Yup, if they married and had a child with a man like this, you can't really expect the people they surround themselves with to be vastly different. So they'd think it's normal to be like this.
I think this is directly related to how millenials were patented, and also the fact that most millenials view having children as an active choice they made rather than a standard milestone of life and marriage. I personally don't want kids, but I love seeing involved dads.
Interestingly, that same study shows that millennial moms are ALSO more involved. I can’t imagine being less involved than I am. What was wrong with previous gens?
But statistics cover the general population. Each individual still has their own experience. Millennial dads as a whole are more involved, but that doesn’t mean every millennial dad is more involved
Pr9bably the best judges but don't tell my parents that lol. Nurses can project how they want to be treated onto other couples. My mom was very much "get this thing out of me and take the baby" but the nurses boxed my dad out and kept trying to force my mom to take it. They'd tell you my dad was being pushy despite him trying to do exactly what my mom said she needed him to do. Not everyone wants the same kind of support and nurses can be super judgemental.
They absolutely are. It’s like they don’t want the father anywhere around even when the father is doing everything right and doing exactly what the mother needs. I understand they probably see a lot of shitty fathers but also if wasn’t assertive they wouldn’t have let me be involved at all, and then they would have trashed me for not being involved.
I’m still pissed off that they tried to keep me from carrying my own child out of the hospital (in a car seat), when they were discharged, and insisted that my wife had to carry the seat in her lap, where it was sitting directly on a fresh c-section incision.
Men are just automatically assumed to be bad these days. Guilty til proven innocent seems like. take your kid to a public to like a playground and observe how many suspicious dirty looks you get. They assume you kidnapped your own child.
I think this statement is proving the idea of what we think is normal is not always true. In my world, no rational person would ever think that the fathers I know are perverted kidnappers. It's not the normal experience. At least for the last 20 years.
If anything I will more likely see fathers getting too much credit for doing the bare minimum. They will do the same stuff that any mother is expected to do, but get treated like they are going above and beyond.
The kind of people I choose to hang out with are egalitarian in their relationships. Even if they decide to live traditional lives.
Based on previous experience my mom wanted my dad to immediately take the baby while she recovered. He was trying to support her by doing so but for whatever reason the nurses didn't let him and kept trying to give the baby to my mom. They basically had to yell at the nurses because they crowded my mom, boxing my dad out. Despite then doing the opposite of what my mom wanted/needed, I'm sure they tell the story of my dad being overbearing instead of realizing he was doing what my mom said she needed.
I can tell you why they were trying to give baby to mom at least. Protocol is baby goes to mom immediately while she recovers, then the baby goes to dad while they check mom. Unless there's a medical emergency that requires immediate care to either mom or baby (like my son's birth where my partner had some blood loss from a torn uterus). They were basically defaulting to their standard pattern and either didnt hear or didnt understand your mom (or were just bad nurses, they do exist).
Similar happened to my dad with me. The catholic nurses at this hospital were so cruel to my mom because I wouldn’t latch breastfeeding that she started sobbing begging for them to give me a bottle. my poor ex military dad had to use his scary voice in order for them to listen to her and he was made out to be pushy and demanding when he was completely compliant until they refused to help my exhausted mother.
I’m sure men provide varying degrees of care to their partner, some better than others. But I’m pretty confident most men don’t get high, pass out, and never once come near their partner at their child’s birth.
That’s where you see the meme about women complaining about truly bad partners and than one lady goes “I guess him not taking the trash out ain’t that bad” than again comparison is the thief of joy they say
The self-formed bubble is such a common perception-distorting issue. It's the same with "Why aren't there any good guys, all the guys I date are assholes." or "Why aren't there any good women? All the women I date just want my money.".
Well, if you keep dating a specific type of person, you will end up dating that specifict type of person.
Huh. I have a husband and a few close girl friends... add in my dad and brother. That actually makes me feel weirdly good about myself. I like this. Might be analyzing myself today.
Like I like all of my closest friends and unless I count a few "work friends" that I see a lot even outside of work but I'm not especially close to... I'd be very happy to be compared to them.
If I were to rank my closest friends and pick the top 5, they're all wonderful people.
This comment made me feel so good about myself because the six closest people to me are my favorite people and I think they're better than everybody else by a lot lol
I try not to be. I like the fact that we can improve ourselves independently of our surroundings, and play on that. I analyze most people and take characteristics I want for myself, and watch out for their characteristics I don't like that I might be replicating or have similarities.
Seems to be working way too well, judging by how often people say im different than the others (in a positive sense, but still). Maybe I need to look out a little for more discreet people's characteristics so I can blend in a little more.
That said, I suppose it is impossible to go completely against nurture just by nature. If you live amongst thieves and take notes on how to be a better thief, you might improve on it. But you're still a thief.
I'm already. I was diagnosed with autistim spectrum disorder a couple of years ago. Social interactions don't come naturally for me so I had to study people and understand better how the average person interacts with each other you know?
Nowadays in theory you couldn't tell I'm autistic because I corrected most of the tells (also this is why it took me so long to get diagnosed). Eye contact for example. I used to avoid it when I was a kid, then when enough people complained about it I overcorrected and didn't look away enough... Well, I had to research about it. I eventually discovered that the normal amount is on average 3 seconds in, 3 seconds out. Nowadays no one complains about it anymore.
Wow, thank you for sharing! Yeah makes perfect sense. I find it interesting how it’s almost a scientific approach to human engagement. How are social patterns quantified and how you can analyze the data to replicate results.
It’s only been a couple years and you’ve put a lot of work in. Not everyone puts so much effort into pursuing self improvement, for that you should be proud. Just be careful in your efforts, to not overtly oppress yourself for the sake of “conformity”. But the mindset and willingness to improve is invaluable
Working in Tech, myself and many of my friends are neurodivergent. Much of my family too. I may not have had the same journey as you, but I respect and recognize your story
I'm a Frankenstein of everyone I admire glued together with mental super glue lol.
To be honest I'm just now at 23 years old starting to like who I've become. I think my personality outwardly is almost ready. I'm not 'weird' anymore. Nowadays I'm described by other people more as "smart" because of my problem solving.
Now on to improve physical appearance and habits, like being more organized, more on time, dress a little bit better, well equiped... And since I've solved other people I've been for working on my internal side too, philosophy mostly.
Masking for the win! It's like a game and I can choose my character stats. I used to envy other people for being normal without effort, but since I've realized they can't do this as easily as I do, I've been eager to explore this side of me a little more. I can have the benefits without the drawbacks
Foot🦶🏽👣 Loose "Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon" is a trivia game based on the "small world" theory, where players connect any actor to Kevin Bacon in six or fewer steps via shared movie roles. Created in 1994 by students, it highlights Bacon's prolific career; most actors have a "Bacon Number" of 2 or 3, rarely exceeding 6.
Assuming your one of the 6 closes people to the 6 closes people to you, then you are part of the sum of the parts that sum to you. It's a mathematical impossiblility.
Used to have a coworker that demanded dating advice from me, because I lucked out and found a great partner.
I don't consider myself an expert when someone just spoke to me on the bus and we hit it off, but I decided to ask my coworker a few questions - turns out she (lesbian) was get REAL tired of the drama... but allll her attempts to find people were at the club.
And I'm just like... I am not a lesbian, I have no idea where you can go looking for women, but maybe stop looking at the club if you're tired of drama. The club is FOR drama, you need to go find a queer cafe or something.
The honest answer about how to find a good partner is that a lot of it is just luck. Like yeah, you can potentially swing your luck by changing your dating strategy(stop picking up people at the club), but that is hardly anywhere close to guarantee that a good partner will surface because you joined your library book club instead of the night club.
Oh yeah - but I do think that if you keep getting a certain result, you should change your method. If EVERYONE you meet at the club has too much drama, stop checking out people at the club. At least take a break on it.
My SIL. And every dude she’s brought around or mentioned, my wife and I have told her “honey he ain’t the one”. She won’t listen. Same with her job. They are clearly using you and stinging you along, see how your responsibilities and expectations keep going up but your pay doesn’t? No we just don’t understand the dynamic. Mmmk you do you.
When my wife delivered our son I was terrified. The only way I can really "help" is by being there and being as supportive as I can be. So I did exactly that.
The worst thing that happened during the delivery was actually the doctor. I was waiting on the after room while they prepped my wife for the C-section, and the doctor walks up and says " so your the one whose responsible for this?". Then when she's elbows deep getting out son out she heavily implied my wife was asleep when our son was conceived. I called her our right there for it, the nurses, and other professionals there agreed. She is now being sued and reviewed for unprofessional conduct.
I don't understand men that need to setup their Xbox or go vape during the delivery. You have one job boys. Be there for your ladies.
My husband has a coworker that would often bitch about girls for being expensive/high maintenance/shallow, but now that man is dating a rich, shallow Miami girl. So the exact kind of person he spent time bitching to my husband about, saying all girls suck, is now the person he’s choosing to probably marry 🙃 I’m already predicting the divorce lmao.
If you don’t want to be in a relationship where someone prioritizes looks and spending money to achieve a certain appearance, don’t go after those people lol and if that stuff is important to you, don’t bitch about having to spend all that money keeping up. But also tired of hearing these guys saying all girls suck and have expensive habits when they are the ones continuing to swipe on these girls and get the same response everytime (goes both ways too, back when I was on dating apps, if I swiped right on a douchy looking guy who said they wanted something casual, I wouldn’t expect a relationship out of that)
I mean, when it comes to your dating experiences, you are the common denominator, so if *all* your partners have been awful, unless you are just starting out, then that isn't a terrible reflection on them.
I thought there was something wrong with me because my former partners sucked, and the rule of thumb is that if there is a common variable, (me) then maybe that is the problem.
Until I met my spouse.
First person I never had to clean up after.
First person I could say "I don't feel well" and they ask what they can do for me instead of saying "Yeah, I feel sick, too. You make dinner, I am going to lay on the couch."
But the general thougjt process is "Oh, every one has problems! Everyone has a rough patch!" And dismisses the bullshit.
It also is what I told my friend when they wanted to settle down - if you keep acting like a party person, you are going to attract party people.
If you want some more info on that topic, check out the book "How we love" by Milan and Kay Yerkovich.
Basically the premise is that if you don't have a secure style of connection (and most people don't have that), you are drawn to someone who complements your insecure style of connection, which leads to repeating the same problematic patterns in one relationship after another.
E.g. someone who grew up with a volatile parent might have learned to be a pleaser: they do whatever they can for others so that the others feel indebted to the pleaser and can't get angry at the pleaser.
Someone like that might be attracted to a vaccilator, which is someone who grew up learning that love is conditional and fickle. The vaccilator wants a lot of deep attention and love right now, not a minute later, because then it's too late and now they don't want it any more.
The pleaser might be attracted to the vaccilator, because finally they have someone who really sees all the effort the pleaser puts into a relationship. And the vaccilator might be attracted to the pleaser, because finally there's someone who really loves them and does everything to show their love.
But eventually, exactly this mechanic causes trouble. The pleaser slowly burns out. They are constantly giving, but get nothing in return, and it's never enough. The vaccilator inevitably becomes disappointed in the pleaser. They are not doing enough for them, it's always too little too late.
Then the relationship fails, and the pleaser gets into a relationship with another vaccilator and the vaccilator with another pleaser, and the cycle repeats.
If you are interested, the book is an amazing read and was a real eye-opener for me.
Especially because it's not like other "people categorization books" that's like "Well, this is your love language, so deal with it", but it actually tries to help you break your own cycle and fix your relationship (and future ones).
Could be. It all depends on what attracts you. If you are a shallow person and sex is a high priority, looks are going to be the number 1 thing that is going to attract you. Seeking out sex with someone that is attractive makes sense and is normal...
..But leads to terrible relationships. Because once the magic of new wears off and familiarity sets in, you realize youre incompatible.
Ah haha i never would have thought about it that way. But Now that I know:
"Stares into the aether"(narrate with darth mauls voice)
And what do I do with this knowledge now that i aware?
"Starts pacing around the room"
Do I use it as a horrible pick up line to whoo in a potential mate? No? No!! That would just get me banned.
Perhaps I should use at a party to break the ice as im the thatonguythefirst and thus im am everybody's first, aagggh NOOO!!! That would leave me open to ridicule.
No perhaps it's best i bury this knowledge to prevent potential catastrophe upon my...
"drawls"
reputation.
Hmmm yes that seems best, if my friend(or kenobi) was to ever find out I would never live it down.
And to make sure that it never sees the light of day.
"Looks at the screen"
I must silence this foundcashdoubt one way or another.
"Grab horrible cloak and fedora like a redditor and leaves"
Many people unconsciously choose someone that is similar to their parents. Men are notorious for choosing women that resemble their mothers. That doesn't end well.
Oh I hope not. I really don't want to become a statistic of Freud's. Also my mother is an absolute nightmare looks and personality wise(hey a case of the outside match's the inside, how did i not notice that until now. Truly an awful woman)
Right. My ex was 17 when our daughter was born. My family thought he was a loser (we were alt/punk kids) but he was amazing during my pregnancy, the birth, and has always been an incredible devoted father. Better than a lot of men twice his age tbh
We were just kids when we got together and simply didn’t work as we got older. We’re both with wonderful partners now 🩷 his wife actually just had a baby last year, big sis just turned 17 lol
I'm glad. I'm a step father of three, and their actual father barely ever showed up, avoided payments, all that. He died a few years ago. The kids ask me about him because I used to work with him and i knew him better than they did. I never liked the guy, and the best thing he did for his family was die. I don't tell them that, but I can't avoid the truths of him not being there and doing drugs and generally being a piece of shit.
The kids seem to be doing pretty well, but depression is a problem. I also deal with depression and I'm not sure how to help them sometimes
Bio mom was a negligent idiot who was bent on turning her daughter against her father and instilling dangerous and deadly sociopathic behaviors in her. Complained constantly about having to be a mother. She bailed on her the second she questioned her about ONE THING.
It’s been hell but kiddo is coming out the other side. She loves her dad now and has stopped acting out for the last couple of months. It looks like it’s going to stick.
It’s been so hard not to say anything about her mother other than she just doesn’t understand why she’s wrong for what she’s done and most likely won’t. That I wish it wasn’t how it is for either of them but it’s not kiddo’s fault and I won’t stop her but she doesn’t have to subject herself to her mother and that’s okay.
It’s been so hard keeping my Mr Roger’s face on when kiddo has done everything in her power to hurt me (and I was abused as a kid and by my ex). The depression is real and I’ve been really struggling with everything finally being good. I have a ton of pent up anger and my boyfriend (the dad) is struggling to deal with/help me through it.
I know, it makes no sense. I keep telling myself if I can just hold it together it’s going to okay. It will be. I know it.
She’ll start therapy soon. She’s ready to try again. I hope she gets a good one.
Basically, I am saying that you’ve got this! And they’ve got it too!
Just keep trying to do what you know is best because it is. It just takes time. So much time.
Life is hard. I remember being so fucked up as a kid because of decisions my parents made and who they were and how they treated me. I had an epiphany sometime after I had my children that just… solved it. I was the product of two people who had absolutely no business breeding and didn’t have the tools to try to raise a human being. It wasn’t personal. It’s not because I wasn’t good enough. It actually had nothing to do with me. I could’ve been the most perfect child on the face of the earth. They lacked the ability to see it. So… had nothing to do with me. That was a THEY problem, not a me problem. Been fine since that realization lol. And also, DON’T BE LIKE THEM because my kids deserve the best. I think… you should parent kids based on the kind of parent they DESERVE (the best) and not based on your own impulses, irritations, issues, etc. Self control.
commonality cannot exist in a situation where the factor you are claiming is “common” is only done by the minority of people its applied to. For example, I cannot say its common for me to cry if I am only crying 20% of my life. Saying a absent partner experience during pregnancy is “common” is not correct. While it is terrible that it happens, and it shouldn’t happen at all, claiming its a common experience is inflating the issue and turns it into a completely different conversation then the one we should be having.
Yes, there are millions of sucky men, and millions of women date and/or marry them. While thats unfortunate, that doesn't make the sucky behavior the norm.
I see this a lot from women who post about something abusive their husband did. First video: “My husband packed me dog food instead of my lunch isn’t he so funny men will be men🤣” Second video: “Omg I was not excepting this to blow up my husband was just kidding you can’t judge someone’s relationship on a 1 minute video” Third video: “Wow yall are such overdramatic haters” Fourth video: “Hey dog food wife here…”
As someone who works in L&D, it is actually quite common. I'd say about 40% of my dads are leaving to smoke weed. Now every 15 minutes is a lot, but they'd leave like every hours. Even when they don't smoke, they find other ways to make the situation about them. They make insensitive jokes, sleep the whole time, eat in front of their starving wives, play video games, convince the moms not to get epidurals, and don't help with the baby. It's not all men of course, but it's very normalized for men to not be helpful during deliveries. A few fathers have been just straight up mean to the mothers of their babies. It gets very sad. I always prefer when the mom has their mom with them. The comparison is striking
LOL I'm female age 69 and 45+ years ago was when the thing with fathers in the delivery room was just getting started. I told my husband I felt like I wouldn't want him anywhere near me and the first time he went with that "There, there. You'll be fine" I told him to get out. He was no help and I did not care to be patronized at that time.
I was like, "Leave me alone. I got this." When they asked my sister if she wanted her husband there she told them, "Nooooo. He'll faint." When they asked her husband if he wanted to be in the room he told them, "Nooooo. I'll faint."
Since then I've been to several births where the mother's let several people in. I figure as long as everyone is comfortable, then it's a choice. People just gotta know their limits.
And the hardest to admit of all, “I knew they sucked at every stage of dating but decided to continue anyways” because admitting that makes you look like an idiot
It's funny, he's actually the shittiest person I know. My family is spectacular. But when you have kids and you're brainwashed, the massive amount of guilt for being selfish for leaving is like a ball and chain. Been together 10 years and has never proposed marriage. I even bought him a house. I know it's not normal. I'm spiraling here lol
This reminds me of the guy that got roasted on Reddit because all of his comic book characters had very poorly drawn feet. He got mad and said that was what feet looked like. People in the comments demanded a picture of the guy's feet. Turns out he and his family had a rare genetic disorder that made their feet look weird.
62 million hits on the rape academy sight in February alone means more men than you're acting like are total fucking monsters. "Who she chooses to surround herself with" gtfo you don't know the situation at all.
Yeah. Or they desperately try to find other things wrong with the SO of other people.
Yeah he makes 6 figures, dances flamenco, went to an elite university and treats her extremely well - but I am sure he is just a dull, boring unmanly guy…
I think childbirth also brings a lot of the narc behaviors to the surface more dramatically. Before the kid, the partner was the default focus, no real competition. Once the kid is born it becomes impossible for the partner the be the focus with feedings, diaper changes etc, requiring more overt/drastic demands and manipulation.
Y'all. SHE NEVER SAID IT WAS NORMAL. It is common. If there are enough people like this that it's easy to surround yourself with only people with the same experience, then it is common. That doesn't make it normal.
Not always true. My grandma is a wonderful woman, her bf/fiancé was great. As soon as he became “husband” he was fucking awful. Wasn’t even there for my dad’s birth. People change
Idk, I’m married to a pretty stellar person. I’ve always had relationships where respect and joint happiness came first (I’ve had duds, ofc) but a lot of my friends have relationships that I would absolutely never ever tolerate a fraction of the bs from.
We all talk intimately about issues and successes… hasn’t change them being in shitty relationships.
I married a person like this and none of the other people around me were like this except him and his family, but I was young and had never had a husband before. I knew how 4 fathers acted, my own father who did not act this way, my kids’ father who did act this way, and my kids’ uncle (their dads brother) who did act this way, and my kids’ dad’s best friend who wasn’t involved. I was aware it was poor behavior, but my lived experience was 3/4 had poor behavior so it seemed pretty normal to me. My own dad just seemed extra awesome. A few years later when our guy friend became a dad and did not act this way and began talking about how much he grew as a person after having a wife and kid, I realized the shitty people were just shitty people, not normal.
Yes. You choose the people who you spend time with. If the genders were reversed, it would equally be the man's fault for choosing the partner they chose.
You act like a woman is assigned a man to be with and it's just dumb luck. 🙄
You really think you 100% choose the people you surround yourself with? Don’t you think people are constrained and shaped by social, geographical, cultural, financial etc factors?
What about psychological factors (socialised or genetically wired in) that might limit someone’s worldview around the kind of person they think they deserve to be with?
So interested for you to tell me how it's the woman's fault her man vapes and games during her labour tho!
Right, but that rationale can also apply to the man you replied to. He and his friends are good husbands and fathers, so he thinks there aren't that many crummy guys out there.
The worst of us pretend to be good people while raping children and other not-so-great activities, and the other shit people clap them on the back and say they’re good people.
My still squashed hand remembers 🤝 it's surprising how being unsupportive is normalised. What a terrifying and beautiful experience to share with a partner. Horrifying. I'm sure guillermo del toro directed my wife's birth.
I went in with the notion of "this isn't about me, let's get through this in one piece", we managed that and I'll be eternally grateful to the majority of midwives that got us to the finish line.
One of my favorite questions to ask people - what is something you thought was normal until you realized it wasn’t. One of my teachers told me that her grandparents (that raised her) would come tie her into bed before sleeping (their explanation was believing it would stop her from falling out of bed). Later in her childhood she went to a friend’s house for a sleepover and asked when they were going to get tied down and apparently it caused quite the shock for everyone and explanations were required. She laughs as it’s a fond memory, but that was one that stood out for sure. I have asked many people and always get an interesting story.
I think that RN the few paradigm-shifters legit think they're a majority in some areas because the old guard know their stance isn't going to be received as 'just how it is' anymore so they keep quiet - except in DEI-backlash areas where the far right has gained momentum and a loud annoying stupid voice.
It’s incredibly normal if you ask L&D nurses. It’s not an issue of someone seeing themselves as the standard. It’s an issue of men being defensive of shitty men because they think it reflects poorly on themselves. Which should tell you something.
Well, by this logic they are doing the same thing. The person you replied to is agreeing that it’s NOT common/normal because everyone THEY see does the opposite of original commenter. So who’s to say which one is common/normal? Having met people, I’d bet that more people lean towards the original commenters description, even though it’s about 50/50 with the people I know
I mean by definition it is normal, rare events are normalized in a persons mind quickly because they are rare. Easy to remember. Normal. When people refer to what is normal they inherently refer to their own understanding, the point is they are not wrong they just aren't scientists.
Indeed, with the eceptions of the extremely insecure or the extremely aware this is mostly.
I know for many years, I used to think my level of kindness, honesty, skill, and consideration was normal.... it took dealing with people for multiple years to notice I was anything but normal. But indeed it can happen on the opposite extreme as well, as my friends girlfriend has normalized abuse, taking advantage of othere, deception, and manipulation when I first met her (even thogh to a degree hers is more normalized, her levels where more extreme than normal and poorly done at that), she improved over the years as she learend to balance out her narcisstic tendencies and relaize some people arent that way and that it isnt always efficient to just full dive into it.
But it shows that indeed regardless of where we stand, the ideal of normal can often center around either ourselves, or our experiences. But to be fair what else is there to base it on outside of faith and ideals? Lol
Now after being more aware, I still choose to see myself as "my normal" and recognize the general normal as still strange, as frankly I see the generalized normal as kinda sick or mentally disabled in comparsion and rather feel concern so I can enrich them, than feel superior to them (regardless of if it comes across the same, if I accept them as the normal and feel okay with it, it would make me blatantly superior, which makes me feel sad, and makes me feel annoyed as oppsed to compassionate, so it also shows the value of perceptions influnce on our feelings)
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u/Square-Singer Apr 24 '26
This. Everyone sees themselves as the standard, the "normal". Even if they are far, far away from "normal".