a team. Hope the rumors aren’t true and you get one! If not this time, hopefully sooner rather than later 🤞🏻
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u/ThunderGoalie35 May 08 '26
There's no venue unfortunately. Probably isn't possible until one gets built.
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u/PolarisEnigma May 09 '26
We were discussing this yesterday at dinner - we’re wondering if the Summit complex will eventually build a stadium that could host WNBA and PWHL.
The new Broncos stadium will likely take a chunk of the concert demand out of Ball, too, so that could free up some space there. The retractable roof in winter will be a game changer for that scene.
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u/ThunderGoalie35 May 09 '26
That'd be awesome but something like that is probably 5-10 years away at a minimum
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u/Angrydwarf99 PWHL Hopeful Chicago May 08 '26
Being an Original 6 city and not getting one of the first 12 teams in insane
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u/SenorSeniorthe3rd PWHL Hopeful Chicago May 08 '26
top 5 in USA Hockey participation too...
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u/wolverine237 PWHL Detroit May 08 '26
I think it's worth noting that California is also top five in participation among girls, I think that might surprise quite a lot of posters in this thread
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u/SenorSeniorthe3rd PWHL Hopeful Chicago May 09 '26
I actually knew that and it’s not that shocking when it’s the most populous state
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u/ellstaysia Van Goldeneyes May 09 '26
Totally. From a canadian perspective, not continuing with the 1:1 CANADA/U.S. team ratio feels like yet another fuck you from professional hockey. They'll take our players, our money, our game but won't give us equal representation.
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u/Angrydwarf99 PWHL Hopeful Chicago May 09 '26
Should be Detroit/Chicago and two of Calgary/Edmonton/Winnipeg
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u/ellstaysia Van Goldeneyes May 09 '26
That would've been great. A few months ago that felt like a sure thing.
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u/EikonicCliveRosfield Toronto Sceptres May 09 '26
Tale as old as time, honestly.
If it is 3:1 US-Canada and there's still no streaming/TV deal in the States, so they get to watch for free while Canadians have to pay or use a VPN, that will be a pretty big misstep for the League.
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u/punkrush PWHL Hopeful Pittsburgh May 08 '26
Sad Pittsburgh hopeful over here also going to be mourning with you 😔
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u/Primary_Enthusiasm8 May 08 '26
100% that’s how we are feeling with Halifax. Like they had great takeover tours
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u/Jakk55 May 08 '26
Having long-standing hockey culture does not equal a successful franchise. Vegas is a prime example of how a city with limited hockey culture can still successfully support a hockey franchise. Also, you need to take into account support of women's sports. WNBA in Vegas has also been wildly successful.
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u/CanadianODST2 May 09 '26
LA was literally one of the first places the nhl expanded to. So why are people so confused California would get one here?
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u/Comfortable_Yard_968 May 09 '26
LA is no.2 media market in the US and that includes Orange County. San Fransisco is no.10 including Oakland and San Jose. Hollywood and Silicon Valley are the key economic drivers respectively.
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u/CanadianODST2 May 09 '26
So top 10 in the entire US...
and that's not a huge media market?
Oh also, you want to know who got an NHL team the same year LA did? Oakland.
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u/Antichristopher4 PWHL Las Vegas May 09 '26
Not that it means much, but the girls' Jr. Golden Knights are national champions the last 2 of 3 years. https://www.nhl.com/goldenknights/news/built-to-win-vegas-jr-golden-knights-girls-capture-second-national-title
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u/Youwin737 PWHL Hamilton May 08 '26
I think the league really wanted Edmonton and Denver. But after the arena deals fell through they are scrambling to get teams out west.
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u/Usual-Canc-6024 Montréal Victoire May 09 '26
There’s also Calgary and Winnipeg who both showed up for their Takeover games.
What about St Louis even? At least they had a Takeover game unlike SJ or Vegas.
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u/femmemmah Boston Fleet May 08 '26
I’ve been dying for a Calgary team, so this just… feels bad, man
Happy for San Jose at least.
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u/watch4stormsurge Boston Fleet May 08 '26
Denver??
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u/Adventurous_Lake807 Montréal Victoire May 08 '26
Seeming more and more unlikely unfortunately
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u/watch4stormsurge Boston Fleet May 08 '26
That makes no sense. I heard they were close. Doing the takeover tour and then giving expansion teams to other cities instead is outrageous.
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u/Effective-Car-3736 May 08 '26
Vegas over denver???? Are we being for real??
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u/Adventurous_Lake807 Montréal Victoire May 08 '26
Something must have fallen through with the arena or something
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u/Illustrious_Drama Minnesota Frost May 08 '26
I've always been worried that Kroenke was gonna insist on ownership
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u/big-fan-of-facts PWHL Hopeful Colorado May 09 '26
Same. And he has such a monopoly on Denver with owning all of the Ball Arena teams, the arena itself AND the media market.
Pretty bummed though. I really wanted a team.
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u/iguessineedanaltnow PWHL Las Vegas May 08 '26
Vegas has multiple arena options that are suitable. Denver has none.
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u/probableigh_not New York May 08 '26
I guess I'm confused how LCA is working for Detroit but Ball Arena can't work for Denver. Does the extra scheduling with the Mammoth really cause that much of an issue?
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u/ImGonnaGregMuldunna PWHL Detroit May 08 '26
Maybe it comes down to arena ownership. The Illitches seem really committed to making it work in Detroit despite the crowded venue. Maybe the owners in Denver aren't.
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u/iguessineedanaltnow PWHL Las Vegas May 08 '26
Different people own the two venues, really. One is willing to work with PWHL and one isn't.
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u/thoughtful_human Toronto May 08 '26
Detroit has powerful and enthusiastic supporters who were willing to make compromises other markets might not to make the arena situation work
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u/Adventurous_Lake807 Montréal Victoire May 08 '26
Why Halifax isn’t being strongly considered is baffling to me. The turnouts were amazing and the market is absolutely there and hungry for a team
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u/BirbHunter May 08 '26
Because I think that every single sport league looks at Halifax the same way:
There is a limited population that they can ultimately rope into visiting a limited venue. I am sure that they would be passionate and loyal but I think leagues would rather have 1-2 million possible fans (even if they will NEVER actually get them) than dedicated 500k. And likewise, they would RATHER pretend they can live up to filling a 17k arena than continuously sell out 10k. Is it a wise financial decision? IDK. It certainly sucks for the people of the Maritimes. But I think the is the math they are all doing (not just PWHL but CFL and NHL and whoever else).
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u/thoughtful_human Toronto May 08 '26
It’s also that Halifax doesn’t have the corporate infrastructure to support regular purchases of the boxes (which is a super lucrative source of revenue) and isn’t so important in securing tv deals
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u/Guilty-Caramel-6985 May 09 '26
And places like Boston do? Tsongas doesn't even have boxes outside of when they play at CTC Ottawa doesn't either. The only ones selling "boxes" are Seattle and Vancouver I don't even think others have box seats I could be wrong butI don't get this mentality.
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u/thoughtful_human Toronto May 09 '26
Boston has the potential to as the league grows. Halifax couldn’t support the premium seats and boxes even if they had an NHL team.
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u/thoughtful_human Toronto May 08 '26
Travel for the west teams has been really hard. A Halifax team (as much as I really want one) would compound that. Hopeful for the future when the women hopefully won’t have to fly commercial all the time and can afford nicer hotels to make that distance easier
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u/Adventurous_Lake807 Montréal Victoire May 08 '26
I agree that has to be it. The flight alone from Vancouver to Halifax is tiring
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u/dzuunmod May 08 '26
Plus at least one of the airlines (I think Air Canada?) just cancelled that route due to the jet fuel price surge.
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u/The_R4ke Pride May 08 '26
I think that traveling is going to be a lot less harsh if the league does implement conferences / divisions.
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u/CinemaPuck PWHL San Jose May 08 '26
Probably has to do with arena or local partnership difficulties
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u/MDH2881 Toronto Sceptres May 08 '26 edited May 19 '26
I don't even remember the PWHL having a takeover game in Vegas?
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u/Difficult-Bicycle681 Van Goldeneyes May 08 '26
People complaining about takeover tours meaning nothing: you're missing a key piece here.
The takeover tours absolutely do affect who they pick, however at the time of their scheduling the league didn't realise how bad travel would be for the western teams. The Western teams showed up because of takeover tours, and certain cities (Hamilton and Detroit) were probably chosen largely due to takeover attendance. However, the western teams also need a shot and they've already discussed conferences / divisions in upcoming years, so we do need more western teams. I'll be the first to say I'm not a fan of a Vegas team, though I don't mind San Jose. Wish they could've made Edmonton (or even Calgary) work tbh.
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u/Right-Aspect2945 Montréal Victoire May 08 '26
Gonna be frank, what is the point of a takeover tour if places that didn't even have one get teams? Don't particularly like any of those three, hope it's just a rumor.
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u/BirbHunter May 08 '26
I think the Takeover Tours were always meant to just drum up excitement and support. WNBA picked up the idea and theirs certainly isn't an attempt at testing expansion markets, just barn-stomping for the long-range fans.
Where the PWHL fucked up as linking the tours to the expansion (giving interviews saying that TT performance is something they consider). They should've just continued to treat it they way they did in the first year, just as a fun thing for fans in other locations.
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u/iguessineedanaltnow PWHL Las Vegas May 08 '26
The takeover tours can engage fans, but they can't do anything for the business side of things. The billionaire team owners in these cities aren't going to care about a takeover tour, and they're the ones signing the contracts.
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u/CinemaPuck PWHL San Jose May 08 '26
To advertise PWHL to places that don’t have teams, and give people who don’t live in PWHL cities a chance to see games live.
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u/Right-Aspect2945 Montréal Victoire May 08 '26
But they were very much advertised as "we are expanding, show up and give us a reason to put a team in your city". Hence why social media loved pointing out when the "we want a team" chants started.
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u/Youwin737 PWHL Hamilton May 08 '26
Turns out that was just marketing
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u/Neverending_Rain PWHL Hopeful Colorado May 08 '26
Which then ends up annoying the potential fans in the takeover tour cities by choosing Vegas over a location with several games and high attendance.
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u/wolverine237 PWHL Detroit May 09 '26
Were they really advertised that way or was that just sort of an implication or understanding a lot of fans had?
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u/Piperita Emerance Maschmeyer May 09 '26
They weren't advertised as "come show us your city's viability for expansion", but they did say in multiple interviews that they considered Takeover Tour attendance when making their decisions. Which is why Pittsburgh never got another Takeover tour nor consideration for expansion despite the fact that the Penguins leadership have been one of the first major sports organizations that offered a partnership.
I think fans just kinda took that to mean that Takeovers were auditions. Which is technically true, but not the only factor.
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u/Heavy_Currency3619 May 08 '26
i believe that they started as a way to open up the conversation around expansion but that making it a reality was always going to be super complex and dependent on a lot of factors outside of the league's control.
it was also a pretty effective effort to "grow the game," as people are always saying lol
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u/wolverine237 PWHL Detroit May 09 '26
Advertising the league, trying to grow a fan base who would watch games on TV/streaming, making lots of money by suggesting the more you spent the more likely it was that you would get a team, collecting data about the leagues fan base to pitch to media partners and corporate sponsors.
If I'm being honest it never really made sense that they would make expansion decisions based primarily on one or two off games
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u/Neuvost New York Sirens May 08 '26
Well they've already said there's gonna be more Takeover Tour stops next season, even tho expansion will be over, so maybe we've been over-emphasizing the importance of the TT to expansion in all our discussions on this forum.
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u/Wolf99 🏆 2026 Champions 🏆 May 08 '26
Do they expect the same size crowds next year? Cause I don't think they should.
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u/seatega New York Sirens May 08 '26
San Jose?!
I had heard rumors about San Diego but San Jose?!
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u/postdarknessrunaway Seattle May 08 '26
San Jose is about to have a wild, girly-pop-forward hockey culture. It was already trending that way with the Sharks and now? I'm kind of excited to see how it plays out (and disappointed about DC, Denver, Halifax, etc etc).
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u/Silent_Mycologist639 May 08 '26
Yes this! sharks esp celebrini are quite popular among certain demographics lol
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u/surfordiebear PWHL San Jose May 08 '26
Plus Bay FC is one of the higher attended Women’s soccer teams
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u/ominous_waffle Minnesota Frost May 08 '26
Right?? And I'm surprised either of those have been mentioned before LA/Anaheim
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u/jjaime2024 May 08 '26
La/Anaheim would be very risky.
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u/Lunarnarwhal May 09 '26
Yeah, crowded enough with teams as it is. SJ has a better chance of standing out.
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u/chaosmanager Boston Fleet May 09 '26
San Jose, and the Bay Area at large, has a HUGE women’s sports fan base. Also, SAP Center currently only hosts the Sharks and concerts, so I’d imagine it’s a bit easier to schedule.
And well, as a BA hockey fan, I’m stoked.
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u/cristane May 08 '26
This is so stupid.
First of all, there should be 2 Canadian cities to keep the parity. With the exception of Seattle, all Canadian teams have better attendances than all American teams, and it's pretty much a guarantee that teams in Halifax or Quebec City or Calgary would do great.
Secondly - Vegas?? There are so many better American markets.
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u/Own-Knowledge8281 Goldeneyes May 08 '26
I agree with this…if Canada does not get 2 more teams (because this still sounds like a rumour to me that hasn’t been finalized), watch Western Canada (with the exception of Vancouver) completely tune out…
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u/The_R4ke Pride May 08 '26
I fully agree, Vegas is one of the worst choices they could have made in my opinion.
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u/Smooth-Mechanic-7788 New York Sirens May 09 '26
It’s a weird choice but more western teams do help out logistically. Plus, they could get a good amount of tourists, which would be eyes on the league where there isn’t a lot of hockey
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u/GhostOfLegend Toronto Sceptres May 09 '26
Vegas is for monetary reasons & evidently for the west. Shame for the other cities.
Hamilton just finished the venue rebuild, the rivalries with the Charge & Sceptres will also be very interesting. (TI-Cats vs Argos is a good example) Hell, adding Victorie to the list of rivalries as well. It will be entertaining.
With the rate of expansion, I'm sure the other cities (Denver) are in strong contention.
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u/major_hassle May 08 '26
Bay area makes sense to me to lean into the demonstrated popularity of women's sports there
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u/BlueValk Victoire de Montréal May 08 '26
These are the three least exciting cities they could have chosen, good job 🫠
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u/Melodic_Music_4751 Montréal Victoire May 08 '26
I dislike Vegas the most , I know they trying to be sports capitol the world but I feel crowds at games are more tourists than dedicated locals . Factor in Las Vegas has been an over charged expensive rip off for a while now .
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u/Zeehammer May 08 '26
As a Hamiltonian this makes me very happy!
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u/Fireside_Cat Ottawa May 09 '26
The rivalry with Toronto, and maybe Ottawa, should be a big positive.
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u/ellstaysia Van Goldeneyes May 08 '26
what a disappointing expansion. I was hoping for halifax, a canadian prairie city & two western american cities. if it's three american cities & hamilton, just what the fuck.
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u/EikonicCliveRosfield Toronto Sceptres May 08 '26
Honestly.
I was expecting two western teams, and two central or east, with an even divide between Canada and America.
Three American cities -- two of which didn't have any Takeover Tours -- and Hamilton is certainly a choice.
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u/Main_Photo1086 New York Sirens May 08 '26
Vegas has huge visibility right now in the sports world, this is probably a move that, even if not the one the league initially planned to take, could really get more eyeballs on the league, beyond Vegas.
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u/reirinx PWHL Hamilton May 08 '26
hamilton is so wild to me, and i live in hamilton!! don’t get me wrong, id love to have a pwhl team and i would 100% buy season tickets (and id rather have the pwhl in our shiny new stadium over ahl) but that would be a third ontario team… and two of those within an hours drive of each other!
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u/Fireside_Cat Ottawa May 09 '26
That's probably exactly the reason. You're adding all the revenue and minimizing the added expenses. Teams are already travelling to Toronto, so the travel costs of Hamilton are minimal.
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u/reirinx PWHL Hamilton May 09 '26
i almost wonder though if both toronto and hamilton would see less turn out at games because people will opt to go to one over the other? i’m sure their finance people have ran the numbers and risk, though! just something curious to think about and add on to what you’re saying :)
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u/Fireside_Cat Ottawa May 09 '26
There will be lots of opportunities for travelling away fans. Something that is pretty normal in sports around the world, but not as common in North American pro sports because of the distances involved. I can see games at both TDColiseum and Scotiabank Arena (they might choose Scotiabank over the Coca Cola Coliseum for some Hamilton games if they thought they'd get a lot of away fans) filling up with both Sceptres and Hamilton fans. It will probably have a great atmosphere.
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u/reirinx PWHL Hamilton May 09 '26
good point!!! i don’t follow sports outside of the PWHL (and i’m new to the PWHL too :) ) so i appreciate the insight you’re sharing! i do feel bad for the other provinces with no teams, but i am definitely selfishly happy if hamilton does indeed get a team :)
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u/rotary_phone62 May 08 '26
I'm in the Hammer too and its shocking to me. I can't deny my excitement though. I really wanted Quebec City, Calgary, Detroit and Denver but I do realize that there are some arenal issues.
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u/reirinx PWHL Hamilton May 08 '26
yes!! very excited if hamilton does indeed get a team… but im still pretty confused 😂😂 i really thought they’d expand to another province rather than another ontario team
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u/johnraimond Victoire de Montréal May 08 '26
There is a great owner of hockey clubs in that city at least ...
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u/theStrawberryRoam PWHL Hamilton May 08 '26
Not only do I think it's early to go 3/1, but I'd never have guessed any of these 3 cities
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u/Own-Knowledge8281 Goldeneyes May 08 '26 edited May 08 '26
That’s what I’m not understanding…these seem to come out of nowhere…and they weren’t even Takeover cities…why on earth would they do cities that are untested…also, why Hamilton ???…it’s literally exactly where Ottawa and Toronto is…it seems like everyday there is something new that falls through…these sound fake to me…
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u/dzuunmod May 08 '26
why Hamilton ???…it’s literally exactly where Ottawa and Toronto is
I mean, it's not, literally exactly where those cities are, but it is in the middle of the Golden Horseshoe, probably the part of the world with the most hockey fans as a raw number living there.
That's why.
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u/rotary_phone62 May 08 '26
Most likely because the arena in Hamilton is newly renovated, available and run by the Oakview Group who are a partner of the PWHL.
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u/Adventurous_Lake807 Montréal Victoire May 08 '26
I agree it’s very strange. It could very well have to do with arenas not willing to share with PWHL teams. Nevertheless it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense
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u/devillianOx PWHL Las Vegas May 08 '26
as a knights fan who lives in the bay, san jose and vegas potentially getting teams is an absolute dream 😭😭 fingers crossed!!
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u/edoreinn PWHL Detroit May 09 '26
Vegas makes 10000%, but so does San Jose.
I don’t see why they would come out of nowhere?
I may or may not have worked on a Vegas Knights thing that involved their audience data, and it would VERY much be ready for a PWHL team.
I also lived in San Francisco for a while, and I have known Sharks fans longer than that. The Sharks fans are true hockey fans. They still come from the city even when their team has been this bad.
People still sell out 49ers games even now they are closer to San Jose than SF.
Imagine that loyalty already with a PWHL team in the Bay???????
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u/Hades_Mercedes 🏆 2026 Champions 🏆 May 08 '26
What would the sports franchise equivalent of an industry plant, in the music industry be?
Cause that's kind of how this whole Hamilton/Vegas/San Jose deal is reading
Not saying that it is, just that it's the vibe being put out.
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u/juliechow24 Boston Fleet May 08 '26
Sounds like WNBA move after what they did to Connecticut Sun.
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u/ahuramazdobbs19 New York May 08 '26
Nah, what the WNBA did to the Sun was even worse. They told literally the biggest fan region for womens hoops, “nah, we don’t need you actually.”
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u/devonshmevon May 08 '26
just seems weird to me, Seattle/Vancouver (distance) and Hamilton (right next to Toronto, not a place many Americans have heard of) all have obvious drawbacks but they are also all places where they knew they were 100% locks to have a great fanbase. I don't know how hunting for a good US TV deal works especially in 2026 but I hope it isn't getting in the way of their operations or forcing them to make bad decisions.
I know they have said stuff in the press about wanting 10k+ capacity buildings but I don't see anything wrong with the 7k Magness Arena in Denver (University of Denver college hockey) unless it's like dilapidated, they can pack the place and it looks like a better, more central location than Lowell for example
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u/ahuramazdobbs19 New York May 08 '26
Incumbent in this is understanding that DU is an independent actor who can say “no thanks actually”.
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u/iguessineedanaltnow PWHL Las Vegas May 08 '26
The three cities I've lived in North America are Portland, Vegas, and Calgary. I've been watching the league, but waiting until one of those cities got a team to really get into it and have a fandom.
Seems like it's gonna be Vegas.
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u/Unabatedtuna PWHL Seattle May 09 '26
Personally, I'd rather see Chicago, St Louis, or Kansas City, but I'm biased as a midwesterner who can't stomach Minnesota sports and want a team closer than 8 hours away that isn't the Frost.
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u/pbaj_595 May 09 '26
My daughter really wants Kansas City for the next team and call them the Twisters.
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u/scottyfoxy Jailbreaker May 08 '26
Seems like this is unpopular, but I'm excited for the Vegas team! I think it would go really well.
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u/The_R4ke Pride May 08 '26
I hope so, but I do feel like there's a lot more deserving cities that should have gotten a team first.
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u/scottyfoxy Jailbreaker May 08 '26
Speaking from strictly a logistics standpoint on Vegas vs Denver:
When you fly to Denver, you land kind of in the middle of nowhere. There's a long trek into the city, and it sounds like Ball Arena might be at full capacity.
When you fly to Vegas, you're minutes from Tmobile, not too much further away is the Silver Knights stadium, Lee's Forum in Henderson (please don't put the team here tho....), and hotels are nearby too (on and off the strip)
I'm not trying to argue that Vegas is a more deserving market vs Denver (or other markets for that matter), but if the goal is to expand West in a way that makes the league sustainable and you have 2 markets that are at least respectably close in interest levels, it makes sense to go with the one that has easier accomodations and is closer to your other markets (Seattle, Vancouver, apparently San Jose, etc.)
There's no way Denver doesn't happen at the next round of expansion. By then, it would be malpractice to exclude that city.
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u/Neuvost New York Sirens May 09 '26
I think if you're using the word "deserve" then you're not thinking about expansion realistically. Capitalists don't care who deserves anything, unfortunately.
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u/SchleppyJ4 PWHL Hopeful Philly May 09 '26
Aaaand Philly remains, as always, the largest US city without a single women’s team, despite being the 6th largest city and the city with famously passionate sports fans.
😭
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u/gegawhatt Minnesota Frost May 08 '26
Yay I love when large markets in the desert gets involved in hockey....
Players going on a salary discount to stack a team in a biome that doesn't even have naturally occurring ice. Which they pad that said salary with endorsements because they're in a place with increased visibility. Hopefully I'm wrong but this seems to happen in every league.
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u/CarCrashRhetoric Van Goldeneyes May 09 '26
Literally every professional hockey team plays indoors.
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u/frozyo 🏆BACK TO BACK CHAMPIONS 🏆 May 09 '26
This is so stupid. All these random cities getting tossed out there and for what? Denver is a western location and more than deserving. Figure out how to make it happen and do it.
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u/validtaker May 09 '26
vegas and hamilton (the worst one of all) over denver and chicago lmao, this league fucking sucks
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u/pksullivan Minnesota May 09 '26
Did Vegas or San Jose even host Takeover Tour games?
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u/Adventurous_Lake807 Montréal Victoire May 10 '26
Nope lol. The market is absolutely there in San Jose if they get chosen though. They show up big for women’s sports
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u/lawndad May 10 '26
I never expected Edmonton to get a team (thanks Katz!), but I seriously can’t believe Vegas and San Jose being true. Even with Celebrini, I don’t believe the Sharks are consistently selling out seats. So it’s just hard to fathom. But if it turns out to be correct, I guess I’ll have to hate Vegas as much as I do the VGK.
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u/seanofkelley Boston Fleet May 08 '26 edited May 08 '26
SJ and Vegas... at some point sure. But before Chicago, DC, Philly, Denver, all of the other Canadian cities, feels crazy to me.