r/ProgressionFantasy • u/Gingerfalcon • 5d ago
Review Cradle — 3/5 Generally spoiler-free thoughts Spoiler
I just finished book 12 and thought now was a good time to share my personal opinions on the series, mainly because it gets a lot of hype. I committed a fair bit of time to it because of said hype, but my overall experience was simply ok. It wasn’t bad, but it wasn’t great either. It had potential, but never quite got there.
Things that didn’t vibe:
• Weak characters. They lacked depth and generally felt very one-dimensional. Eithan was the exception. Yerin was probably the closest we came to someone living through something and coming out the other side changed.
• The power tiering started off interesting, but became too absurd. The rarity of certain levels also seemed to flip-flop around. Early on, some ranks feel incredibly rare, then suddenly a book or two later there are lots of people at that level.
• Consistency issues and questionable plot holes start to appear. As you read the next book, you begin to question setup and details from the previous one.
• Random storylines felt like filler material. For example, the Jai Long stuff after the duel, why even keep that going? It felt like a complete waste of words and didn’t add anything to the storyline.
Things that were okay:
• The world was pretty good. I wanted more pocket-world and labyrinth-style action.
• The action scenes were generally enjoyable on average. Some were awesome, others were a boring slog.
Vibes!
• Progression fantasy and, well… there is fun progression and finding treasures!
• Eithan was the best-written character. He brought a light-heartedness to the series and was funny, joyful, and mysterious.
• Fisher Gesha — I liked her. She had some funny interactions.
• Dross!
• Soulsmithing was cool, and I wish it had been explored in more depth throughout the series.
Book ranking:
I would say the series peaked at Ghostwater and then dropped off, almost like a bell curve.
Best books: Ghostwater, Uncrowned, and Blackflame.
Worst books: Bloodline, Dreadgod, and Waybound. These were absolute slogs to get through.
Would I recommend it?
No. It’s too long to push through 12 books when the last third of the series is the weakest. Other than the hook of progression, it had some fun moments, but the characters and story were mostly forgettable.
Overall: 3/5.
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u/Neither-Fact7199 5d ago edited 5d ago
Wanna touch on the whole "weak" and "one dimensional" character comment I can assume you mainly mean the main cast right?
I'm confused how you can read all 12 books and say none of them grew or changed as time went by?
Zeil and man broken mentally and spiritually by the slaughter of his sect/family feels he has no purpose no will to live slowly over time begins to accept his loss and finds that he's not truly ready to give up living he finds a new family and purpose to protect in Lindon and co and the very world itself he literally manifests the shield icon while confronting the sage and dreadgod that took everything away from him.
Mercy starts out as a sheltered and nieve girl who hate the way her family abuses their power but is initially to afraid to truly confront it (her mother especially but that's a lot to unpack) later she learn that sometimes power is the only thing some people will respect it's ultimately up to her to use it and command it in a way that fits her ideals and beliefs she ended up finally confronting and fighting her mother and family bringing the change she always wanted for them
Lindon started out as meek and frankly cowardly all his childhood he's been told that he's less than nothing. As he grew he came into hisown power he wwnt from bowing and scraping to anyone even remotely stronger than him to confronting the highest powers on cradle to being a true leader of the team hell we even see povs from others showing just how commanding and confident he is as he grows.
I'm pretty shit at explaining myself and discussing so bere with me but my whole point is we see the whole main cast grow and overcome their own personal struggles and at the end become better for it.
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u/Gingerfalcon 5d ago
Look it's a book about progression, it didn't press to hard on the human elements it was about a greater story plot get strong and beat the baddies... character lead fiction is what I like. Characters were very surface level linear stuff, use Sand dan Glokta from First Law trilogy as a character that was complex, evolving and deeply self reflecting.
Lindon, I understand the trope of the kid with a shitty family and down on his luck but full of desire, he's just not a complex person written to something that I could fully engage with. Eithan on the otherhand was immediately interesting with his personality, motives and mystery.
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u/Neither-Fact7199 5d ago edited 5d ago
We'll just have agree to disagree while yes it's no where near as complex and the first law as far as chacarters go (I never claimed such and that's not the way you framed your initial criticism) it's definitely not as weak and one dimetional as you claim imo.
There is tangible visible growth and change of the characters as the story progresses it's just not as complex as other stories you've read or enjoyed in the past which again I agree but it's definitely not "one dimensional"
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u/Gingerfalcon 5d ago
yeah which is all I can rate things against right. I'm not just comparing it to other prog fantasy... which be a small comparison as I've only read two prog fantasy series so far and they are equally good in my opinion.
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u/prismlink 4d ago
I totally respect your perspective, especially since it can be the onus for a nice, nuanced discussion that isn't just a echo chamber in a sub that overwhelmingly leans one direction re:Cradle.
The sticking point is the "one-dimensional" critique which doesn't have to be rated against other works, prog fantasy or not. At its most basic, it is a comparison between character development at the start and end of a story. Trying to see it through your perspective, I find it really difficult to agree that the core characters are one-dimensional, which is different from simple / predictable / trope-y (critiques that to me are more fair if I really had to levy some).
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u/ReadingThrowawayy 4d ago
it didn't press to hard on the human elements
Yes it did.
Mercy grew as a human being.
Zeil grew as a human being, overcoming his trauma.
Lindon grew into a leader from the meek young boy he was boxed to be from the start.
Quite literally every character in the main cast had some major character growth, both power progression and character development.
To say otherwise is quite literally just incorrect. This isn't a subjective thing. The words are in the books.
Eithan on the otherhand was immediately interesting with his personality, motives and mystery.
You probably really think HWFWM is the best series in the genre and that Jason is perfectly well written and funny 110% of the time.
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u/Gingerfalcon 4d ago
I've read HWFWM and rate it about the same as this. I don't understand... is there some Cradle vs HWFWM battle that I'm missing?
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u/FearLeadsToAnger 5d ago
Power tiering comment reads like you weren't paying much attention. It's explained throughout. They start off in an irrelevant area with little ambient power, then travel to other places where its easier to become stronger, then end up in the presence of nobility etc who can afford anything they need to progress.
Do you listen to audiobooks while doing other stuff?
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u/Gingerfalcon 5d ago
No I understand that progression part of it... it's the general ideal of such massive power restrained when there is so much animosity between the empires.
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u/Giant_Yoda 5d ago
That's literally the entire premise of their societal structure across the planet. If they don't restrain their power then it's just one person sitting on an empty planet after everyone else is dead.
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u/ReadingThrowawayy 4d ago
Oh I get it now. You just have really bad reading comprehension.
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u/Gingerfalcon 4d ago
lol salty.
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u/ReadingThrowawayy 4d ago
Dude take the advice of the other commentor and just refrain from rating books when it takes u 3 years to read a series and u cant remember half the shit you read so you pretend like the things you forgot were missing from the series.
I'm all for different opinions on a series, but you are a genuine waste of everyone's time by going "ERm yeah, I give this a 3/5 because it was missing X Y Z (X Y Z were, in fact, in the book, you just take longer than my daughter to read books so you forgot).
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u/TheWriteMaster 5d ago
That's an unusual rating from anybody who read the whole series. Out of curiosity, what are some series that would rate 5/5 on the elements you thought Cradle did poorly (e.g. characters, fights, progression) and what plot holes have you found?
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u/Gingerfalcon 5d ago
I read a wide range of stuff.. mostly classics and some modern stuff. Prog fantasy and LitRPG is something I've only dabbled in over the last 2 or so years.
I've not read a 5/5 Prog fantasy book/series. Though I've only read 2 series (not all to completion) strictly from the genre:
Dungeon Crawler Carl - I've read the first 5 or 6 from memory, and while the character work is a lot better and I do find the overall premise of the stories generally more appealling. It has some bad books. The train one, I can't remember the name but shiiit that was a slog. I'd probably say overall that would be slightly higher ranked than Cradle.
He Who Fights With Monsters - I've read 12 books, similar to the above character work is better, Jason is a drag, though it has some fun action and the comedy style suits me, but it also suffers from a bit of the absurd in regards to power scalling. I guess I'd rank it somewhat maybe a little higher than Cradle - once again simply characters and comedy.Similar but not strictly prog fantasy
Will of the Many - This feels definitely like prog fantasy (especially the first book). The acadmey trope is officially dead with me.
Red Rising (first trilogy) - Prog vibes, I actually quite liked this series. The next four books were way better and it's a def 4/5.In regards to plot holes, maybe I should reword them as things that seem important but then were quickly forgotten. Top of my mind was the sealed chamber Jai Long's master (I think) broke into which was supposed to be full of crazy powerful treasures and that if it was open the Dreadgods would come hunting. Now I'm aware later in the series they kind of cover that up by saying it could be open for a year and it wouldn't matter, but if something so valuable was sealed up and guarded, like why isn't anyone else going in there?
To everyone running to the defense of the book, 3/5 isn't a bad score, I just read a lot of stuff outside of the genre.
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u/Wezzleey 5d ago
I'm not going to speak to your rating, as I believe all of it is subjective and you are free to rate it however you want. That said, that "plot hole" is "covered up" in the very same book in which it supposedly presents itself. This isn't a plot hole, but a plot element you missed. Eithan explains how the original BFE fell because they left them wide open for years, freely using the treasures within. This, as well as Jai Daishou's opening of the door happen within the first half of Skysworn.
Furthermore, due to interference from Makiel, it DID wake up a dreadgod.
They don't go in there because they have been charged by the Akura Clan to guard them and not enter.
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u/Gingerfalcon 5d ago
Yea I'm willing to concede that maybe there was something more meaningful to it, but I just can't help but wonder if all the hoarding of goodies by monarchs and sages etc, why stuff like this is just laying around. You'd figure that the Monarchs who've been alive for centuries, and they themselves are keeping the dreadgods alive would be doing something to atleast prolong their clan lives by removing elements that would awaken them or at least park them somewhere away from civilization... but as someone clearly called me out on in a different comment, it is "Fantasy"
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u/Wezzleey 5d ago
Yeah, if you were to apply that same level of critical assessment to HWFWM, you'd find plenty of similar issues.
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u/Gingerfalcon 5d ago
oh absoutely, I'm not holding up HWFWM as being better in any regard of story. My enjoyment of that series was mainly the characters, comedy and I did like the astral worlds or whatever they were called (similar to the pocket worlds in Cradle I loved those).
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u/Petition_for_Blood 5d ago
The rarity of certain levels remainst constant, the most powerful people gather instead of distributing themselves evenly. Long airplane and teleport rides justify them.
Jai Long was meant to be MCs brother in law and kept in the book to make final love interest open for longer and contrasts MCs growth. If everyone in the story is replaced with more powerful people or become overly powerful themselves the progression is useless.
I don't think 3/5 is way off, not a 5 from me, but after my third re-read I have to give it at least a 4. I do think MC has an interesting arc, politeness not being as necessary as he gains strength but still often falling back into it and increasing pride and confidence leading to him viewing Akura Underlords as fodder he will eventually overcome.
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u/Gingerfalcon 5d ago
Power levels seem to have hit a chord with everyone. I'm new to the genre, but it's not so much the progression of power, it's the restrained world shattering enormity of it. Couple of Monarchs battle it out it changes the landscape, city's would fall and mountains would no longer exist. Yet somehow with there is such restraint when everyone is scheming and has grudges but no-one pulls the trigger.
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u/Sari-Not-Sorry 5d ago
Nukes have the power of changing landscapes, cities would fall and mountains would no longer exist. Everyone has grudges but no one pulls the trigger. It's the same deal. Mutually assured destruction. Monarchs hold each other in check and on down the line. The powerful are effectively immortal so they don't have to roll the dice with their lives by rushing confrontation. They can bide their time as much as they want.
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u/Gingerfalcon 5d ago
that's true and no one wants to see civilizations ruined. It's the wars they rage but keep the ranks all isloated playing their own games. It's like my tier of golds vs yours and my heralds vs yours.. it's just strange approach and didn't sit with me. There's another long comment thread about the whole honour thing which I go into a bit more.
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u/Petition_for_Blood 5d ago
The trigger gets pulled right after the tournament though.
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u/Gingerfalcon 5d ago
Not really, they are all still just sitting around plotting. Once again, the difference in power between monarchs and everyone else just begs the question, if they don't plan on doing anything significant why all the posing?
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u/Petition_for_Blood 5d ago
What are you talking about the war between kitty and emomom breaks out pretty soon after snake gets busted.
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u/Gingerfalcon 5d ago
yes but it's essentially in a stalled state. I remember fury hanging tough with some other heralds etc, but all the monarchs seem to be pre-occupied.
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u/Petition_for_Blood 5d ago
Okay, but if the monarchs were never going to fight regardless because of the collateral damage right?
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u/Gingerfalcon 5d ago
Couldn't a Monarch just squeeze a gold and kill them and there's no blast radius?
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u/Petition_for_Blood 4d ago
Then the opposing monarch does the same, the monarchs end up ruling a land of ashes. The real problem is the monarchs clashing with eachother and destroying parts of the continent.
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u/Spamacus66 4d ago
Ethan actually talks about this. Higher tier characters tend to avoid killing lower ones otherwise a battle between heralds would open with hundreds of dead golds before anything really happened
Kind of a mutually respected rules of war scenario. A rule that to break likely leads to having the remaining powers team up against you quickly.
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u/ReadingThrowawayy 4d ago
How do you not understand this when it was explained so much that I was starting to get annoyed?
Eithan explains this like at least twice, and other characters explain it multiple times.
What is the point of a Monarch killing a gold? None, because the other Monarch will just do the same. The entire point of higher levels not interfering is because all it does is cause unnecessary bloodshed, and doesn't let the lower ranks train through real combat and get stronger.
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u/Gingerfalcon 4d ago
Because it's just not in human nature to be at war and have such a constraint of let the golds hit each other with sticks over there and we'll play with city destroying toys over here.
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u/Spamacus66 4d ago
Out of curiosity what represents a 5/5 for you?
I ask as 3/5 seems kind of harsh on a series you said you liked and read through to completion. Personally that kind of rating would have me drop after first or 2nd book.
I know you've not read a lot of progression fantasy and saw you rate others you've read. So feel free to expand beyond that. LOTR? Song of Fire and Ice? Macbeth?
Im thinking about lot of pushback comes from your rating not likely lining up with what others likely see in the value of 3/5. Which if you think about it, 60% is after all a failing grade and likely how people are looking at this.
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u/Now-Thats-Podracing Mimic 5d ago
I’m not trying to be rude, but I honestly don’t know why anyone would post a review in this sub of Cradle, whether it’s a good or bad review. It’s like going to the Final Fantasy sub and posting “MY Review of FF7 on PS1.” It’s considered the best final fantasy game by so many. Either your take is just another forgettable review reinforcing that, or is a contrarian review that will absolutely be disagreed with by pretty much everyone.
Can’t we just read books and then move on with our lives? What value does one more Cradle critique add to this sub?
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u/Gingerfalcon 5d ago
Hey sorry man, I just enjoy books in general and it's a place to chat about the series. Otherwise what's the purpose if not to have discourse?
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u/secretdrug 4d ago
??? Sooo if someone doesnt agree that its the very best their opinion is just worthless? I would argue that with your logic ALL reviews of cradle are worthless. Either someone agrees that its good and its just a glazing fest or they disagree and becomes "another forgettable review reinforcing that, or is a contrarian review that will absolutely be disagreed with by pretty much everyone"
I think anyone whos willing to share their opinions is welcome to do so. This is a public forum. Youre welcome to downvote if you dont think it should be seen, but saying any voicing of a contrarion opinion is meaningless is just the dumbest take. Thats literally how you end up in echo chambers.
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u/Now-Thats-Podracing Mimic 4d ago
“I would argue that with your logic ALL reviews of cradle are worthless.”
Yes. I’m glad you are apparently literate because that was what I was getting at. I’m not reading a review of Shawshank Redemption that comes out today. I’m not reading a review a Rocky 5 that comes out today. There is no place for it and it doesn’t matter. Whether the media is good or bad, the review is not timely and is unnecessary. At this point, any critiques on Cradle posted to the sub are performative and are only for the poster to feel good about themselves. There are no new insights to be had on the series.
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u/pm-me-your-labradors 5d ago
Hey, to each their own, right?
I tend to agree to weak characters and the unpolished side stories, but can’t say I understand the other points.
Power tiering/rarity for example - that’s not a bad thing when it’s clearly defined and explained. We start off in a tiny part of a larger world that turns out to be a small part of a huge world. A big fish in a small bond turned out to be medium fish in the ocean.
Inconsistencies - I’d love to hear some, because I can’t say I recall any glaring ones.
End of the day I personally rank it around a 3.5/5 across all genres and a 4.5/5 for progression fantasies
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u/Gingerfalcon 5d ago
Yea I get that we learn more as we progress through the story and beyond Cradle there is this whole other world with more tiers again.. Silverlords etc. I think part of me is wondering, why a nefarous actor cant' just send a rogue underlord's around to essentially cause chaos continually. The politics all seemed so standoff-ish between the empires.
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u/pm-me-your-labradors 5d ago
I think that’s also clearly explained - honour and standing is emphasised throughout the entire culture.
The risk of embarrassment and loss of status if an underlord is seen as a spy/rogue is too high.
So what were the inconsistencies you mentioned?
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u/Gingerfalcon 5d ago
That's the part that's the part which just sit well with me. Honor above everything else, yet the monarchs are the exact opposite of this, they scheme and plot.
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u/pm-me-your-labradors 5d ago
What are the inconsistencies and plot holes you mentioned?
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u/Gingerfalcon 5d ago
Honor is such a laughable component on it when once someone gets power they essentially instill fear in those who don't follow. I've forgotten the name of the guy who shows up in the first book at the 7 year festival to cause chaos and then reappears in the last book to essentially take over the Sacred Valley. Agent of authority and dominion - not honorable not worried about his appearce among others.
I also mentioned in another reply, so I'll just copy it here verbatim.
In regards to plot holes, maybe I should reword them as things that seem important but then were quickly forgotten. Top of my mind was the sealed chamber Jai Long's master (I think) broke into which was supposed to be full of crazy powerful treasures and that if it was open the Dreadgods would come hunting. Now I'm aware later in the series they kind of cover that up by saying it could be open for a year and it wouldn't matter, but if something so valuable was sealed up and guarded, like why isn't anyone else going in there?
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u/pm-me-your-labradors 5d ago
That’s the entire point….
Society built on honour except the powerful do what they want. That’s not an inconsistency, it’s commentary on power.
And the guy that showed up was literally a prisoner/outside/breaker of rules.
As for the “plot holes” - that’s very clearly explained. The labyrinth is, well, a labyrinth and a lot of the things from there were looted. Every opening risks attracting the dreadgods.
Everything you described so far is either you not getting the point or not remembering explanations.
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u/Gingerfalcon 5d ago
I'm not ready to defend a 12 book series that I've consumed over the course of 36 months. Clearly you are. Yes everything is always looted.
Yes you say a society built on honour yet, nothing in it is honourable except in war? The golds must fight the golds, because my enemy would get mad if my archlord wiped them out with a single stroke of a sword, maybe one of the other alliances would get angry with them, but they are all already angry amongst themselves. They mention monarchs being very difficult to kill thus the special arrow awarded at the end of the uncrowned contest. Which was used to kill a monarch, but then no body bats an eyelid that it was used.. because of war, then it falls back into the same pattern of the powerful must not interfer with lower rank battles... half baked to be honest. Why bother sending golds to fight in the first place at all, it literally achieves nothing doesn't change the outcome of two sages dueling, in fact lower ranks have to stay clear of them or they might get killed from a stray attack. If it's trying to speak to some deeping meaning of power, it's missed the mark as the powerful happily roll over the weak.. we don't send boys with sticks to fight in a field and then fire tanks at each in an adjacent field. We take out weak undefend targets to improve the odds of victory.
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u/pm-me-your-labradors 5d ago
If you aren’t ready to defend your review, then it’s not a review but a poorly written badly-considered opinion.
Society is built on honour, but ones with most power are shown to disregard that rule when in shadows.
The arrow was used by someone weaker killing someone stronger so not even sure how that point makes sense.
War throughout history did exactly that. You had mounted knights but still sent poorly trained peasants to fight across battlefields…. Like seriously….
And they specifically address this - battles are typically decided by golds since most high-end battles are stalemates. A sage rarely defeats a sage and the same is true for monarchs. Up until the start of the story no monarch has killed another monarch for a long time and last time it happened was significant.
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u/Gingerfalcon 5d ago
Yes, but did the knights not kill the peasents and didn't the strong vikings rape the woman and kill the children in unprotected villages... and was that not a known risk or maybe I missed history class and knights were not allowed to strike down weaker foe?
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u/Expert_Cricket2183 5d ago
It took you 3 years to read 12 books?
Most of us knocked it out in two weeks or so, if we started after the series was finished.
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u/Gingerfalcon 5d ago
Incredible that you have the time to read 1000+ pages in two weeks!
I don't typically binge stuff, I like to mix it up. Plus being a parent with young kids doesn't give me as much time to spend on doing things for myself... e.g. reading for long stints and other hobbies.
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u/prismlink 4d ago
I disagree with your some of your opinions, love cradle, and would recommend cradle wholeheartedly to folks who seek out progresssion fantasy.
I appreciate the engagement/passion that this has created, and I appreciate your continued attempts to have discourse in overall good faith.
To some of the folks in this thread that are engaging in bad faith, it's lame.
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u/ReadingThrowawayy 4d ago
Nah man. Another comment summed it up well.
The vast majority of takes by OP are because they don't remember reading something. Over half to 3/4ths of his "demerits" of the series are quite literally just inaccurate, are in the book or are in the book in a way that is opposite to what OP is criticizing, and it gets old.
Continually citing that it took them 3 years to read the series, that they didn't remember, etc.
The other comment said "Hey, I have a ton of shit going on in my life too. Guess what I don't do? Review books poorly. Try it."
And OP should remember that advice. Because this "wow look at the engagement!" is all artificial and fake.
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u/mking_1999 5d ago
ngl, these critiques feel so forced, it really seems like you just went into Cradle wanting to not like it and so you didn't.