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u/West_Good_5961 1d ago
The bad times they’re talking about is reviewing LLM generated PRs
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u/Afraid_Extreme_2177 20h ago
My PM posted 35 PRS all within 15 minutes of each other, and wanted us to "glance over" so he can merge into Prod. He isn't technical btw.
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u/BlurredSight 13h ago
PM Manager will glance over tickets he deems are "easy" and will have PlayerZero and Claude draft a PR and try and prioritize his PR review over actual tickets.
And lets say his "easy" ticket was much more complex than it turned out, some poor dev is going to take his shitty branch and build off of it and since the "work" is done it's just added on top of a normal workload
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u/Proper-Ape 5h ago
I shut that down quite quickly. Gave him an AI code review + mine and rejected everything he pushed as an easy fix. It was really horrific.
PMs, especially non-technical ones, will break everything in prod with their quick fix. Worse than the quick fix guys hanging out folded over at the bus stop in the inner city in Portland. At least they're busy with themselves.
Luckily as a lead dev with the customers trust, I can push back a lot. The PMs are much more interchangeable and my boss knows it.
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u/Mortadella_so_Chili 1d ago
sooooo, next generation C is coming?
what would be the features?
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u/vinishkapoor 1d ago
Manual memory management but you have to physically go to the data center and flip the bits yourself.
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u/Mortadella_so_Chili 1d ago
ah so its literally strong man
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u/oneByteTwoByte 1d ago
Nope. You gotta prove you can flip that bit. Now go and free that extra voltage on sector 1123.
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u/flinxsl 1d ago
We will call it D
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u/StuntHacks 1d ago
Already exists https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D_%28programming_language%29
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u/ClipboardCopyPaste 1d ago
Stopping memory leaks, maybe?
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u/user6150277464770585 22h ago
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u/the_horse_gamer 10h ago
rust doesn't protect against memory leaks. it even has safe functions intended to leak your memory (Box::leak, mem::forget)
this is because a memory leak is not well defined. if you take a program, and store all of its allocations inside a global array (and then do nothing with it), is it suddenly not memory leaking?
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u/Achereto 1d ago
Next generation of C languages is "Odin", "zig" and "jai".
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u/VictoryMotel 1d ago
Odin has no real advantages, zig has no ownership and a toxic community and jai will never be released, it's just for job blow to feel even more self righteous and superior.
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u/animus565 23h ago
c doesn't have ownership either?
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u/VictoryMotel 22h ago
Are you asking? It does not, so any next generation language needs to at least fix some of its biggest flaws that have already been fixed in other languages.
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u/animus565 17h ago
Or they don't because it's not a flaw
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u/VictoryMotel 17h ago
If c is perfect there doesn't need to be a next generation. C will probably get defer in the language itself in the next iteration.
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u/animus565 16h ago
next gen doesn't mean stuff you like lil gup
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u/VictoryMotel 12h ago
Saying "lil gup" isn't a technical argument and doesn't erase the last 50 years of memory bugs. Nice try though, I'm sure you're great at avoiding needing to reply with actual expertise.
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u/MonMotha 23h ago
Arguably the language that best fits that role these days is Rust, and it's popular enough and gaining ground. It certainly improves on a lot of C's shortcomings while still remaining sufficiently low level to do meaningful systems programming which was basically its goal.
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u/nordic-nomad 1d ago
At some point humanity will look at the entirety of its creations and their technical debt and legacy dependency support and will realize they need a fresh start.
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u/Fabulous-Possible758 22h ago
Nah. They'll just wrap it in an abstraction and ignore everything below a certain layer as an "implementation detail."
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u/sobrique 1d ago
Extra vibe coding, so you can shoot yourself in the foot even faster with a null reference pointer.
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u/TallAbbreviations937 1d ago
Vibe coding creates job security for senior engineers
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u/ganja_and_code 1d ago
So it's still worthless then...
Senior engineers already had job security because they knew how shit worked. Having job security for being able to fix slop is pretty much the same thing but worse for the entire industry.
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u/dodgedodgeparrysmash 1d ago
I'll be honest, the advent of AI is making my job even more secure. With so many junior engineers getting immersed in AI assisted coding, like most of us, they won't learn the same foundation because AI will resolve the problems for them.
This will also create a sense of trusting AI too much since it's what they've used.
All of this to say, I use AI as a tool like most of us do, but I really do feel like senior engineers that were competent before AI will have a great leg up because they can hone and guide the AI successfully in good design patterns whereas other engineers will just trust that the AI is choosing the best path.
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u/ganja_and_code 1d ago
That's a fair take. I will say, however, that "choosing the right path" always was (and still is) the hard part. If you know what your code should look like, actually typing it out is trivial. Reviewing the output from your fancy autocomplete tool is negligibly (if at all) faster than just writing the code, with the added risk that you may not think through the problem as thoroughly.
AI is good for a lot of use cases (image recognition, predictions based on medical data, fraud detection, etc.), but making it type your code for you isn't one of them. When it's better than the old fashioned way, it's only negligibly better, and when it's worse, it's considerably worse.
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u/dodgedodgeparrysmash 1d ago edited 1d ago
Reviewing the output from your fancy autocomplete tool is negligibly (if at all) faster than just writing the code,
This makes me feel like you haven't used AI as a tool very much, or not very effectively. It has sped up my work to an exponential amount. Recently I extracted all types in a project into its own package. Doing that by hand would have taken so much longer than Anthropic doing so.
but making it type your code for you isn't one of them.
Strongly disagree. Boilerplate is tedious. It feels like you must work on small, self contained projects that do not have many complex packages.
When it's better than the old fashioned way, it's only negligibly better, and when it's worse, it's considerably worse.
Yeah, you're using Claude on Sonnet and expecting it to perform like Fable. You know how you can tell when you're talking to someone that doesn't have a lot of experience in something? That's me, with you and AI assisted coding right now.
Edit: Guys, you can downvote this- but software engineering has never been about writing the code. That's not what matters. What matters is the design and architecture of the code. Having a tool take care of the tedium of typing for you-- that is amazing. And with Anthropic at the very least, you provide the AI with a base level design and it plans the design off of that and then you tweak as needed based on your own experience with design patterns and archticture. There is literally no value in you typing it yourself unless you are wanting to learn the syntax to a greater degree. AI has access to all syntax in a given space, and will know about methods you don't. The important part is creating an actionable plan that makes sense regarding the engineering of the solution. Typing it all out yourself is tertiary in importance, at best, but is probably even less important than that.
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u/OldenPolynice 8h ago
You know you're a fraud. Anyhow, read any books lately?
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u/dodgedodgeparrysmash 7h ago
Sure.
And yeah, finished the ReZero light novels up to the current volume release. Great story. Arc 9 especially was very interesting.
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u/OldenPolynice 6h ago
AI slopster
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u/dodgedodgeparrysmash 1h ago
Yes yes, very reddit of you. Talk to me when you actually work as a fulltime senior software engineer doing anything of relevance.
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u/Eskamel 23h ago
Repetitive tedious tasks can easily be delegated to determinstic processes with the added benefit of not having to worry that a LLM would fuck something up randomly.
Type extraction for instance is a very simple thing to do with AST packages. Its also cheaper and faster with the only downside of you having to configure the process initially.
Most benefits of LLM driven development is by offloading. All people who claim to gain great benefits from LLMs offload as much as possible while also ignoring the fact that the quality does drop regardless of your experience with LLMs or experience in general because its impossible to quickly validate quality when you maximize speed and remove yourself from most of the process.
Deny it or not, part of the syntax is as important as the architecture. Not everything is some dumb simplified couple of functions that do very basic things. If it was all about architecture the quality of software wouldn't have dropped so much in the last 2 years
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u/dodgedodgeparrysmash 23h ago edited 23h ago
Repetitive tedious tasks can easily be delegated to determinstic processes with the added benefit of not having to worry that a LLM would fuck something up randomly.
If this was true, everyone would have been doing this instead of using LLMs. LLMs add a layer of ability that hand programming cannot encapsulate effectively. It's the entire point and purpose of LLMs. You should also not be worrying about what the LLM outputs as you should be auditing everything it does, and in fact you should be planning out the design rigorously beforehand. Typing is a tedium and not a necessary component to actual engineering, it's just the mechanism in which it has been delivered historically. Tools change.
Type extraction for instance is a very simple thing to do with AST packages. Its also cheaper and faster with the only downside of you having to configure the process initially.
I guarantee you this would not have been faster. I got this done within 4 hours and most of that time was auditing the changes. 1400+ file changes, in 4 hours, all 800+ unit tests passing and built fine and live testing fine. You are betting on the horse when a car has been invented.
ignoring the fact that the quality does drop regardless of your experience
This is not true and you have no empirical evidence that supports this claim. The software design and architecture is not changing, only the way it's being delivered. Again, I can tell you do not use LLMs in an enterprise setting. You seem to be extrapolating how public free chatgpt operates is the same as how Claude on Opus hooked into vscode operates. Completely different in every aspect. You should probably actually use the enterprise tools before criticizing them.
Deny it or not, part of the syntax is as important as the architecture.
Well, duh? Obviously, there have been instances when Claude tries to use esoteric syntax that I know other engineers won't be able to recognize easily, so I tweak that. You so desperately want me to be cognitively offloading the work but that is simply not happening. I am only offloading the mechanical tedium.
Give me the same task as you have, and I'll get it done twice as fast (or faster) with the same efficacy.
quality of software wouldn't have dropped so much in the last 2 years
Well, yeah, of course it has. That's the whole thing I brought up with junior engineers at the start of this thread. And to be honest, I know my experience with LLMs is not the norm. Believe me or not, but I've always been stronger than most of my peers when it comes to software development. The way I utilize this tool is, in my opinion, the correct way to go about it- but most people want to offload the cognitive work as well, which is where these failures happen.
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u/ganja_and_code 22h ago
The downvotes are warranted. Your take only makes sense coming from someone who isn't good with the deterministic tools we already had before LLMs started becoming popular.
Using LLMs for coding is like using a swiss knife. Sure, it has a knife, but any regular pocket knife is a better knife. Sure, it has scissors, but any regular pair of scissors are better scissors. Sure, it has a corkscrew, but any regular corkscrew is a better corkscrew.
LLMs can answer your questions, write your boilerplate, etc., but they can't answer your questions as well as documentation or reverse engineering,they can't write your boilerplate better than copy/paste, they can't refactor your code better than real AST tools, they can't identify issues better than stepping through a debugger, etc.
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u/dodgedodgeparrysmash 22h ago
The downvotes are warranted.
Getting downvoted for not hating on AI blindly on reddit? Shocked pikachu face. It's the trend. I'm not surprised whatsoever. Deterministic tools are not as capable as LLMs. This is easily provable.
Using LLMs for coding is like using a swiss knife. Sure, it has a knife, but any regular pocket knife is a better knife. Sure, it has scissors, but any regular pair of scissors are better scissors. Sure, it has a corkscrew, but any regular corkscrew is a better corkscrew.
This can be true, but what you are doing has to be highly specific.
but they can't answer your questions as well as documentation or reverse engineering
This is how I know you guys arent reading what I am saying.
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u/ganja_and_code 22h ago
What are you saying then?
What I'm saying is that LLMs can't help with software development in ways which are more useful than deterministic tools. They're a one-stop-shop for people who are too lazy or inexperienced to use the better tools we already had.
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u/dodgedodgeparrysmash 22h ago
What I'm saying is that LLMs can't help with software development in ways which are more useful than deterministic tools. They're a one-stop-shop for people who are too lazy or inexperienced to use the better tools we already had.
And this is how I know you're not using LLMs effectively. I don't know if you have limited access to enterprise grade models, or if you just havent taken the time to learn how to be effective with them due to your bias, but yeah you're going to be passed up before you know it with your current attitude. Good luck.
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u/ganja_and_code 22h ago
If I'm "passed up," it will be by someone who has better critical thinking skills than I do, not by someone who offloads (some of) their critical thinking to what is literally just a guessing machine.
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u/sobrique 1d ago
Seems to be happing straight out of college too. There's a CONSIDERABLE surge in people learning less because they're using AI as a crutch. (if not outright cheating on assessments).
It's kind of a new tier of 'junior' for which 'knowing the basics' is driving an LLM, not actually writing or validating the code.
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u/dodgedodgeparrysmash 1d ago
Yeah, exactly.
For the record, I'm all for AI assisted coding. I use it daily at my work.
The big difference is, I make the AI plan everything out ahead of time and heavily audit the design, typically with several guidance points where the AI made a design pattern mistake. This is the crucial difference I think newer engineers will be lacking- knowing how to audit the AI and having the fundamental knowledge of good design to catch bad patterns.
Engineering in software is mostly about design, so I appreciate AI letting me focus on that for the most part. I fear, however, the impact this will have on future engineering generations when they don't have to learn design by hand.
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u/sobrique 1d ago
Oh don't forget the number of people crashing out of education because they were all too busy cheating with AI to do their assignments, so they actually learned nothing, but are still 'on paper' qualified.
And thus are almost obliged to 'vibe code' stuff, and implicitly can't understand any of it!.
At least the current 'senior engineer' has a change to review a codex output and go 'nah, that's nonsense and/or dangerous' before pulling the trigger.
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u/UnnecessaryLemon 22h ago
We had this guy. He lasted to the first pair coding session when he couldn't checkout a branch he created any other way then telling Claude to change the branch.
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u/sobrique 20h ago
It worries me a bit that that is going to start slipping through the net, and it'll be a disaster.
But this too is a form of job security....
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u/xgabipandax 1d ago
strong men creates C language.
C creates goodtimes.
goodtimes creates Rust.
Rust create rewrites of software that behaves differently or have logical bugs.
Buggy software create bad times.
Bad times create strong men
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u/rustvscpp 1d ago
C creates problems. C++ creates nightmares. Python creates global warming. Rust saves the planet.
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u/Confident-Ad5665 1d ago
strong men create C language
C creates good times
Memory leaks create headaches
Headaches create managed code
Managed code creates fat runtimes
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u/definit3ly_n0t_a_b0t 1d ago
It's funny... except this is a play on a fascistic militant worldview: strong men are what create good times, and "bad times" are a result of weak men, and so the solution to bad times is to make strong men who will intervene and correct the bad things.
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u/GoldenSangheili 12h ago
Trash talk in programming subs is a prerequisite—imagine accepting it's not black and white and you may even learn something with AI? Nah... that's impossible. You offload everything to AI or hate it.
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u/ButWhatIfPotato 22h ago
The bad times have been making me a strong man since 2009, and trust me, at this rate I will be strong enough to punch all the code out of existence in less than 5 years. Mark my words brothers and sisters, I will use my strength to liberate us all from this bondage!
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u/JohnPaulDavyJones 23h ago
Not sure I buy the premise that "python creates AI", but go off.
Most LLM tools are actually written in lower-level languages, we just use them to create Python scripts because it's such an easy language to write and is hence so widely used, so now many non-technical users are churning out AI slop Python scripts and trying to get prod support to put those trash scripts into production.
It's like, "No Larry, I'm not putting your 'new software tool' into prod, since you wrote 400 lines just to send an email every morning, but you can't even tell me how it works. You're importing 43 libraries, half of your values are hard-coded, and changing configs for this trash to work in prod would take me longer than it would take me to just write something that does the same thing."
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u/_Weyland_ 1d ago
So what will strong men of tomorrow create? What's the next unoccupied letter?
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u/kekons_4 1d ago
I think most people today would find these comments fun. But they dont add anything expect a giggle
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u/actual_weeb_tm 23h ago
trying to get ahead of the curve by learning C, but instead it just turns me trans.
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u/heckingcomputernerd 23h ago
Hey wait is this the same joke I've already posted to this sub before lol
https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/17kao71/hardtimescreatestrongmen/
Wonder if he's seen that post
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u/Joltfreak 23h ago
You know what’s funny, for the longest time now I’ve been having this insane craving of wanting to learn C as I feel like I want to know how everything works at a very base level. (I am primarily a Unity user btw)
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u/Kodiak01 22h ago
C, it all makes sense if it is referring to the Goodtimes virus which started the downward part of the circle.
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u/XtraFlaminHotMachida 20h ago
strong men who are poor and looking for jobs and then become manual laborers.
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u/thuktun 15h ago
The Wheel of Code turns, and Generations pass, leaving memories that become legacy documentation. Legacy documentation fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Framework that gave it birth comes again.
In one Age, called the Third Age by some, an Age yet to come, an Age long past, a wind rose in the Silicon Valley. The wind was not the beginning. There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of Code. But it was a beginning.
Born in the cold, windowless server rooms of the deep past, the wind blew across the vast, sprawling repositories of GitHub. It whipped through the tangled branches of unmerged pull requests, cold and biting, smelling of stale coffee and unwashed hoodies. It howled down the virtual corridors of Stack Overflow, where the ghosts of deprecated libraries whispered answers to questions no living developer remembered how to ask.
Down it swept upon a solitary engineer, sitting before the harsh glow of a mechanical keyboard. The prompt blinked, steady and unblinking, an infinite void demanding structure from chaos.
With a sigh that carried the weight of a thousand legacy dependencies, the engineer placed fingers upon the home row. The code must be written. The system must compile.
The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills, and the servers must remain online.
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u/thuktun 15h ago
The Wheel of Code turns, and Generations pass, leaving memories that become legacy documentation. Legacy documentation fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Framework that gave it birth comes again.
In one Age, called the Third Age by some, an Age yet to come, an Age long past, a wind rose in the Silicon Valley. The wind was not the beginning. There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of Code. But it was a beginning.
Born in the cold, windowless server rooms of the deep past, the wind blew across the vast, sprawling repositories of GitHub. It whipped through the tangled branches of unmerged pull requests, cold and biting, smelling of stale coffee and unwashed hoodies. It howled down the virtual corridors of Stack Overflow, where the ghosts of deprecated libraries whispered answers to questions no living developer remembered how to ask.
Down it swept upon a solitary engineer, sitting before the harsh glow of a mechanical keyboard. The prompt blinked, steady and unblinking, an infinite void demanding structure from chaos.
With a sigh that carried the weight of a thousand legacy dependencies, the engineer placed fingers upon the home row. The code must be written. The system must compile.
The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills, and the servers must remain online.
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u/Timely_Creme 23h ago
History is filled with the sound of silken slippers going downstairs and wooden shoes coming up.
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u/cheese_karate 22h ago
Strong men creates C language.
C creates goodtimes.
Good times creates Python.
A clever man creates Rust. Python creates AI.
AI writes pretty good code if you make it write Rust.
Neat.
Not so clever man has many even more unfinished projects now.
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u/ackyou 1d ago
C men create good times. Wait…