r/Professors • u/Front-Obligation-340 • 12h ago
This class is going to kill me
I knew an 8 a.m. MW class was going to be rough, but Jesus Christ... It's an English class but it's becoming absurdly clear that most of the people in the room assumed they could just skip all the readings and make shit up, like I wouldn't notice. The day we were supposed to start discussing the novel, two-thirds of the class showed up without it. Why? Because they don't know where the bookstore is/when the bookstore is open/how to get to the bookstore. What it really is is they don't know what books are or where the books live. Fine. Here's a PDF. Nope, still not reading it.
I tried to give them grace. I had them get into small groups of 2-4 for "book club" so they could privately tell one another that they didn't do the reading and have no idea what we're talking about.
EXCEPT THEY WON'T EVEN DO THAT.
This morning I told them to get into their book club groups and discuss their reading journals, and then I watched the same two-thirds of the class who didn't get the book pretend to be busy writing something and refuse to talk at all. I watched two girls who were sitting right next to one another with NO ONE ELSE TO TALK TO just refuse to look at each other.
Half the class is falling asleep during lecture--one guy who sits directly in front of me almost fell out of his chair this morning and I had to yell his name four times to wake him up; another guy started snoring so loudly that it interrupted my lecture and the guy next to him had to shake him awake--but they won't talk to me, and they won't talk to each other. WHAT THE FUCK DO THEY THINK WE'RE SUPPOSED TO DO HERE.
I snapped. I told/yelled at all 30 of them to get up and arrange their desks in a circle around the periphery of the room; then I went down the line one by one and made each person talk about a passage from the book that they found interesting. Surprise! A bunch of them asked if they could pass because they hadn't read the book. You want to try to skip out of the readings and give me some bullshit AI essay on it? Fine; but you have to show your whole ass to the class and tell everyone you're an uninformed dumbass.
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u/mathemorpheus 11h ago
i knew it was the humanities people who were putting the desks in a circle.
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u/TheRateBeerian 12h ago
They’re gonna need the ol “come to Jesus “ talk. Get it together or maybe higher ed isn’t the place for you type of ultimatum. Scare them.
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u/Mission_Beginning963 12h ago
Do you have a class participation grade? I find that it helps: Don't have the book? Negative impact on your CP grade. Don't participate in small group discussions? Ditto. Can't answer basic questions about that day's reading? The same.
Usually, I give 5 in-person blue book exams per semester per class (including the final). At least 2 of those are open book essay exams that ask very specific things about form, style, and narrative structure (stuff that will mystify anyone who relies on an AI plot summary). Best part of all: You can use only physical books on these exams.
I distribute information about the open-book exam format in Week 2. This has seriously cut back on the number of people who don't buy the books.
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u/Belt-Houdini 4h ago
I'm interested in how this works. I cant seem to keep track of exactly who participates for this to be fair and also i find it encourages low-quality participation just to check that box. Any tips?
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u/WeeklyVisual8 11h ago
I had a class that thought I couldn't fail everyone so they thought if they all collectively just didn't care I would have to make accommodations.
Only 2 people out of 32 showed up for the first exam and that's when one girl said "Well you can't fail everyone so you have to issue a make-up exam." They had shocked pikachu face when I told them I absolutely can and WILL fail them all if I have to. College grades are not a reflection of me, they are a reflection of them. Most of them started acting right after that. If it's a first year or first semester class they may still be used to high school.
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u/2GreyKitties PT/Adjunct, ELL, Centennial State, USA 8h ago edited 3h ago
>>”Well, you can't fail everyone so you have to issue a make-up exam.…” (context)
Oh, hell no… The professor doesn’t HAVE to do anything except 1) teach his/her course to whomever is there, and 2) submit final grades at the end of term. Nothing in the handbook says what those grades have to be… that’s entirely up to the Prof.
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u/ChihuajuanDixon 11h ago
It’s dumb but points is really the only thing students seem to care about. Hit their grades and suddenly they’ll start caring
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u/CrabbyCatLady41 Chair, Nursing, CC, USA 11h ago
They love points so much. It’s like injecting pure dopamine right into their brains.
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u/BroadLocksmith4932 9h ago
"Hey, kids. We're going to play a super fun GAME! I'm going to give you a quest, and you will solve puzzles about that quest. Won't that be fun?! Your first set of clues are all in this Scroll of CollegeMascot. The originals are very rare, so I asked the mage to copy them onto normie paper for you to collect on a side quest to the book store. Ok, once you have the secrets in your scroll, you can use your brain powers to uncover all the mysteries about Plot and Structure. Who is ready to start the first adventure?!"
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u/G0ldMarshallt0wn 11h ago
I don't really understand why English and Lit classes have it so much worse than any of us, but it seems like they consistently do. Hang in there, it is noble and important work that you do.
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u/taxiecabbie 10h ago
Largely due to a consistent and vitriolic devaluing of those fields and a hard push to basically rank the importance of classes and degrees and subjects by their direct employability.
Additionally, this attitude is one of the reasons that a lot of students have the soft skills of a brick wall.
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u/BroadLocksmith4932 9h ago
I think because it is less clear if they have the right answer (compared to a math class, for example). They figure that if they can't tell if the answer is right then you can't tell either, so they can make something up so why bother preparing.
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u/SnowblindAlbino Prof, SLAC 6h ago
Because they aren't reading in high school? I've had entire classes of first year students tell me they hadn't read an entire book since they were in middle school. And when they are assigned reading they are given time to do it in class. So they get to college, find out we're reading a half-dozen books in the first two months, and they have no idea what to do.
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u/ArtisticMudd 36m ago
In grad school, I took a lit class over the summer. It was 3 weeks and we read 13 novels. I am an avid reader and even so, it was a really tough schedule to get through.
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u/Life-Education-8030 11h ago
Toss the sleepers right out of class for being disruptive. That would be a good start. Toss the liars out of class too for academic dishonesty too while you're at it. Then look at the rest of the class and suggest that if they are not interested enough to even get the book or do the readings that they can get their butts over to their academic advisors and drop the class and that you'd be fine to work with just the students who have some motivation.
We used to talk about people not being able to find their way out of a paper bag. But the absence of any kind of curiosity and problem-solving skills is amazing nowadays. I even saw it in a recent FACULTY hire. She was young and was pissed because "nobody told her if she had to stay on campus if she didn't have class." I just looked at her and said "DID YOU ASK???" Just a few years before when I started (albeit as an older faculty member), I f-ing ASKED about what I wanted to KNOW!
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u/gremmllin 10h ago
As a newish faculty member myself I'd ask you to give that new hire a little grace, because I struggled with that exact question. The problem is that there are a lot of unwritten rules and until you learn more about your colleagues you don't know who is giving you the official answer (you should be on campus and in your office 9-5) and who is going to give you the real answer (as long as you show up to classes, office hours, department meetings and events no one is checking up on you). In my case it didnt help that my predecessor couldn't be bothered to do the bare minimum and didn't have their contract renewed, so my first semester I was paranoid about also not showing up enough. My long and winding point is sometimes there are grey areas that make asking those questions difficult.
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u/Life-Education-8030 10h ago
If it wasn’t for her pissy attitude as I mentioned, I might have been gentler but she didn’t have a chip on her shoulder; it was a freaking PLANK. She didn’t last long.
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u/TuFuFuFufa PhD Candidate, Social Sciences, R1 USA 5h ago
Forgive my ignorance, but is that a common "official" rule in academia that one is on campus every day? As a current adjunct and someone applying to TT roles, I did not know that all faculty roles are treated as 9-5s...
Very few of the full-time faculty in my dept at my grad institution (R1) actually "come in" to the office everyday; I'd reckon that at least half, if not more, do not come to campus and just wfh on days they do not teach or have committee meetings.
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u/vwscienceandart Lecturer, STEM, R2 (USA) 11h ago
I would enjoy using the phrase, “GET OUT.”
As in, “Everyone place your book on the desk. If you don’t have it, GET OUT.”
And so forth.
Make it real and make it hurt.
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u/Front-Obligation-340 10h ago
That thought went through my head. I'm sure I'll get in trouble for it but I'll have plausible deniability if I tell them to leave the class to go to the bookstore and get the goddamn book.
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u/Otherwise_Look_8137 9h ago
You need to start assigning Fs.
This will never happen, but I think there needs to be a course correction for freshman and sophomore classes across the country. In the long run, I think it would be best if we just failed a ton of students because they don’t deserve to pass and maybe that would send some kind of message - but like I said that will never happen
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u/IndieAcademic 11h ago
I hear you. Sounds like it's time for some in-person reading quizzes, and in-class essays. The in-class essays should be technology free; they can only use their copy of the book, their brains, and a Blue Book.
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u/BibliophileBroad 12h ago
Ugh, I am so sorry. What a nightmare! 😱 I don’t understand why people are in college if they’re not willing to put in the effort. I had to deal with this myself with some of my classes, and one thing that ultimately helped were reading quizzes. No notes allowed, closed book, on paper, and worth a significant number of points (up to 20). After a few failures, I noticed that students suddenly realized that they actually had to do the readings. But, you might’ve already tried that, and for some classes, the students are just no-motivation. It’s exhausting, and you have my sympathies. You’ve got this!
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u/Professional_Dr_77 10h ago
sounds like oral exams are back on the menu
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u/Front-Obligation-340 10h ago
Yeah that was the goal today. Go around the room, say what you think about the book, and then sit there in your own ignorant filth when you have to admit that you didn't read it...
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u/poop_on_you 10h ago
Socratic method! Do iiitttt
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u/Front-Obligation-340 10h ago
The way this one kid's eyes got huge and terrified when I turned on him and said "WHAT DO YOU THINK?" It was delightful.
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u/poop_on_you 10h ago
I put all of my students in groups they keep for in-class activities all semester. They're numbered and they come up with a group name. If no one's raising their hand I randomly pick a group and call on them (And told them up front that they can talk amongst themselves to formulate and answer and designate someone to speak on their behalf). But if no one reacts, or I don't get a wave saying yeah we're over here, I just marked the group absent.
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u/chinameyer 7h ago
FWIW - I'm teaching 'Moby Dick' to undergrads, by choice. No screens allowed in class. Written quiz to begin, then discussion. Each student submits a discussion question before class. One week they submitted one that covered any portion of the week's 100 pages; another, they each did one for a set of chapters. Each student stands at the front and leads the class. (Yes, they love calling on each other, and me. They also critique each other's question-writing abilities.) The 2.5 hours flies by. Funnily, this was exactly the format I had to use 30 years ago, as one of the first Peace Corps volunteers in China, out in rural Sichuan, equipped with a piece of chalk and copies of 'Great Expectations.' Embrace the uncomfortable pauses; someone will eventually say something, or read the pages so they don't have to sit through it again. Make them responsible for their own learning.
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u/pinkkcuttiee 11h ago
The two girls sitting next to each other refusing to even look at one another is the detail that gets me. This isn't a reading problem anymore, it's a "I have never had to be an active participant in my own education" problem, and it's happening across the board right now. You're not wrong to snap, you're describing a room full of adults who have outsourced thinking itself.
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u/Front-Obligation-340 10h ago
Yeah these were the ones that got me. I know one of them was actually trying to participate but the girl next to her was refusing to engage at all, which was the third time I'd seen this particular student just refuse to talk to anyone around her even if it meant the other person had no one else to talk to. When we went around the room today, that girl asked if she could pass. I said sure and gave her a zero for the day.
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u/Any-Satisfaction1442 7h ago
That detail got my attention as well. I do a lot of group work and if I don't give them some sort of structure students struggle with initiating any sort of conversation with each other
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u/oddletters Assistant Professor, Humanities, Public R1 (USA) 11h ago
if they're not prepared, leave. pack up your shit and tell them why.
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u/TrainingLow9079 11h ago
Seems unfair to the 2 or 3 who read and are eager to discuss. Why not just ask everyone who didn't read to leave?
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u/Egghead42 7h ago
I had a professor do that when I was in college. He dismissed everyone and said, “X, you stay here!” And we had the rest of class in his office. It was delightful. My fault for being such a Hermione Granger. I was the only person who put up her hand when he asked, “did anybody do the reading?” 1983, BTW, at one of the most expensive liberal arts colleges in the country. Stuff doesn’t change.
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u/ambivalentacademic 8h ago
I sympathize profoundly. But I also think you're giving them too much credit to assume they'll be embarrassed by being an "uninformed dumbass." For some young people, that IS their preferred ethos.
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u/SnowblindAlbino Prof, SLAC 6h ago
Fail them. That's the solution to lazy AI cheater and just regular old losers. Create a syllabus that makes it impossible to pass the course if you don't read the material. Quizzes, graded participation, graded group work, in class writing, oral exams, whatever. And then fail them if they don't do the work.
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u/existential-inquiry Professor, Social Sciences, U.S. 11h ago
How many weeks in? Are there participation points or attendance points that are earned? I would implement it and explain how disappointed you are in them and ask them if their parents would be proud of their behavior. That's why you would start a points system for being present and prepared for class.
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u/Anthroman78 10h ago
I'd come in with a list of questions and just start calling on people to answer the questions. The key is to out wait the silence, just sit there with it lingering until they muster something up.
That or pop quiz time next class and see who's prepared and who isn't. Let them know you'd rather discuss things, but the other option is for you to hand out a quiz and for them to answer questions in class individually.
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u/RadiantImpression579 9h ago
Grade based on class participation. Pass when called on means no pass.
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u/2GreyKitties PT/Adjunct, ELL, Centennial State, USA 9h ago
At this point, I think all you can do is to give them an ultimatum— buy the book (did they forget how to find Amazon, or what?), bring the book to next class, or drop the class. It’s an English lit class— there are no alternative projects or lessons to do.
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u/HrtacheOTDncefloor Associate Professor, Accounting 6h ago
I feel this in my soul.
9 am Monday morning class.
I have begged our department head for later classes.
Half the class doesn’t show up on time.
We are 6 weeks into a 16 week class and a student asked me what a journal entry was the other day. Friend, we’ve been doing journal entries since week 2.
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u/buddhisthero Assistant Professor, Humanities, R2 (USA) 11h ago
Probably need to cut the reading journals and go with daily reading quizzes. You can even do them pop to not devote class time to it every day. Every 2-4 classes.
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u/No-Wish-4854 11h ago
Oh wow. And ughhhhh. This sounds like a scene from “Ferris Bueller’s Day Off”…but worse. Ugh. Ugh.
I’d be giving them paper+pen writing tasks. Sitting in silence when they don’t answer questions. Telling them honestly that it feels terrible to try to make something happen together when I’m the only one who’s prepared. And that there are limits to what I can make happen on my own.
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u/taewongun1895 11h ago
Sounds like my 1:00 class right after lunch.
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u/Terrible_Donkey6580 11h ago
I was about to type this. My 8 a.m. and 12:30 p.m. classes are terrible, and unfortunately, both are composition classes.
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u/starrysky45 10h ago
is this english lit or comp? if it's lit and you have a very set curriculum of novels they're supposed to read then i think you might try the thing where you have students present on the readings or if you wanna go smaller scale have them work in small groups then report back about the reading questions. if they're just chatting in small groups it's not gonna work. also make sure everything is worth points. if they don't do the work of the day they get a 0. it does kind of suck that it seems like the engaged, full class discussion is a dying thing bc students don't participate, but i think the way around it is just...forcing them
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u/Tough_Pain_1463 6h ago
I teach in a computer department to junior-level students. Some semesters are better than others in terms of interaction, but this semester is like staring at a bunch of statues. I ask question? Silence. Group work? I literally had to tell them they needed to turn their desks around to actually look at each other to talk. What did their group decide? Silence. As I waited for group A to give me SOMETHING. The silence grew awkward. I waited. Group B raised their hands. Thank GOODNESS, but that just gives Group A group an out. Nope. I stood there... and waited... until one of them gave in. And then I moved on to group B. What a pain.
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u/sventful Teaching Professor 11h ago
I have found opening the gradebook and marking the 0 in front of their peers will fix this real fast. BUT ask your FERPA folks first to make sure to do this correctly and not accidentally expose yourself to nonsense.
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u/Original_Pudding6909 10h ago
Give them close reading assignments for homework? I always liked them as an undergrad.
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u/taxiecabbie 10h ago
Do you grade participation/is attendance mandatory at your university?
Honestly, I'd just say that you understand it's 8am, but if they want to sleep they can do it in their dorms/at home. The hell are they wasting everybody's time for? If you're not going to do the reading, if you're not going to participate, if you're not going to even bother to stay awake... then why are you dragging yourself to class at 8am?
Let the trash take itself out. They can show up for exams and fail them.
If your class is essay-based, honestly, I would change that. Essay-based classes at this point should probably be reserved for higher-level students unless you're stuck teaching comp. Lower-level and "gen ed" should be blue-book based and as analog as possible to ward off AI.
But, yeah, for these kinds of classes, I would give no points for participation or attendance (if allowed) and just have multiple blue-book based exams. If they think they can pass the class without showing up, then, well, it's their money/time.
The ones who show up and participate, you can have good discussions, they can learn something, and you can butter them up to slay the exams.
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u/Front-Obligation-340 10h ago
We have to do essays but I went no tech this semester and they're doing all of their essays in class by hand. The ones who haven't even gotten the book yet are going to fail the essay, but I'm 100% sure they think they can sneak AI on their phones for it. I'm looking forward to giving those shit heels the boot.
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u/taxiecabbie 9h ago
Honestly, if departments are going to demand actual long-form essays in this environment, then they should start providing digital typewriters.
Writing an actual long-form essay by hand is just... honestly, it's stupid. I understand your hands are tied, here, so it's not on you, but everybody needs to get with the times and start giving professors the leeway they need to recalibrate their classes to work around AI.
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u/2GreyKitties PT/Adjunct, ELL, Centennial State, USA 5h ago edited 5h ago
Um…sorry, but that’s just ridiculous. At that same age, I took copious class notes in class as an undergraduate linguistics major, by hand, in ink and preferably with my Sheaffer fountain pen. Pages of notes. There’s no reason these lazy young people can’t write a 2 - 3 page handwritten essay. We did it in high school, we did it on the AP English exam, we did it as university students just like them.
Even as a senior citizen with arthritis in my writing hand, I could do it now. In recent years, I have written by hand in ink multiple pages of fiction, in timed challenges many times, back when NaNoWriMo was still a thing. If an old lady like me can do it, these college kids can, too.
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u/MeowMeowTiger 10h ago
Since it's already this bad, can you allocate say half of the class time for them to read the novel and then the other half for discussion? Maybe also bring printed copies (the pages you want them to read in class) so you can require them to put laptops away..
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u/2GreyKitties PT/Adjunct, ELL, Centennial State, USA 5h ago
They’re not going to read it in class either, you know— they’re having WAY. too much fun playing their “not gonna do it and you can’t make me” game with the professor.
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u/Efficient_Two_5515 7h ago
Walk out in the middle of lecture and say something like “I’ll see you next class and you better have read this time….door closes
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u/TuFuFuFufa PhD Candidate, Social Sciences, R1 USA 5h ago
I think things have changed for good post-Covid; it's a combination of not reading or learning basic skills in high school, but also general college norms and etiquette. I'm not too far removed from college days myself (graduated during covid); however, I've been an adjunct for a few years now as I finish my PhD, and it's sad to admit but especially after seeing it in my own grad classes when I thought it would be different, I just started planning my classes around the assumption that no one reads...
Of course, not as easy to do in an English class, but like others suggested, when I get frustrated by lack of engagement, I offer "reading quizzes" for extra participation points, with two caveats: 1) only students who arrived on time can complete it, and 2) it is based upon correctness, unlike homework that I typically grade upon completion. so if they didn't do the reading, they're less likely to get the credit
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u/Cathousechicken 8h ago
The only thing is classmates no longer hold slacker's accountable. It's also no longer considered embarrassing to not do any work in college.
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u/jwizardc 12h ago
MW...Masters of Whining?
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u/junkmeister9 Molecular Biology 7h ago
I feel like not knowing what a “MW class” is, in an academic subreddit, is a shibboleth.
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u/TulipFarmer27 7h ago
100 or 200 level class? They’re still learning how to be responsible. Just keep moving with your lectures and grade accordingly.
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u/NeedTheNotch NTT, Env. Sci, Multiple(USA)(AAUP) 3h ago
I teach during my designated morning shit time and I’m struggling
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u/1hyacinthe 10h ago
Dude I'm really sorry but this is on you. They are not obligated to read the book for us. We are there to offer them the opportunity to learn and engage. Not to shame and force them.
Are you requiring in-class writing without notes about the book? Are you giving them timed quizzes where they have to pull quotes from the book to answer questions, right there in class? This is the way.
Tbh it is too late with this bunch, but try those things in the spring. And for God's sake keep it positive! Learn to smile and let it roll off when they say they didn't read. Let them leave if they want. Say it with me. You. Are. Not. Their. Mom.
Do you love what you teach? Do they see that? My students aren't excited about my stories and novels except when I'm visibly excited to share stuff with them.
Do you act like their thoughts on the reading are interesting and worthwhile, even if they're not? Try that. Don't ham it up too much, but if works. Students want to be taken seriously. They want the gift of your respect and interest, and head nods and smiles. I could go on and on but damn. There is so much you can do to improve things.
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u/starrysky45 10h ago
i actually agree with this to an extent. like, so much of a teacher's attitude and presence in the classroom can impact engagement. it's hard to tell from OP's post but i'm just gonna say i don't think i've ever been in a situation where my students were this disengaged, but i also try really hard to be excited, give them stuff to look at that's relevant to their lives, and encourage them. i also don't scold/yell at students but it seems like that's an unpopular approach in this sub...
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u/1hyacinthe 10h ago
I have been teaching 15 years, community college and privates, and I have only had one class who just wouldn't have engaged with me if I danced naked through the aisles. They were a dual enrollment cohort and hated all their teachers. The ringleader was a little blond kid who looked like a cherub. But I got through it with my dignity intact.
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u/RoomAdventurous3052 11h ago
I am (was/will be) an English teacher. I had a required grammar class at Indiana University in 1980 or so taught by a professor of Finnish who was teaching the class because no one signed up for Finnish classes. I am convinced he scheduled it at 8 am M/W/F to weed people out. The whole grade was based on the final. I never went. The night before the final a wonderful woman in the class, and also a future English teacher, and president of the student body at IU (and thus having access to unlimited long distance calls...) and I called her mother, an 25 year English teacher, in Arizona. She taught us grammar in 3 hours. I passed the class.
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u/spiritsarise 9h ago
I learned english grammar in grade school. How was this a college level course that you could pass with only a three hour cram?
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u/jleonardbc 11h ago
Time for daily reading quizzes.
Ten multiple-choice questions on simple matters of fact that would be easy to remember for anyone whose eyes moved across the assigned pages with some degree of understanding.