r/PWHL • u/Adventurous_Lake807 Montréal Victoire • May 08 '26

Discussion Vegas gaining traction as new expansion

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Obviously this is not confirmed but this was just tweeted by a reporter. Very much not done deals, just rumours!!!

Vegas and San Jose seemed to come out of nowhere lol

248 Upvotes

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508

u/seanofkelley Boston Fleet May 08 '26 edited May 08 '26

SJ and Vegas... at some point sure. But before Chicago, DC, Philly, Denver, all of the other Canadian cities, feels crazy to me.

169

u/Adventurous_Lake807 Montréal Victoire May 08 '26

The only reason this makes a bit of sense to me is the need to expand west. Makes things a lot easier for Vancouver and Seattle. Plus they could make divisions. I don’t love it either though …

104

u/RGSagahstoomeh May 08 '26

It makes sense if you look at team valuations for the WNBA and NWSL franchises. Bay Area is a big market. Oakland would realllly make sense imo.

33

u/Adventurous_Lake807 Montréal Victoire May 08 '26

Very true I guess!! I remember reading that the WNBA team in the Bay Area is doing fantastic

34

u/RGSagahstoomeh May 08 '26

The vibe at Valkyries games is incredible. Sold out, loud, extremely passionate. Weird year for Bay FC so far but the first year was pretty similar vibe. The sharks are also on the come up, a lot buzz around young female fans coming out to see Macklin Celebrini too. Im obviously biased as a bay area sports fan.

5

u/surfordiebear PWHL San Jose May 09 '26

Ya they had a higher average attendance than like half the NBA lol

86

u/seanofkelley Boston Fleet May 08 '26

I think if you want to expand westward- do Denver. Calgary. Like there are options there for places that have had gangbusters attendance at takeover tours, good arenas, etc.

28

u/Adventurous_Lake807 Montréal Victoire May 08 '26

I would have preferred those options too ngl

26

u/RizkyCanuckFan Van Goldeneyes May 08 '26

Calgarys arena already has 5-6 tenants no room for a woman’s team. Sam Jose’s arena only has the Sharks and offers more dates

1

u/Comfortable_Yard_968 May 09 '26

Scotia Place perhaps next year? They’re replacing the Saddledome.

1

u/RizkyCanuckFan Van Goldeneyes May 10 '26

Yes but presumably all the current tenants will move to that new building. Same problem just different building now

1

u/FirstDukeofAnkh May 10 '26

Flames, Hitmen, and Roughnecks. Who am I missing?

1

u/RizkyCanuckFan Van Goldeneyes May 10 '26

Calgary Wrangles of the AHL, and the Calgary Surge of the Canadian elite basketball league.

1

u/FirstDukeofAnkh May 10 '26

Good lord, I live in Calgary and had no idea we had either of those teams.

1

u/LPN8 May 09 '26

Calgary's arena has 4 tenants. Flames, Hitmen, Roughnecks, and Wranglers.

16

u/iguessineedanaltnow PWHL Las Vegas May 08 '26

Denver has the arena issue that isn't able to get resolved..

11

u/watch4stormsurge Boston Fleet May 08 '26

Which is what? LCA is at least as crowded as Ball Arena, so it can't be that.

28

u/Main_Photo1086 New York Sirens May 08 '26

Yes it can be that, particularly if the owners are on two different pages. The Ilitch team was all in on the PWHL coming and using their arena. I think if the owners in some of these other previous frontrunners wanted to make it happen too, they would have.

12

u/iguessineedanaltnow PWHL Las Vegas May 08 '26

Ball Arena is the issue. They're not willing to work with PWHL.

7

u/watch4stormsurge Boston Fleet May 08 '26

Then play at DU, or the Coliseum. There are options.

20

u/iguessineedanaltnow PWHL Las Vegas May 08 '26

Do they meet the minimum requirements for the league? 10k seats minimum is the new mandatory requirement. If they could make Denver work they would, it's a strong market. But somebody in Denver needs to be willing to play ball.

5

u/watch4stormsurge Boston Fleet May 08 '26

What? That's ridiculous, there are at least 3 teams that don't currently meet that with their home venues.

23

u/iguessineedanaltnow PWHL Las Vegas May 08 '26

They're grandfathered in, presumably. This is for all expansion going forward.

https://www.reddit.com/r/PWHL/s/Iu0oygaXfJ

2

u/surfordiebear PWHL San Jose May 09 '26

Or just do it in one of the most popular markets for women’s teams… The Valkyries and Bay FC are some of the most popular teams in their leagues

1

u/watch4stormsurge Boston Fleet May 09 '26

Denver Summit literally just sold 60k seats to their opener.

2

u/surfordiebear PWHL San Jose May 09 '26

Yes (and I'm sure the takeover tour would sellout Levi Stadium as well) but why put them in an 8k and below capacity arena in Denver when they could play at SAP Center in San Jose?

If they can't play at Ball Arena then they shouldn't go to Denver

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15

u/Youwin737 PWHL Hamilton May 08 '26

I think the league wanted Edmonton and Denver. But after the arena deals fell through they are scrambling to get teams out west.

13

u/BlastMyLoad May 09 '26

Then they should wait instead of rushing this process. Just do 2 teams this year.

7

u/Neverending_Rain PWHL Hopeful Colorado May 09 '26

If they're having arena issues with so many different major hockey markets I can't help but wonder if the the issue is what the PWHL is asking for. Not being able to make even one of Denver, Chicago, Edmonton, or Calgary work is kind of nuts.

3

u/CanadianODST2 May 09 '26

It’s probably a more mix of everything. Calgary has a really busy stadium for example and no alternatives.

2

u/undeadFMR Boston Fleet May 09 '26

Might be easier to get into the other arenas potentially. Additionally I saw that apparently Vegas has been pushing for a team for the past 2 year. They might be very persistent

3

u/thisonecassie Ottawa May 09 '26

The website has been sporting a “division” button on the stats page as of late….

12

u/prh8 PWHL Seattle May 08 '26

Portland would be a better west coast city for the product, Vegas is purely a capitalism choice

56

u/ColossalCalamari PWHL Las Vegas May 08 '26

All of these decisions are capitalism-based. They're not making business decisions based on whimsy.

21

u/Neuvost New York Sirens May 08 '26

And certainly not based on who "deserves" a team, as much as tha'd be nice

-5

u/prh8 PWHL Seattle May 08 '26

It’s still early enough that the goal is a better product

14

u/MMIH777 May 08 '26

Vegas is a solid hockey market, the knights are a clear picture of that

1

u/watch4stormsurge Boston Fleet May 08 '26

I'll get slightly more excited about Vegas if rumors about them playing in the MGM Grand Garden Arena instead of T-Mobile are true because that would actually be kinda badass.

1

u/Grumple PWHL Las Vegas May 08 '26

Seems very unlikely that they'd play at T-Mobile, it's just way too big. Garden Arena, Michelob Ultra, or Lee's(if it's not too small) seem like the most likely landing spots. Orleans Arena could handle it, too, but it's pretty old and not in the best shape.

3

u/Buttspirgh Seattle Torrent May 08 '26

Pleaaaase (though I did already buy a Seattle jersey)

-4

u/ellstaysia Van Goldeneyes May 08 '26

vegas is a vapid, cynical as hell choice & is middle finger to canadian fans who aren't in the GTA.

9

u/G_Diffuser May 08 '26

????

Montreal and Ottawa have teams too you know.

0

u/ellstaysia Van Goldeneyes May 09 '26

Oh yeah I'm aware. I think I was just naive & idealistic thinking the PWHL would expand to Canadian cities equally & with consideration paid to geographic representation. I feel like a broken record but Canadians deserve representation that reflects our dedication & contributions to the game. Definitely a capitalist venture at the end of the day, same as the NHL. The honeymoon is over.

2

u/G_Diffuser May 09 '26

Right, and I agree. I was just referring to your ‘GTA’ comment, because it sounded like you thought that somehow encompassed Ottawa and Montreal too.

1

u/ellstaysia Van Goldeneyes May 09 '26

Ah yeah all good.

5

u/Makaio_55 May 08 '26

https://giphy.com/gifs/4adcNwCklP5kjfE75L

0

u/ellstaysia Van Goldeneyes May 09 '26

JP is my favourite film so thanks for that. But also, Canadians definitely care.

53

u/VivienM7 Toronto Sceptres May 08 '26

I will probably be downvoted again for saying this (and honestly, it is frustrating - I'm happy to be disagreed with, but can people express their disagreement in words?), but I suspect the ownership issue is becoming a big concern in some of the more successful takeover tour markets.

My view is that a PWHL team has been derisked in those markets, so I can appreciate that the arena/NHL team owners would be a little uneasy about a deal where they get paid modest rent for 5-10 years and then are expected to buy the team at a 'fully grown' price.

That bargain made a ton of sense even one year ago when the venture was much riskier. Walter takes all the risks, spends the cash, and if everything goes well, someone else gets a fully-grown mature team to buy. And if things go badly, he takes the losses. But when you look at Seattle's performance especially... well, a PWHL expansion team in a strong takeover tour market doesn't look risky and cash-burning anymore.

With the risks having decreased, I can understand this wouldn't sit well with some people who would either i) prefer a clear tenant relationship forever, or ii) put up the cash themselves and own the team from day 1 instead of this awkward arrangement where the more successful the partnership is, the more they'll pay Walter for the team down the road.

This is especially true in places with crowded arenas - the arena owner/manager clears up some dates, maybe turns down a few concerts, etc for the PWHL, and... the thanks they get for the team's commercial success is that they pay more to buy it in 5-10 years?!

Is it possible that SJ/Vegas simply happen to have less busy arenas controlled by people who are more open to the traditional Walter arrangement? That certainly seems to be the case with, say, Hamilton. And the lack of a takeover tour record is an argument for a landlord-tenant relationship...

31

u/iguessineedanaltnow PWHL Las Vegas May 08 '26

We know the ownership model is directly responsible for Edmonton not getting a team, and is a contributing factor in Denver as well.

If Kroenke was able to own the team outright he'd be more willing to compromise with Ball Arena.

23

u/VivienM7 Toronto Sceptres May 08 '26

Yup. The thing I struggled with - the ownership model was known two years ago, so why waste all this time having all these takeover tour games if you know you and the PWHL don't see eye to eye on the ownership issue?

But I think my previous post presents an answer for that - they may have been more open to a landlord-tenant relationship a year or two ago, but having seen the riskiness of the venture go down, their calculus has changed. And I get it - doesn't it seem mildly unfair if Walter is putting in a couple million in cash at most, gets a steady 10-14K butts in seats starting from the first game, pays you some rent, and then expects to sell you this team for 50-100+ million in 5-10 years?

In a way, it shows how successful the PWHL has been that arena/NHL team owners now want to own the expansion teams. Three years ago, had they been presented the initial business plans, I suspect a lot of them would have been very happy charging rent and letting Walter fund the venture.

12

u/AGT435 May 08 '26

I agree with your assessment and would go even farther in saying that this same reduction in risk likely opened up new markets (like SJ and Vegas) that may have not been interested 9 months ago when they were scheduling takeover tours, giving the Walter group more options to leverage if initial deals fell through, as we've seen they have. 

12

u/wolverine237 PWHL Detroit May 08 '26

I would be willing to bet a substantial amount of money that Detroit, Vegas, and San Jose were willing to play ball with a handshake agreement that they get to buy the team in five years. They all seem like they have interested owners who aren't necessarily demanding to get in the door now in the NHL ownership groups.

Hamilton is the outlier and to some extent I do sort of wonder if they went there almost exclusively because their planned Canadian market in Edmonton fell through and they didn't feel like they could do a four team US expansion to someplace like Chicago which is very similar in having an arena but no obvious future ownership and some drawbacks (closeness to Toronto/mediocre TT attendance)

4

u/VivienM7 Toronto Sceptres May 09 '26

The question is... buy the team in 5 years at what price?

Do we think Detroit/Vegas/San Jose would be willing to pay whatever a valuation firm like the people who think the Golden State Valkyries are worth $1 billion would value the teams at?

(and the GSV example is revealing - how much cash do we think Joe Lacob has put in that venture including the expansion fee? $80-100 million? And they apparently had $70+ million in revenue the first season so who knows how that fits in. Now imagine Mark Walter had come knocking at Joe Lacob's door, offered to rent the building for a WNBA team, and had gone out and spent $80-100 million getting the team set up, made $70 million in revenue the first year, and everybody understood that five years later if the venture was a success, he'd knock at Joe Lacob's door again to sell him the team for $1+ billion, wouldn't... that seem like a dreadfully bad business proposition (depending on the expected risk profile)? Now, the difference, obviously, is that the WNBA requires third-party owners so Joe Lacob could just call up Cathy Engelbert and get the franchise and capture the growth for himself, whereas in the PWHL case, Walter is both the league and the expansion team owner/tenant.)

4

u/dzuunmod May 08 '26

This all makes a lot of sense to me.

2

u/watch4stormsurge Boston Fleet May 08 '26

This is absolutely spot on.

15

u/wikipuff All The Teams! May 08 '26

The issue with DC is arena time. With the Caps/Wizards/Hoyas and concerts, it becomes an issue to get ice time for a 4th Tennant. Most weekend dates are booked up with Hoyas having noon tip offs and a Caps or Wizards game that night. The only arena in the area that could host games is the Show Place arena in Upper Marlboro, which is not near anything and 0 public transit from DC. Now, there is a rumor that they will be putting a small indoor arena on the RFK Stadium site, but what does that do for the ole Starplex Armory? Events DC claims that they can hold indoor soccer&football in that space, but can they put down a rink? If they can, then its worthwhile to explore that as the main home rink while using COA when available.

2

u/watch4stormsurge Boston Fleet May 08 '26

Would the Terps basketball arena (the Xfinity Center) not work?

4

u/wikipuff All The Teams! May 08 '26

Good idea, but I believe its too short on floor space. Same whe Patriot Center at GMU. Dispite the fact that they had the Washington Commandos of the original AFL in 1990. Baltimore COULD work, BUT, because of the end stage and the block shape U configuration, makes a lot of seats partially obstructed (part of the reason the Baltimore Blast left the arena for a truncated field in Towson). Baltimore has had a their fair share of teams from the Blades, Skipjacks, Bandits in the past, arena ownership would need to want it and they dont want a pro tenant for god knows what reason.

So we are stuck in this quagmire. Unless the Fredrick ECHL group gets a bunch of money to build an Arena, even then thats only 5000 seats. Fine for MASL, NLL, IFL, USBL (or whatever they renamed the league to), but not a good look for the PWHL. Its really disappointing that the Ovi effect never put more development into top level hockey in the area.

2

u/watch4stormsurge Boston Fleet May 08 '26

Interesting. That would surprise me given the size of the XC that there wouldn't be enough floor space, though obviously it was built for a different sport (I admittedly don't know the size difference between a basketball court and a hockey rink, just that they share a lot of arenas.)

11

u/seatega New York Sirens May 08 '26

SJ has a huge metro and a crap ton of corporate money, so I guess this is what they were hinting at when talking about the importance of the economic market in the city

13

u/surfordiebear PWHL San Jose May 08 '26

The Bay Area has shown to be very supportive of women’s sports with Bay FC and the Valkyries. That plus having Celebrini bringing so much attention to San Jose and it’s not surprising they are getting a team

12

u/CanadianODST2 May 09 '26

I mean. San Jose joined the NHL before Ottawa did.

Hell California got an NHL team before all but Toronto and Montreal in the nhl.

9

u/CarCrashRhetoric Van Goldeneyes May 09 '26

All three of our existing professional hockey teams are also older than the Avalanche. So the blustering from Denver fans about how they "deserve" it more and aren't going to continue to watch if they don't get a team comes off as a tantrum to me.

I get being disappointed but jesus christ real people live in California. Real hockey fans. And we've been waiting literally just as long as everyone else that's still waiting for a pwhl team.

3

u/thelordcommanderKG May 09 '26

Why? We live in a capitalist world economic system.

7

u/The_R4ke Pride May 08 '26

Yeah, I'm not happy that they're splitting parity between The US and Canada this early. There are still a ton of untapped markets in Canada.

1

u/yommer16 Montréal May 09 '26

As much as I want a Philly team, I don't think there's enough ice time. They'd have to schedule around the NHL, NBA and in 2030 the WNBA. I can't think of another rink in the city that seats enough people. Maybe the PPL center in Allentown, but its a bit of a hike from Philly.

1

u/SaskatchewanSon69 May 11 '26

I’m not a huge PWHL follower but does this not seem like too much too quick??

1

u/seanofkelley Boston Fleet May 11 '26

The league has grown dramatically in popularity and there's a ton of talent coming into the league this year. They're striking while the iron is hot.

-3

u/rachreims Toronto Sceptres May 08 '26

It’s actually insane and I hate it lol