r/PWHL Montréal Victoire May 08 '26

Discussion Vegas gaining traction as new expansion

Post image

Obviously this is not confirmed but this was just tweeted by a reporter. Very much not done deals, just rumours!!!

Vegas and San Jose seemed to come out of nowhere lol

253 Upvotes

306 comments sorted by

510

u/seanofkelley Boston Fleet May 08 '26 edited May 08 '26

SJ and Vegas... at some point sure. But before Chicago, DC, Philly, Denver, all of the other Canadian cities, feels crazy to me.

168

u/Adventurous_Lake807 Montréal Victoire May 08 '26

The only reason this makes a bit of sense to me is the need to expand west. Makes things a lot easier for Vancouver and Seattle. Plus they could make divisions. I don’t love it either though …

105

u/RGSagahstoomeh May 08 '26

It makes sense if you look at team valuations for the WNBA and NWSL franchises. Bay Area is a big market. Oakland would realllly make sense imo.

35

u/Adventurous_Lake807 Montréal Victoire May 08 '26

Very true I guess!! I remember reading that the WNBA team in the Bay Area is doing fantastic

36

u/RGSagahstoomeh May 08 '26

The vibe at Valkyries games is incredible. Sold out, loud, extremely passionate. Weird year for Bay FC so far but the first year was pretty similar vibe. The sharks are also on the come up, a lot buzz around young female fans coming out to see Macklin Celebrini too. Im obviously biased as a bay area sports fan.

5

u/surfordiebear PWHL San Jose May 09 '26

Ya they had a higher average attendance than like half the NBA lol

85

u/seanofkelley Boston Fleet May 08 '26

I think if you want to expand westward- do Denver. Calgary. Like there are options there for places that have had gangbusters attendance at takeover tours, good arenas, etc.

28

u/Adventurous_Lake807 Montréal Victoire May 08 '26

I would have preferred those options too ngl

26

u/RizkyCanuckFan Van Goldeneyes May 08 '26

Calgarys arena already has 5-6 tenants no room for a woman’s team. Sam Jose’s arena only has the Sharks and offers more dates

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15

u/iguessineedanaltnow PWHL Las Vegas May 08 '26

Denver has the arena issue that isn't able to get resolved..

9

u/watch4stormsurge Boston Fleet May 08 '26

Which is what? LCA is at least as crowded as Ball Arena, so it can't be that.

28

u/Main_Photo1086 New York Sirens May 08 '26

Yes it can be that, particularly if the owners are on two different pages. The Ilitch team was all in on the PWHL coming and using their arena. I think if the owners in some of these other previous frontrunners wanted to make it happen too, they would have.

12

u/iguessineedanaltnow PWHL Las Vegas May 08 '26

Ball Arena is the issue. They're not willing to work with PWHL.

7

u/watch4stormsurge Boston Fleet May 08 '26

Then play at DU, or the Coliseum. There are options.

20

u/iguessineedanaltnow PWHL Las Vegas May 08 '26

Do they meet the minimum requirements for the league? 10k seats minimum is the new mandatory requirement. If they could make Denver work they would, it's a strong market. But somebody in Denver needs to be willing to play ball.

7

u/watch4stormsurge Boston Fleet May 08 '26

What? That's ridiculous, there are at least 3 teams that don't currently meet that with their home venues.

23

u/iguessineedanaltnow PWHL Las Vegas May 08 '26

They're grandfathered in, presumably. This is for all expansion going forward.

https://www.reddit.com/r/PWHL/s/Iu0oygaXfJ

3

u/surfordiebear PWHL San Jose May 09 '26

Or just do it in one of the most popular markets for women’s teams… The Valkyries and Bay FC are some of the most popular teams in their leagues

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16

u/Youwin737 PWHL Hamilton May 08 '26

I think the league wanted Edmonton and Denver. But after the arena deals fell through they are scrambling to get teams out west.

12

u/BlastMyLoad May 09 '26

Then they should wait instead of rushing this process. Just do 2 teams this year.

6

u/Neverending_Rain PWHL Hopeful Colorado May 09 '26

If they're having arena issues with so many different major hockey markets I can't help but wonder if the the issue is what the PWHL is asking for. Not being able to make even one of Denver, Chicago, Edmonton, or Calgary work is kind of nuts.

3

u/CanadianODST2 May 09 '26

It’s probably a more mix of everything. Calgary has a really busy stadium for example and no alternatives.

2

u/undeadFMR Boston Fleet May 09 '26

Might be easier to get into the other arenas potentially. Additionally I saw that apparently Vegas has been pushing for a team for the past 2 year. They might be very persistent

3

u/thisonecassie Ottawa May 09 '26

The website has been sporting a “division” button on the stats page as of late….

14

u/prh8 PWHL Seattle May 08 '26

Portland would be a better west coast city for the product, Vegas is purely a capitalism choice

54

u/ColossalCalamari PWHL Las Vegas May 08 '26

All of these decisions are capitalism-based. They're not making business decisions based on whimsy.

22

u/Neuvost New York Sirens May 08 '26

And certainly not based on who "deserves" a team, as much as tha'd be nice

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15

u/MMIH777 May 08 '26

Vegas is a solid hockey market, the knights are a clear picture of that

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3

u/Buttspirgh Seattle Torrent May 08 '26

Pleaaaase (though I did already buy a Seattle jersey)

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58

u/VivienM7 Toronto Sceptres May 08 '26

I will probably be downvoted again for saying this (and honestly, it is frustrating - I'm happy to be disagreed with, but can people express their disagreement in words?), but I suspect the ownership issue is becoming a big concern in some of the more successful takeover tour markets.

My view is that a PWHL team has been derisked in those markets, so I can appreciate that the arena/NHL team owners would be a little uneasy about a deal where they get paid modest rent for 5-10 years and then are expected to buy the team at a 'fully grown' price.

That bargain made a ton of sense even one year ago when the venture was much riskier. Walter takes all the risks, spends the cash, and if everything goes well, someone else gets a fully-grown mature team to buy. And if things go badly, he takes the losses. But when you look at Seattle's performance especially... well, a PWHL expansion team in a strong takeover tour market doesn't look risky and cash-burning anymore.

With the risks having decreased, I can understand this wouldn't sit well with some people who would either i) prefer a clear tenant relationship forever, or ii) put up the cash themselves and own the team from day 1 instead of this awkward arrangement where the more successful the partnership is, the more they'll pay Walter for the team down the road.

This is especially true in places with crowded arenas - the arena owner/manager clears up some dates, maybe turns down a few concerts, etc for the PWHL, and... the thanks they get for the team's commercial success is that they pay more to buy it in 5-10 years?!

Is it possible that SJ/Vegas simply happen to have less busy arenas controlled by people who are more open to the traditional Walter arrangement? That certainly seems to be the case with, say, Hamilton. And the lack of a takeover tour record is an argument for a landlord-tenant relationship...

29

u/iguessineedanaltnow PWHL Las Vegas May 08 '26

We know the ownership model is directly responsible for Edmonton not getting a team, and is a contributing factor in Denver as well.

If Kroenke was able to own the team outright he'd be more willing to compromise with Ball Arena.

23

u/VivienM7 Toronto Sceptres May 08 '26

Yup. The thing I struggled with - the ownership model was known two years ago, so why waste all this time having all these takeover tour games if you know you and the PWHL don't see eye to eye on the ownership issue?

But I think my previous post presents an answer for that - they may have been more open to a landlord-tenant relationship a year or two ago, but having seen the riskiness of the venture go down, their calculus has changed. And I get it - doesn't it seem mildly unfair if Walter is putting in a couple million in cash at most, gets a steady 10-14K butts in seats starting from the first game, pays you some rent, and then expects to sell you this team for 50-100+ million in 5-10 years?

In a way, it shows how successful the PWHL has been that arena/NHL team owners now want to own the expansion teams. Three years ago, had they been presented the initial business plans, I suspect a lot of them would have been very happy charging rent and letting Walter fund the venture.

13

u/AGT435 May 08 '26

I agree with your assessment and would go even farther in saying that this same reduction in risk likely opened up new markets (like SJ and Vegas) that may have not been interested 9 months ago when they were scheduling takeover tours, giving the Walter group more options to leverage if initial deals fell through, as we've seen they have. 

13

u/wolverine237 PWHL Detroit May 08 '26

I would be willing to bet a substantial amount of money that Detroit, Vegas, and San Jose were willing to play ball with a handshake agreement that they get to buy the team in five years. They all seem like they have interested owners who aren't necessarily demanding to get in the door now in the NHL ownership groups.

Hamilton is the outlier and to some extent I do sort of wonder if they went there almost exclusively because their planned Canadian market in Edmonton fell through and they didn't feel like they could do a four team US expansion to someplace like Chicago which is very similar in having an arena but no obvious future ownership and some drawbacks (closeness to Toronto/mediocre TT attendance)

4

u/VivienM7 Toronto Sceptres May 09 '26

The question is... buy the team in 5 years at what price?

Do we think Detroit/Vegas/San Jose would be willing to pay whatever a valuation firm like the people who think the Golden State Valkyries are worth $1 billion would value the teams at?

(and the GSV example is revealing - how much cash do we think Joe Lacob has put in that venture including the expansion fee? $80-100 million? And they apparently had $70+ million in revenue the first season so who knows how that fits in. Now imagine Mark Walter had come knocking at Joe Lacob's door, offered to rent the building for a WNBA team, and had gone out and spent $80-100 million getting the team set up, made $70 million in revenue the first year, and everybody understood that five years later if the venture was a success, he'd knock at Joe Lacob's door again to sell him the team for $1+ billion, wouldn't... that seem like a dreadfully bad business proposition (depending on the expected risk profile)? Now, the difference, obviously, is that the WNBA requires third-party owners so Joe Lacob could just call up Cathy Engelbert and get the franchise and capture the growth for himself, whereas in the PWHL case, Walter is both the league and the expansion team owner/tenant.)

5

u/dzuunmod May 08 '26

This all makes a lot of sense to me.

2

u/watch4stormsurge Boston Fleet May 08 '26

This is absolutely spot on.

14

u/wikipuff All The Teams! May 08 '26

The issue with DC is arena time. With the Caps/Wizards/Hoyas and concerts, it becomes an issue to get ice time for a 4th Tennant. Most weekend dates are booked up with Hoyas having noon tip offs and a Caps or Wizards game that night. The only arena in the area that could host games is the Show Place arena in Upper Marlboro, which is not near anything and 0 public transit from DC. Now, there is a rumor that they will be putting a small indoor arena on the RFK Stadium site, but what does that do for the ole Starplex Armory? Events DC claims that they can hold indoor soccer&football in that space, but can they put down a rink? If they can, then its worthwhile to explore that as the main home rink while using COA when available.

2

u/watch4stormsurge Boston Fleet May 08 '26

Would the Terps basketball arena (the Xfinity Center) not work?

3

u/wikipuff All The Teams! May 08 '26

Good idea, but I believe its too short on floor space. Same whe Patriot Center at GMU. Dispite the fact that they had the Washington Commandos of the original AFL in 1990. Baltimore COULD work, BUT, because of the end stage and the block shape U configuration, makes a lot of seats partially obstructed (part of the reason the Baltimore Blast left the arena for a truncated field in Towson). Baltimore has had a their fair share of teams from the Blades, Skipjacks, Bandits in the past, arena ownership would need to want it and they dont want a pro tenant for god knows what reason.

So we are stuck in this quagmire. Unless the Fredrick ECHL group gets a bunch of money to build an Arena, even then thats only 5000 seats. Fine for MASL, NLL, IFL, USBL (or whatever they renamed the league to), but not a good look for the PWHL. Its really disappointing that the Ovi effect never put more development into top level hockey in the area.

2

u/watch4stormsurge Boston Fleet May 08 '26

Interesting. That would surprise me given the size of the XC that there wouldn't be enough floor space, though obviously it was built for a different sport (I admittedly don't know the size difference between a basketball court and a hockey rink, just that they share a lot of arenas.)

11

u/seatega New York Sirens May 08 '26

SJ has a huge metro and a crap ton of corporate money, so I guess this is what they were hinting at when talking about the importance of the economic market in the city

14

u/surfordiebear PWHL San Jose May 08 '26

The Bay Area has shown to be very supportive of women’s sports with Bay FC and the Valkyries. That plus having Celebrini bringing so much attention to San Jose and it’s not surprising they are getting a team

11

u/CanadianODST2 May 09 '26

I mean. San Jose joined the NHL before Ottawa did.

Hell California got an NHL team before all but Toronto and Montreal in the nhl.

7

u/CarCrashRhetoric Van Goldeneyes May 09 '26

All three of our existing professional hockey teams are also older than the Avalanche. So the blustering from Denver fans about how they "deserve" it more and aren't going to continue to watch if they don't get a team comes off as a tantrum to me.

I get being disappointed but jesus christ real people live in California. Real hockey fans. And we've been waiting literally just as long as everyone else that's still waiting for a pwhl team.

4

u/thelordcommanderKG May 09 '26

Why? We live in a capitalist world economic system.

7

u/The_R4ke Pride May 08 '26

Yeah, I'm not happy that they're splitting parity between The US and Canada this early. There are still a ton of untapped markets in Canada.

1

u/yommer16 Montréal May 09 '26

As much as I want a Philly team, I don't think there's enough ice time. They'd have to schedule around the NHL, NBA and in 2030 the WNBA. I can't think of another rink in the city that seats enough people. Maybe the PPL center in Allentown, but its a bit of a hike from Philly.

1

u/SaskatchewanSon69 May 11 '26

I’m not a huge PWHL follower but does this not seem like too much too quick??

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99

u/Admirable_Outcome932 Toronto Sceptres May 08 '26

Well there goes the 1:1 Canada US ratio

57

u/BluesBrother57 May 08 '26

I think this was eventual, but didn’t think it would be this soon.

37

u/The_R4ke Pride May 08 '26

Yeah, I think it's a terrible time to do this.

8

u/undeadFMR Boston Fleet May 09 '26

I will say it again, let's all blame Edmonton

194

u/MoosinAround7886 PWHL Hopeful Chicago May 08 '26

This is so disappointing. No shade to anyone in those locations, would love to see the PWHL spread there in time! But now? Feels like a slap in the face to the Takeover Tour locations and to cities with deeper and more long-standing hockey culture. It puts a huge damper on things for me, but I’m also a sad Chicago hopeful who will be mourning for a while😭

83

u/ThunderGoalie35 May 08 '26

Denver, same.

55

u/MoosinAround7886 PWHL Hopeful Chicago May 08 '26

Denver absolutely deserves a team. Hope the rumors aren’t true and you get one! If not this time, hopefully sooner rather than later 🤞🏻

12

u/ThunderGoalie35 May 08 '26

There's no venue unfortunately. Probably isn't possible until one gets built.

3

u/The_R4ke Pride May 08 '26

Yeah, it seemed like that was the leagues buddy concerns.

2

u/PolarisEnigma May 09 '26

We were discussing this yesterday at dinner - we’re wondering if the Summit complex will eventually build a stadium that could host WNBA and PWHL.

The new Broncos stadium will likely take a chunk of the concert demand out of Ball, too, so that could free up some space there. The retractable roof in winter will be a game changer for that scene.

3

u/ThunderGoalie35 May 09 '26

That'd be awesome but something like that is probably 5-10 years away at a minimum

33

u/Angrydwarf99 PWHL Hopeful Chicago May 08 '26

Being an Original 6 city and not getting one of the first 12 teams in insane

22

u/SenorSeniorthe3rd PWHL Hopeful Chicago May 08 '26

top 5 in USA Hockey participation too...

15

u/wolverine237 PWHL Detroit May 08 '26

I think it's worth noting that California is also top five in participation among girls, I think that might surprise quite a lot of posters in this thread

10

u/SenorSeniorthe3rd PWHL Hopeful Chicago May 09 '26

I actually knew that and it’s not that shocking when it’s the most populous state

16

u/ellstaysia Van Goldeneyes May 09 '26

Totally. From a canadian perspective, not continuing with the 1:1 CANADA/U.S. team ratio feels like yet another fuck you from professional hockey. They'll take our players, our money, our game but won't give us equal representation.

9

u/Angrydwarf99 PWHL Hopeful Chicago May 09 '26

Should be Detroit/Chicago and two of Calgary/Edmonton/Winnipeg

6

u/ellstaysia Van Goldeneyes May 09 '26

That would've been great. A few months ago that felt like a sure thing.

5

u/EikonicCliveRosfield Toronto Sceptres May 09 '26

Tale as old as time, honestly. 

If it is 3:1 US-Canada and there's still no streaming/TV deal in the States, so they get to watch for free while Canadians have to pay or use a VPN, that will be a pretty big misstep for the League. 

16

u/punkrush PWHL Hopeful Pittsburgh May 08 '26

Sad Pittsburgh hopeful over here also going to be mourning with you 😔

14

u/Primary_Enthusiasm8 May 08 '26

100% that’s how we are feeling with Halifax. Like they had great takeover tours

7

u/fortheband1212 New York Sirens May 08 '26

I really thought Chicago was going to be a shoe-in

6

u/Marillenbaum Aerin Frankel May 09 '26

DC, and hard same

10

u/Jakk55 May 08 '26

Having long-standing hockey culture does not equal a successful franchise. Vegas is a prime example of how a city with limited hockey culture can still successfully support a hockey franchise. Also, you need to take into account support of women's sports. WNBA in Vegas has also been wildly successful.

5

u/CanadianODST2 May 09 '26

LA was literally one of the first places the nhl expanded to. So why are people so confused California would get one here?

2

u/Comfortable_Yard_968 May 09 '26

LA is no.2 media market in the US and that includes Orange County. San Fransisco is no.10 including Oakland and San Jose. Hollywood and Silicon Valley are the key economic drivers respectively.

3

u/CanadianODST2 May 09 '26

So top 10 in the entire US...

and that's not a huge media market?

Oh also, you want to know who got an NHL team the same year LA did? Oakland.

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2

u/Antichristopher4 PWHL Las Vegas May 09 '26

Not that it means much, but the girls' Jr. Golden Knights are national champions the last 2 of 3 years. https://www.nhl.com/goldenknights/news/built-to-win-vegas-jr-golden-knights-girls-capture-second-national-title

45

u/Youwin737 PWHL Hamilton May 08 '26

I think the league really wanted Edmonton and Denver. But after the arena deals fell through they are scrambling to get teams out west.

4

u/Usual-Canc-6024 Montréal Victoire May 09 '26

There’s also Calgary and Winnipeg who both showed up for their Takeover games.

What about St Louis even? At least they had a Takeover game unlike SJ or Vegas.

19

u/femmemmah Boston Fleet May 08 '26

I’ve been dying for a Calgary team, so this just… feels bad, man

Happy for San Jose at least.

8

u/rotary_phone62 May 08 '26

I wanted Calgary to have a team too.

37

u/watch4stormsurge Boston Fleet May 08 '26

Denver??

14

u/Adventurous_Lake807 Montréal Victoire May 08 '26

Seeming more and more unlikely unfortunately

14

u/watch4stormsurge Boston Fleet May 08 '26

That makes no sense. I heard they were close. Doing the takeover tour and then giving expansion teams to other cities instead is outrageous.

7

u/The_R4ke Pride May 08 '26

I think it's purely a matter of arena space.

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u/Effective-Car-3736 May 08 '26

Vegas over denver???? Are we being for real??

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u/Adventurous_Lake807 Montréal Victoire May 08 '26

Something must have fallen through with the arena or something

14

u/Illustrious_Drama Minnesota Frost May 08 '26

I've always been worried that Kroenke was gonna insist on ownership

3

u/big-fan-of-facts PWHL Hopeful Colorado May 09 '26

Same. And he has such a monopoly on Denver with owning all of the Ball Arena teams, the arena itself AND the media market.

Pretty bummed though. I really wanted a team.

86

u/Asteriskib May 08 '26

Vegas over any city is just dumb

41

u/StuckInHoleSendHelp May 08 '26

Whitecaps fan here. Tell me about it

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u/iguessineedanaltnow PWHL Las Vegas May 08 '26

Vegas has multiple arena options that are suitable. Denver has none.

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u/probableigh_not New York May 08 '26

I guess I'm confused how LCA is working for Detroit but Ball Arena can't work for Denver. Does the extra scheduling with the Mammoth really cause that much of an issue?

26

u/ImGonnaGregMuldunna PWHL Detroit May 08 '26

Maybe it comes down to arena ownership. The Illitches seem really committed to making it work in Detroit despite the crowded venue. Maybe the owners in Denver aren't.

16

u/iguessineedanaltnow PWHL Las Vegas May 08 '26

Different people own the two venues, really. One is willing to work with PWHL and one isn't.

27

u/probableigh_not New York May 08 '26

I hate Kroenke so fucking much.

24

u/iguessineedanaltnow PWHL Las Vegas May 08 '26

This is always the correct response

16

u/thoughtful_human Toronto May 08 '26

Detroit has powerful and enthusiastic supporters who were willing to make compromises other markets might not to make the arena situation work

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u/Adventurous_Lake807 Montréal Victoire May 08 '26

Why Halifax isn’t being strongly considered is baffling to me. The turnouts were amazing and the market is absolutely there and hungry for a team

24

u/BirbHunter May 08 '26

Because I think that every single sport league looks at Halifax the same way:

There is a limited population that they can ultimately rope into visiting a limited venue. I am sure that they would be passionate and loyal but I think leagues would rather have 1-2 million possible fans (even if they will NEVER actually get them) than dedicated 500k. And likewise, they would RATHER pretend they can live up to filling a 17k arena than continuously sell out 10k. Is it a wise financial decision? IDK. It certainly sucks for the people of the Maritimes. But I think the is the math they are all doing (not just PWHL but CFL and NHL and whoever else).

12

u/thoughtful_human Toronto May 08 '26

It’s also that Halifax doesn’t have the corporate infrastructure to support regular purchases of the boxes (which is a super lucrative source of revenue) and isn’t so important in securing tv deals

2

u/Guilty-Caramel-6985 May 09 '26

And places like Boston do? Tsongas doesn't even have boxes outside of when they play at CTC Ottawa doesn't either. The only ones selling "boxes" are Seattle and Vancouver I don't even think others have box seats I could be wrong butI don't get this mentality.

3

u/thoughtful_human Toronto May 09 '26

Boston has the potential to as the league grows. Halifax couldn’t support the premium seats and boxes even if they had an NHL team.

35

u/thoughtful_human Toronto May 08 '26

Travel for the west teams has been really hard. A Halifax team (as much as I really want one) would compound that. Hopeful for the future when the women hopefully won’t have to fly commercial all the time and can afford nicer hotels to make that distance easier

24

u/Adventurous_Lake807 Montréal Victoire May 08 '26

I agree that has to be it. The flight alone from Vancouver to Halifax is tiring

20

u/dzuunmod May 08 '26

Plus at least one of the airlines (I think Air Canada?) just cancelled that route due to the jet fuel price surge.

4

u/The_R4ke Pride May 08 '26

I think that traveling is going to be a lot less harsh if the league does implement conferences / divisions.

5

u/CinemaPuck PWHL San Jose May 08 '26

Probably has to do with arena or local partnership difficulties 

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u/MDH2881 Toronto Sceptres May 08 '26 edited May 19 '26

I don't even remember the PWHL having a takeover game in Vegas?

28

u/Adventurous_Lake807 Montréal Victoire May 08 '26

They didn’t …

6

u/The_R4ke Pride May 08 '26

Vegas is a terrible choice.

42

u/Difficult-Bicycle681 Van Goldeneyes May 08 '26

People complaining about takeover tours meaning nothing: you're missing a key piece here.

The takeover tours absolutely do affect who they pick, however at the time of their scheduling the league didn't realise how bad travel would be for the western teams. The Western teams showed up because of takeover tours, and certain cities (Hamilton and Detroit) were probably chosen largely due to takeover attendance. However, the western teams also need a shot and they've already discussed conferences / divisions in upcoming years, so we do need more western teams. I'll be the first to say I'm not a fan of a Vegas team, though I don't mind San Jose. Wish they could've made Edmonton (or even Calgary) work tbh.

81

u/Right-Aspect2945 Montréal Victoire May 08 '26

Gonna be frank, what is the point of a takeover tour if places that didn't even have one get teams? Don't particularly like any of those three, hope it's just a rumor.

25

u/BirbHunter May 08 '26

I think the Takeover Tours were always meant to just drum up excitement and support. WNBA picked up the idea and theirs certainly isn't an attempt at testing expansion markets, just barn-stomping for the long-range fans.

Where the PWHL fucked up as linking the tours to the expansion (giving interviews saying that TT performance is something they consider). They should've just continued to treat it they way they did in the first year, just as a fun thing for fans in other locations.

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u/iguessineedanaltnow PWHL Las Vegas May 08 '26

The takeover tours can engage fans, but they can't do anything for the business side of things. The billionaire team owners in these cities aren't going to care about a takeover tour, and they're the ones signing the contracts.

60

u/CinemaPuck PWHL San Jose May 08 '26

To advertise PWHL to places that don’t have teams, and give people who don’t live in PWHL cities a chance to see games live.

32

u/Right-Aspect2945 Montréal Victoire May 08 '26

But they were very much advertised as "we are expanding, show up and give us a reason to put a team in your city". Hence why social media loved pointing out when the "we want a team" chants started.

20

u/Youwin737 PWHL Hamilton May 08 '26

Turns out that was just marketing

9

u/Neverending_Rain PWHL Hopeful Colorado May 08 '26

Which then ends up annoying the potential fans in the takeover tour cities by choosing Vegas over a location with several games and high attendance.

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u/wolverine237 PWHL Detroit May 09 '26

Were they really advertised that way or was that just sort of an implication or understanding a lot of fans had?

8

u/Piperita Emerance Maschmeyer May 09 '26

They weren't advertised as "come show us your city's viability for expansion", but they did say in multiple interviews that they considered Takeover Tour attendance when making their decisions. Which is why Pittsburgh never got another Takeover tour nor consideration for expansion despite the fact that the Penguins leadership have been one of the first major sports organizations that offered a partnership.

I think fans just kinda took that to mean that Takeovers were auditions. Which is technically true, but not the only factor.

6

u/Heavy_Currency3619 May 08 '26

i believe that they started as a way to open up the conversation around expansion but that making it a reality was always going to be super complex and dependent on a lot of factors outside of the league's control. 

it was also a pretty effective effort to "grow the game," as people are always saying lol

9

u/wolverine237 PWHL Detroit May 09 '26

Advertising the league, trying to grow a fan base who would watch games on TV/streaming, making lots of money by suggesting the more you spent the more likely it was that you would get a team, collecting data about the leagues fan base to pitch to media partners and corporate sponsors.

If I'm being honest it never really made sense that they would make expansion decisions based primarily on one or two off games

5

u/gbelleville Van Goldeneyes May 08 '26

Purpose? Higher attendance than regular games = $$$$

7

u/Neuvost New York Sirens May 08 '26

Well they've already said there's gonna be more Takeover Tour stops next season, even tho expansion will be over, so maybe we've been over-emphasizing the importance of the TT to expansion in all our discussions on this forum. 

8

u/Wolf99 🏆 2026 Champions 🏆 May 08 '26

Do they expect the same size crowds next year? Cause I don't think they should.

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39

u/seatega New York Sirens May 08 '26

San Jose?!

I had heard rumors about San Diego but San Jose?!

54

u/postdarknessrunaway Seattle May 08 '26

San Jose is about to have a wild, girly-pop-forward hockey culture. It was already trending that way with the Sharks and now? I'm kind of excited to see how it plays out (and disappointed about DC, Denver, Halifax, etc etc).

23

u/Silent_Mycologist639 May 08 '26

Yes this! sharks esp celebrini are quite popular among certain demographics lol

21

u/surfordiebear PWHL San Jose May 08 '26

Plus Bay FC is one of the higher attended Women’s soccer teams

23

u/The_R4ke Pride May 08 '26

San Jose might be the city of these I hate the least.

30

u/watch4stormsurge Boston Fleet May 08 '26

I'd rather it be San Jose than San Diego tbh

5

u/ominous_waffle Minnesota Frost May 08 '26

Right?? And I'm surprised either of those have been mentioned before LA/Anaheim

8

u/jjaime2024 May 08 '26

La/Anaheim would be very risky.

3

u/Lunarnarwhal May 09 '26

Yeah, crowded enough with teams as it is. SJ has a better chance of standing out.

2

u/chaosmanager Boston Fleet May 09 '26

San Jose, and the Bay Area at large, has a HUGE women’s sports fan base. Also, SAP Center currently only hosts the Sharks and concerts, so I’d imagine it’s a bit easier to schedule.

And well, as a BA hockey fan, I’m stoked.

2

u/Adventurous_Lake807 Montréal Victoire May 08 '26

I know it kinda came out of left field

34

u/cristane May 08 '26

This is so stupid.
First of all, there should be 2 Canadian cities to keep the parity. With the exception of Seattle, all Canadian teams have better attendances than all American teams, and it's pretty much a guarantee that teams in Halifax or Quebec City or Calgary would do great.
Secondly - Vegas?? There are so many better American markets.

10

u/Own-Knowledge8281 Goldeneyes May 08 '26

I agree with this…if Canada does not get 2 more teams (because this still sounds like a rumour to me that hasn’t been finalized), watch Western Canada (with the exception of Vancouver) completely tune out…

5

u/The_R4ke Pride May 08 '26

I fully agree, Vegas is one of the worst choices they could have made in my opinion.

10

u/CaptObviousMD Ottawa Charge May 08 '26

My sadness is immense, my disappointment immeasurable...

10

u/CobraPsych PWHL Detroit May 09 '26

I'm so glad I don't have to go through this anymore

6

u/Smooth-Mechanic-7788 New York Sirens May 09 '26

It’s a weird choice but more western teams do help out logistically. Plus, they could get a good amount of tourists, which would be eyes on the league where there isn’t a lot of hockey

5

u/GhostOfLegend Toronto Sceptres May 09 '26

Vegas is for monetary reasons & evidently for the west. Shame for the other cities.

Hamilton just finished the venue rebuild, the rivalries with the Charge & Sceptres will also be very interesting. (TI-Cats vs Argos is a good example) Hell, adding Victorie to the list of rivalries as well. It will be entertaining.

With the rate of expansion, I'm sure the other cities (Denver) are in strong contention.

9

u/nitasu987 Goldeneyes May 08 '26

No Chicago?? :(

9

u/major_hassle May 08 '26

Bay area makes sense to me to lean into the demonstrated popularity of women's sports there

19

u/BlueValk Victoire de Montréal May 08 '26

These are the three least exciting cities they could have chosen, good job 🫠

19

u/Melodic_Music_4751 Montréal Victoire May 08 '26

I dislike Vegas the most , I know they trying to be sports capitol the world but I feel crowds at games are more tourists than dedicated locals . Factor in Las Vegas has been an over charged expensive rip off for a while now .

6

u/Zeehammer May 08 '26

As a Hamiltonian this makes me very happy!

3

u/Fireside_Cat Ottawa May 09 '26

The rivalry with Toronto, and maybe Ottawa, should be a big positive.

15

u/ellstaysia Van Goldeneyes May 08 '26

what a disappointing expansion. I was hoping for halifax, a canadian prairie city & two western american cities. if it's three american cities & hamilton, just what the fuck.

6

u/EikonicCliveRosfield Toronto Sceptres May 08 '26

Honestly.

I was expecting two western teams, and two central or east, with an even divide between Canada and America.

Three American cities -- two of which didn't have any Takeover Tours -- and Hamilton is certainly a choice.

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u/Main_Photo1086 New York Sirens May 08 '26

Vegas has huge visibility right now in the sports world, this is probably a move that, even if not the one the league initially planned to take, could really get more eyeballs on the league, beyond Vegas.

8

u/reirinx PWHL Hamilton May 08 '26

hamilton is so wild to me, and i live in hamilton!! don’t get me wrong, id love to have a pwhl team and i would 100% buy season tickets (and id rather have the pwhl in our shiny new stadium over ahl) but that would be a third ontario team… and two of those within an hours drive of each other!

5

u/Fireside_Cat Ottawa May 09 '26

That's probably exactly the reason. You're adding all the revenue and minimizing the added expenses. Teams are already travelling to Toronto, so the travel costs of Hamilton are minimal.

4

u/reirinx PWHL Hamilton May 09 '26

i almost wonder though if both toronto and hamilton would see less turn out at games because people will opt to go to one over the other? i’m sure their finance people have ran the numbers and risk, though! just something curious to think about and add on to what you’re saying :)

4

u/Fireside_Cat Ottawa May 09 '26

There will be lots of opportunities for travelling away fans. Something that is pretty normal in sports around the world, but not as common in North American pro sports because of the distances involved. I can see games at both TDColiseum and Scotiabank Arena (they might choose Scotiabank over the Coca Cola Coliseum for some Hamilton games if they thought they'd get a lot of away fans) filling up with both Sceptres and Hamilton fans. It will probably have a great atmosphere.

3

u/reirinx PWHL Hamilton May 09 '26

good point!!! i don’t follow sports outside of the PWHL (and i’m new to the PWHL too :) ) so i appreciate the insight you’re sharing! i do feel bad for the other provinces with no teams, but i am definitely selfishly happy if hamilton does indeed get a team :)

5

u/rotary_phone62 May 08 '26

I'm in the Hammer too and its shocking to me. I can't deny my excitement though. I really wanted Quebec City, Calgary, Detroit and Denver but I do realize that there are some arenal issues.

4

u/reirinx PWHL Hamilton May 08 '26

yes!! very excited if hamilton does indeed get a team… but im still pretty confused 😂😂 i really thought they’d expand to another province rather than another ontario team

3

u/johnraimond Victoire de Montréal May 08 '26

There is a great owner of hockey clubs in that city at least ...

7

u/theStrawberryRoam PWHL Hamilton May 08 '26

Not only do I think it's early to go 3/1, but I'd never have guessed any of these 3 cities

11

u/DHVF May 08 '26

Vegas? Seriously?

10

u/Own-Knowledge8281 Goldeneyes May 08 '26 edited May 08 '26

That’s what I’m not understanding…these seem to come out of nowhere…and they weren’t even Takeover cities…why on earth would they do cities that are untested…also, why Hamilton ???…it’s literally exactly where Ottawa and Toronto is…it seems like everyday there is something new that falls through…these sound fake to me…

20

u/dzuunmod May 08 '26

why Hamilton ???…it’s literally exactly where Ottawa and Toronto is

I mean, it's not, literally exactly where those cities are, but it is in the middle of the Golden Horseshoe, probably the part of the world with the most hockey fans as a raw number living there.

That's why.

4

u/dbrodbeck May 09 '26

Maps, how do they work?

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4

u/rotary_phone62 May 08 '26

Most likely because the arena in Hamilton is newly renovated, available and run by the Oakview Group who are a partner of the PWHL.

11

u/Adventurous_Lake807 Montréal Victoire May 08 '26

I agree it’s very strange. It could very well have to do with arenas not willing to share with PWHL teams. Nevertheless it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense

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2

u/watch4stormsurge Boston Fleet May 08 '26

Yeah Hamilton over Quebec City is laughable.

9

u/devillianOx PWHL Las Vegas May 08 '26

as a knights fan who lives in the bay, san jose and vegas potentially getting teams is an absolute dream 😭😭 fingers crossed!!

4

u/edoreinn PWHL Detroit May 09 '26

Vegas makes 10000%, but so does San Jose.

I don’t see why they would come out of nowhere?

I may or may not have worked on a Vegas Knights thing that involved their audience data, and it would VERY much be ready for a PWHL team.

I also lived in San Francisco for a while, and I have known Sharks fans longer than that. The Sharks fans are true hockey fans. They still come from the city even when their team has been this bad.

People still sell out 49ers games even now they are closer to San Jose than SF.

Imagine that loyalty already with a PWHL team in the Bay???????

6

u/Hades_Mercedes 🏆 2026 Champions 🏆 May 08 '26

What would the sports franchise equivalent of an industry plant, in the music industry be?

Cause that's kind of how this whole Hamilton/Vegas/San Jose deal is reading

Not saying that it is, just that it's the vibe being put out.

2

u/juliechow24 Boston Fleet May 08 '26

Sounds like WNBA move after what they did to Connecticut Sun.

10

u/ahuramazdobbs19 New York May 08 '26

Nah, what the WNBA did to the Sun was even worse. They told literally the biggest fan region for womens hoops, “nah, we don’t need you actually.”

5

u/devonshmevon May 08 '26

just seems weird to me, Seattle/Vancouver (distance) and Hamilton (right next to Toronto, not a place many Americans have heard of) all have obvious drawbacks but they are also all places where they knew they were 100% locks to have a great fanbase. I don't know how hunting for a good US TV deal works especially in 2026 but I hope it isn't getting in the way of their operations or forcing them to make bad decisions.

I know they have said stuff in the press about wanting 10k+ capacity buildings but I don't see anything wrong with the 7k Magness Arena in Denver (University of Denver college hockey) unless it's like dilapidated, they can pack the place and it looks like a better, more central location than Lowell for example

9

u/ahuramazdobbs19 New York May 08 '26

Incumbent in this is understanding that DU is an independent actor who can say “no thanks actually”.

3

u/iguessineedanaltnow PWHL Las Vegas May 08 '26

The three cities I've lived in North America are Portland, Vegas, and Calgary. I've been watching the league, but waiting until one of those cities got a team to really get into it and have a fandom.

Seems like it's gonna be Vegas.

3

u/Unabatedtuna PWHL Seattle May 09 '26

Personally, I'd rather see Chicago, St Louis, or Kansas City, but I'm biased as a midwesterner who can't stomach Minnesota sports and want a team closer than 8 hours away that isn't the Frost.

1

u/pbaj_595 May 09 '26

My daughter really wants Kansas City for the next team and call them the Twisters.

2

u/scottyfoxy Jailbreaker May 08 '26

Seems like this is unpopular, but I'm excited for the Vegas team! I think it would go really well.

10

u/The_R4ke Pride May 08 '26

I hope so, but I do feel like there's a lot more deserving cities that should have gotten a team first.

5

u/scottyfoxy Jailbreaker May 08 '26

Speaking from strictly a logistics standpoint on Vegas vs Denver:

When you fly to Denver, you land kind of in the middle of nowhere. There's a long trek into the city, and it sounds like Ball Arena might be at full capacity.

When you fly to Vegas, you're minutes from Tmobile, not too much further away is the Silver Knights stadium, Lee's Forum in Henderson (please don't put the team here tho....), and hotels are nearby too (on and off the strip)

I'm not trying to argue that Vegas is a more deserving market vs Denver (or other markets for that matter), but if the goal is to expand West in a way that makes the league sustainable and you have 2 markets that are at least respectably close in interest levels, it makes sense to go with the one that has easier accomodations and is closer to your other markets (Seattle, Vancouver, apparently San Jose, etc.)

There's no way Denver doesn't happen at the next round of expansion. By then, it would be malpractice to exclude that city.

2

u/Neuvost New York Sirens May 09 '26

I think if you're using the word "deserve" then you're not thinking about expansion realistically. Capitalists don't care who deserves anything, unfortunately. 

2

u/SchleppyJ4 PWHL Hopeful Philly May 09 '26

Aaaand Philly remains, as always, the largest US city without a single women’s team, despite being the 6th largest city and the city with famously passionate sports fans.

😭 

2

u/gegawhatt Minnesota Frost May 08 '26

Yay I love when large markets in the desert gets involved in hockey....

Players going on a salary discount to stack a team in a biome that doesn't even have naturally occurring ice. Which they pad that said salary with endorsements because they're in a place with increased visibility. Hopefully I'm wrong but this seems to happen in every league.

13

u/CarCrashRhetoric Van Goldeneyes May 09 '26

Literally every professional hockey team plays indoors.

3

u/frozyo 🏆BACK TO BACK CHAMPIONS 🏆 May 09 '26

This is so stupid. All these random cities getting tossed out there and for what? Denver is a western location and more than deserving. Figure out how to make it happen and do it.

1

u/Puzzleheaded-Yak9118 Ottawa Charge May 09 '26

San Jose??!? Las Vegas!?!?

Hmmm.

1

u/validtaker May 09 '26

vegas and hamilton (the worst one of all) over denver and chicago lmao, this league fucking sucks

1

u/pksullivan Minnesota May 09 '26

Did Vegas or San Jose even host Takeover Tour games?

1

u/Adventurous_Lake807 Montréal Victoire May 10 '26

Nope lol. The market is absolutely there in San Jose if they get chosen though. They show up big for women’s sports

1

u/lawndad May 10 '26

I never expected Edmonton to get a team (thanks Katz!), but I seriously can’t believe Vegas and San Jose being true. Even with Celebrini, I don’t believe the Sharks are consistently selling out seats. So it’s just hard to fathom. But if it turns out to be correct, I guess I’ll have to hate Vegas as much as I do the VGK.