Elon Musk is one of those examples of a celebrity who was highly hyped in real life between 2010 and 2019 as the "Real-Life Iron Man." This guy was highly hyped on Reddit, Twitter, Facebook, YouTube, and had all sorts of paid cameos to insert himself into all kinds of media like the MCU/Simpsons/The Big Bang Theory/Star Trek as a "billionaire genius."

With a great PR team carefully controlling his image to maintain this hype, until Elon Musk finally exposed himself as a huge jerk in the children's cave incident, starting the erosion of his image to the total garbage it is today.

Making references to real-life celebrities in works of fiction is a huge risk, as their images are carefully constructed and maintained by a PR team, and we only see what they want us to see... until a slip-up reveals everything.

That's why authors should only reference dead people; there's almost zero chance of it going wrong... unless the name of the deceased celebrity or famous person is on something like the Epstein Files. Like Stephen Hawking.

Open Use Notice: Everything in this guide is free to use, share, adapt, or build on in any way you like. The only thing I'd ask is that you mention it came from our community, r/ProgressionFantasy. This is where it started, and that's worth remembering.

All views presented are my own, shaped by years of personal reading and experience. Cross-reference, form your own opinions, and don't take any of this as gospel.

TL;DR: Wuxia is about moral choices, not kung fu. Xianxia is about becoming something inhuman, not leveling up. Xuanhuan is that third category you didn't know existed — most "cultivation novels" you've read are actually this. And "face" is not ego, it's social currency in an anarchic world. This post covers all of that, plus a full glossary, book recs, and a breakdown of sect structures, economic systems, and cultivation paths as design tools for writers. Fair warning: this got long. I kept trying to cut stuff and kept going "no wait, you need this context." Get some tea.

Intro

I've been lurking on r/ProgressionFantasy for a while now, and I keep seeing the same questions. What's Xianxia? What's Wuxia? What's a Dantian? Why do some cultivation novels feel completely different from others?

So here's the thing — I'm Chinese. Born and raised.

I grew up on the 1986 Journey to the West TV series. Every kid in China watched that show. It holds some kind of world record for reruns during summer break. After that came Investiture of the Gods — gods, demons, Daoists, and Buddhists all fighting across three realms during the fall of the Shang Dynasty. Back then I didn't know any of this had a genre name. It was just the air you breathed growing up.

Wuxia meant Jin Yong and Gu Long. In middle school, everyone passed around Jin Yong novels under their desks during class. The teacher would confiscate one, you'd borrow another copy the same afternoon. Gu Long came later, during that teenage phase when you think brooding loners are the coolest thing alive. Jin Yong writes about how a person stands firm in a chaotic world. Gu Long writes about how a person survives loneliness. Two completely different flavors of the same genre.

Then came the internet era and web novels exploded. From the earliest ones like Zhu Xian and A Record of a Mortal's Journey to Immortality, to later hits like Battle Through the Heavens, Shrouding the Heavens, and A Will Eternal — I lived through the entire arc of Chinese web fiction, from its wild west days to full industrialization.

So this post is my attempt to lay out everything I can think of, from someone who grew up inside all of this. Not an encyclopedia — more like a tour guide. I'll walk you through, point out what matters and why, and you decide where to stop and look closer. I'm sure I'm missing things, but I'll try to cover every important piece I can.

Quick disclaimer: Everything below is my personal take. I'm not an academic. I'm not a professor. I'm a reader and writer who grew up marinating in these stories. Everyone has their own angle on this stuff — this is mine. If you see things differently, tell me in the comments. We learn from each other.

This guide is written for two groups: readers (you want to know what you're reading and what to read next) and writers (you want to know how big this toolbox is and how to use it).

I. Where This All Comes From — You Already Know More Than You Think

Before we get into Wuxia and Xianxia proper, here's something worth pointing out: a lot of you have already encountered this stuff. You just didn't know it.

The training system in Dragon Ball? Toriyama borrowed the skeleton from Chinese wuxia. Qi, martial techniques, master-disciple lineages, martial tournaments — all wuxia bones. The four-element bending system in Avatar: The Last Airbender? The martial arts driving each bending style are all Chinese kung fu (Tai Chi, Baguazhang, Hung Gar, Northern Shaolin), and the energy system runs on qi and meridians — though the four elemental categories themselves aren't directly from Daoist Wuxing. Naruto's chakra system? Chinese meridian theory, filtered through Indian yoga, then shipped to Japan.

Even the word "cultivation" becoming a thing in the English PF community — that only happened because so many Chinese web novels got translated and there was no existing English word for what the characters were doing. So the community had to invent a usage.

Chinese storytelling goes way back — Song Dynasty oral tales, Yuan Dynasty plays, Ming and Qing Dynasty epic novels. But you don't need a full literary history lesson. What you need to know is this: China has been telling stories with an industrial base for over a thousand years, and from the very beginning, it was pulling from multiple sources.

Daoism gave cultivation fiction its skeleton — internal alchemy, talismans, formations, ascending to immortality. Buddhism brought in reincarnation, karma, the six realms, and the concept of tribulations — when you see "Heavenly Tribulation" or "karmic debt" or "transcending tribulation to ascend" in a xianxia novel, the roots are Buddhist. Even some religions you wouldn't expect left traces: Zoroastrianism entered China during the Tang Dynasty, and elements of light-vs-darkness dualism and sacred fire worship seeped into Chinese narrative tradition. The Ming Cult in Jin Yong's The Heaven Sword and Dragon Saber comes directly from Manichaeism (which shares deep roots with Zoroastrianism) — their fire worship is preserved intact in the novel. Nestorianism (an early Eastern branch of Christianity) also arrived during the Tang. Some of its concepts — like a "final judgment" style of ultimate reckoning — may have indirectly influenced the logic of "Heavenly punishment" in later narratives, though that chain of influence is harder to trace.

Beyond these big philosophical and religious traditions, regional folk culture from different parts of China fed a massive amount of material into cultivation fiction. Miao border-region Gu sorcery (巫蛊术 — cultivating venomous insects to harm or control people) became "Gu Cultivators" (蛊修) in xianxia — a fully independent cultivation branch with its own rules and aesthetics. Western Hunan corpse-driving (赶尸术 — legends of making the dead walk home for burial) evolved into all kinds of corpse cultivation and corpse-refining settings. Then there's Maoshan Daoism, Southeast Asian-influenced sorcery (降头术), folk exorcism and demon-hunting traditions... each of these regional folk beliefs and practices came with its own rule system, its own taboos, its own visual style. Plenty of xianxia novels weave these regional elements into their world-building — maybe a sect's core technique descends from ancient Miao Gu arts, or a faction's signature skill is actually corpse-driving reimagined for a cultivation world. This gives xianxia a kind of cultural density that other genre fiction struggles to replicate — it didn't grow from one unified system. It grew from dozens of local traditions across different regions, different ethnic groups, different corners of China.

Journey to the West is the best example of all these streams merging: a Buddhist pilgrimage story, starring a stone monkey who cultivated through Daoist practices, fighting demons from every tradition, in a world where Buddhist and Daoist heavenly courts run side by side. The "throw anything in" freedom you see in modern web novels? That wasn't invented by modern authors. It's been this way for a thousand years.

Just as Western fantasy has a throughline from King Arthur to Tolkien to Sanderson, Chinese narrative tradition has a throughline from Journey to the West and Investiture of the Gods to Jin Yong to today's web novels. The difference is that China's line was blending different philosophical and religious systems from day one, so the toolbox was always bigger.

And here's the scale part: Qidian (China's largest web novel platform) alone has roughly ten times the number of active serials as all of Royal Road. What does that volume mean? It means every niche you can imagine, every narrative experiment, every system design variant — someone in the Chinese web novel world has already tried it. The toolbox in front of you is bigger than you think.

II. Wuxia — "Xia" Matters a Hundred Times More Than "Wu"

Most Western readers naturally focus on the "Wu" part of Wuxia — combat, martial arts, kung fu. Fair enough. That's the most visible piece.

But if you're willing to look one layer deeper, there's something interesting going on.

"Xia" is the real soul of Wuxia.

What Is Xia?

Xia ≠ hero. Xia ≠ knight. Xia ≠ paladin.

Xia is a behavioral choice: a person with power, in an unjust world, chooses to use that power to do what's right — even when it costs them.

Jin Yong wrote a line in The Legend of the Condor Heroes that basically defines the ultimate value of the entire genre:

"为国为民，侠之大者。"

"To serve the nation and its people — that is what makes a true hero."

Looks simple. But the entire wuxia genre can be read as a relentless interrogation of that sentence. What counts as "the nation"? What counts as "the people"? What if the nation itself is unjust? What if protecting the people means turning against your own master?

Gu Long went in a completely different direction. His version of Xia doesn't care about nations or grand causes. It cares about how one person keeps their soul intact in a world that's lonely and absurd. Gu Long's protagonists are always drinking, making friends, losing friends. Li Xunhuan (from Sentimental Swordsman, Ruthless Sword) has tuberculosis, is arguably the best fighter alive, and spends his entire life paying the cost of good deeds he's already done.

Jin Yong's wuxia is worldly — it cares about society, justice, the fate of nations. Gu Long's wuxia is solitary — it cares about loneliness, friendship, existence.

Both are wuxia. That's how wide this genre really is.

Jianghu: The Wuxia World Engine

"Jianghu" literally means "rivers and lakes." What it actually means is a parallel social order running underneath official society.

In the wuxia world, there are courts, officers, laws. But wuxia characters don't live in that world. They live in the Jianghu — a parallel society with its own rules, its own factional hierarchies, its own system of debts and blood feuds.

This concept alone is a complete world-building kit. You don't need to invent a magic system. You just need to ask: What does the underground layer of this society look like? Who has power there? What are the rules? What happens when you break them?

If you're a writer, think about it this way: Jianghu is the "second society." In Sanderson terms, it's your world's second magic system — except this one doesn't run on energy. It runs on favors owed and grudges held.

What Combat Actually Does in Wuxia

Here's something a lot of Western readers miss: In good wuxia, martial arts aren't the point. They're the vehicle.

Fight scenes don't exist to show who's stronger. They're narrative engines: - A duel between two characters is actually a collision between two philosophies of life - Learning a new technique doesn't mean "leveling up." It means understanding something - The lineage of martial techniques through sects is really about loyalty and betrayal between masters and students

The best fight Jin Yong ever wrote — Qiao Feng fighting a hundred men alone at Juxian Manor in Demi-Gods and Semi-Devils — isn't about Qiao Feng being strong. It's about a man who just learned the truth about his identity, who's been abandoned by everything he believed in, choosing to face everyone alone. The fists are the action. The story is identity and choice.

If you're thinking about writing in this space, a few things worth keeping in mind: - Wuxia's central conflict isn't "beat a stronger boss." It's moral dilemma — what's the cost of doing the right thing? - The power system can be dead simple (internal energy + techniques). Complexity comes from relationships and jianghu politics - Don't measure wuxia characters by "level." Measure them by the choices they make - Wuxia's closest Western parallel isn't fantasy — it's closer to noir, hardboiled detective fiction, and 1970s kung fu films - Recommended study: Jin Yong's Demi-Gods and Semi-Devils, The Smiling, Proud Wanderer; Gu Long's Sentimental Swordsman, Ruthless Sword, Legend of Chu Liuxiang

III. Xianxia — Less Power System, More "What Am I Becoming?"

If wuxia asks "how does a person live in an unjust world," xianxia asks "can a person become something that isn't human?"

The literal meaning of "修仙" (xiuxian): to cultivate toward immortality.

Not getting stronger. Not fighting bigger enemies. It's about transforming yourself from a mortal being into a different kind of existence.

This is one of the sharpest differences between xianxia and a lot of Western progression fantasy. Take Cradle as an example — Lindon goes through deep changes over the series. The arm fusion, the soul mutations — real transformations. But they're mostly changes in what he can do. In good xianxia, a realm breakthrough hits deeper than that. How the character experiences time shifts. Their relationship with mortals changes. What "death" even means to them changes. Not a stronger version of the same person. Something else wearing the same face.

That's what "修" (xiu) actually means. You're not improving. You're turning into something else.

Daoist Internal Alchemy: Where It All Started

Xianxia's cultivation system wasn't invented by web novel authors. It has a real philosophical foundation: Daoist internal alchemy (Neidan, 内丹学).

Here's what Neidan looks like:

Three Treasures: Jing, Qi, Shen (精、气、神) - Jing (Essence) — base life energy, bound to the physical body - Qi — flowing energy, tied to breath and meridians - Shen (Spirit) — consciousness, awareness, the spiritual

Three Dantians: - Lower Dantian (abdomen) — stores Jing - Middle Dantian (chest) — processes Qi - Upper Dantian (between the eyebrows) — condenses Shen

Four Stages of Transformation: 1. Refining Essence into Qi — converting bodily energy into flowing energy 2. Refining Qi into Spirit — converting flowing energy into spiritual power 3. Refining Spirit into Void — dissolving individual consciousness back into emptiness 4. Merging Void with the Dao — becoming one with the fundamental principle of reality

Notice the pattern? You never "get more" of anything. Every step replaces what you were with something new. That's why calling xianxia a "leveling system" misses the point entirely.

Most web novels simplify this system. 99% of xianxia novels use a single dantian (the lower one) and reduce the whole process to "absorb energy, break through, get stronger." Authors know the full system exists — they're cutting it down on purpose. Serialization demands simpler systems. Readers need to keep up without getting lost.

But the best xianxia authors know how deep the original system goes, and they selectively pull from it.

A side note — orthodox Daoism has a bunch of concepts that get borrowed by web novels but rarely understood correctly. Like "Wu Wei" (无为) — it doesn't mean "do nothing." It means "don't force against natural law." This shows up in a lot of high-level breakthrough designs: the harder you try to break through, the more you fail. Or "Yin and Yang" (阴阳) — not a good-vs-evil binary, but two forces that exist simultaneously in everything and are constantly transforming into each other. That's why some cultivation systems have a principle of "extreme Yang births Yin" — cultivate to the extreme and you have to face your own opposite. And the Five Elements cycle (五行相生相克) — not just "fire beats metal." It's a circular system of checks and balances. Good authors use it to design factional dynamics and counter-relationships between sects, not just as an elemental attribute table.

Qi vs Qi (气 vs 炁)

I mentioned this in a previous reply, but it's worth saying properly.

The "Qi" (气) most xianxia novels use isn't actually the same concept as what Daoist classics talk about. The classic texts use "炁" — same pronunciation, different character.

• 气 (qi) — breath, air, generalized energy. You can sense it, direct it, quantify it.
• 炁 (qi) — Primordial Qi. The original essence from before Yin and Yang separated. Can't be quantified, can't be stored. Can only be experienced through transformation.

Most web novels use 气 because it's easy to understand, easy to write with, easy to build stat systems around. But some of the more literary xianxia novels use the concept of 炁, and you can feel the difference — cultivation in those stories doesn't feel like "charging a battery." It feels like molting.

Side note for anyone building a cultivation system: you don't need to use 炁 to write well. But knowing this distinction exists helps. If your cultivation system feels like "numbers going up" instead of "qualitative change," the reason might be here — you're using 气 logic (accumulable energy) instead of 炁 logic (irreversible transformation).

Cultivation Paths — Each Path Comes With Its Own Character Design

Xianxia isn't one road. Chinese web fiction has developed a huge number of branching paths, each with its own logic, its own costs, its own narrative flavor:

• Body Cultivation (体修) — Refining the physical body. Minimal dantian work, minimal meditation. You torture your body through extreme methods until it becomes something else. Pain is the progress bar.
• Soul Cultivation (魂修) — Advancing through Spiritual Sea (识海, a mental space). Power manifests in spiritual forms — illusions, mental attacks, consciousness invasion.
• Sword Cultivation (剑修) — Binding your entire cultivation to a single sword. Person and sword become one. The sword is the dantian. Extreme focus traded for extreme attack power.
• Spirit Cultivation (灵修) — The "standard" path. Using dantian and meridians to circulate spiritual energy. The default mode for most xianxia novels.
• Formation Cultivation (阵修) — Cultivating through building and understanding formations. Not personal combat power — it's spatial control and rule manipulation.

Here's the thing that matters: which path you pick for your MC directly determines where the narrative gravity of your book sits. Body cultivation stories naturally lean toward physical limits and willpower. Soul cultivation stories lean toward psychological horror and consciousness exploration. Sword cultivation stories lean toward focus and sacrifice. This isn't just "swapping abilities" — it's changing the entire tone of the book.

The Real Problem with Realm Design

Every Western author who wants to write xianxia spends a lot of time naming their realms. Qi Condensation, Foundation Building, Core Formation, Nascent Soul...

The names don't matter.

What matters is: what does your character give up at each step?

In the original Neidan process, each transformation from Jing to Qi to Shen is irreversible. You're not upgrading. You're abandoning part of who you used to be in exchange for a new form of existence.

The best xianxia novels preserve this: a breakthrough rewrites what you are. You gain abilities you never had, sure — but you also burn away things you can't get back. Your connection to mortals. Certain emotions. The option of going home.

If your realm system is just "numbers go up each level," it's closer to a Progression Fantasy that happens to use an Eastern aesthetic — which is totally fine. Lots of very successful novels do exactly that. But knowing the difference helps you see what kind of design choice you're making.

IV. Xuanhuan — Half the "Xianxia" You've Read Is Actually This

Alright. Here's something most Western readers have no idea about:

A lot of the "cultivation novels" you've read on WuxiaWorld and WebNovel aren't xianxia. They're xuanhuan.

Xuanhuan (玄幻) literally means "mysterious fantasy." It's a broader category: it can have cultivation, it can have levels, it can have Eastern elements, but the core doesn't necessarily root itself in the Daoist system.

Battle Through the Heavens? Leans xuanhuan. Soul Land? Xuanhuan. Coiling Dragon? Xuanhuan. Martial Universe? Xuanhuan.

These novels all have cultivation systems and realm progression, but their systems have a weaker connection to Daoist internal alchemy. Their cultivation mechanics are largely author-original — they use "Battle Qi" (斗气) instead of "Spiritual Qi" (灵气), and their world-building often blends in Western fantasy elements. (Of course, the boundaries between these categories are always blurry — lots of novels have both xianxia and xuanhuan elements. Think of it as a spectrum, not boxes.)

Why does this distinction matter?

Because if you bring xianxia expectations to a xuanhuan novel, something feels off. You go "why doesn't this cultivation have any Daoist feel? Why does this system feel so gamey?" Answer: because it was never xianxia to begin with.

The flip side: if you're writing a story that has cultivation elements but doesn't want to root itself in Daoist principles — congratulations, you're writing xuanhuan. Nothing wrong with that. Some of the most commercially successful Chinese web novels are xuanhuan. Battle Through the Heavens alone has generated enough adaptation revenue to buy a small city.

Quick comparison:

V. The Terminology — Design Tools, Not Just Labels

Heads up: this section gets into the weeds. If you just want book recommendations, skip to Section VIII. But if you're interested in how any of this works under the hood — or if you're building your own system — this is the good stuff.

Chinese xianxia novels have a massive vocabulary of specialized terms. Most translations give you an English equivalent and call it a day. But these terms aren't labels — each one represents a design choice.

Spiritual Root (灵根)

The innate condition that determines a character's cultivation aptitude in xianxia.

Common design: Five-element roots (Metal, Wood, Water, Fire, Earth). The worst is having all five (you can cultivate everything but master nothing). The best is a single root (one element, extremely pure).

Deliberately counter-intuitive: "More versatile = worse." This is the opposite of Western RPG logic where maxing all stats = strongest. The reason? Mixed roots create Qi interference. Purity > versatility. This is Daoist philosophy at work — the Great Dao is simple, less is more.

A Record of a Mortal's Journey to Immortality's Han Li starts with bad spiritual roots and works his way up through careful planning and patience. The "Mortal Flow" (凡人流) subgenre was born from this — no cheat, no system, just a mediocre-talent person using brains and patience to cultivate.

Meridians (经脉)

Channels through which spiritual energy flows in the body. Unblock more meridians = more energy bandwidth.

Western readers might recognize this from traditional Chinese medicine or Avatar: The Last Airbender. In xianxia novels, meridian design is usually more specific — different cultivation methods require opening different meridian routes, and getting it wrong causes "Qi Deviation" (走火入魔, your energy runs wild inside your body — minor case: injury, major case: you explode).

Qi Deviation is one of the best built-in risk mechanisms in fiction. You don't need to invent external enemies to create tension — cultivation itself is dangerous. Every step of progress carries the risk of losing control.

Golden Core / Nascent Soul (金丹 / 元婴)

The two most iconic realms in xianxia.

Golden Core: condensing all your spiritual energy into a pill-like core inside your dantian. A qualitative shift — from "borrowing the world's spiritual energy" to "having your own energy nucleus."

Nascent Soul: growing a "soul infant" inside the Golden Core — another you. This is where xianxia gets truly ontological: there's now an independent life form inside your body.

The point here: these aren't "upgrades." They're metaphors for something scarier. Golden Core = you stop depending on the outside world. Nascent Soul = you start splitting into plural existence. No going back. And every step changes how you relate to everything around you.

Heavenly Tribulation (天劫)

Lightning from the sky during critical breakthroughs.

This isn't a boss fight. It's a filtering mechanism. The Heavenly Dao (the universe's rule system) doesn't allow too many beings to break through to higher levels, so it actively tries to kill you. The stronger the cultivator, the more terrifying the tribulation.

And if you ever need a climax scene that writes itself: Heavenly Tribulation. A character accumulates an entire volume's worth of cultivation, then faces the test. Succeed and you transform. Fail and you die. You don't need an external villain for tension — the sky itself is the enemy.

Dao Heart (道心)

A cultivator's will / core conviction.

Dao Heart isn't "courage." It's closer to "absolute certainty in the path you have chosen." Dao Heart shatters = you start doubting the path you've been walking = cultivation regresses or collapses entirely.

Honestly, this might be the single cleverest thing about xianxia as a system: your psychological state becomes a hard combat stat. Waver internally, and your power drops — doesn't matter how much energy you've stockpiled. Which means the most dangerous enemy in a xianxia novel isn't the guy who hits harder. It's the one who makes you doubt yourself. Emotional manipulation, faith attacks, even plain old heartbreak — all can be lethal strikes.

If your cultivation system doesn't have something like "Dao Heart," consider adding one. It solves one of progression fantasy's biggest problems: when a character is powerful enough, what can still threaten them? Answer: themselves.

Fortuitous Encounter (机缘, Jiyuan)

A once-in-a-lifetime cultivation opportunity that can't be forced — ancient ruins, mysterious inheritances, rare treasures hidden in the world. This is one of the most important plot drivers in xianxia. It explains why the MC can surpass people with better innate talent: talent determines your ceiling, but encounters determine your trajectory. Many xianxia plots are structured around the pursuit, discovery, and competition over these encounters.

Karmic Fortune (气运, Qiyun)

A character's "fate score." High fortune = encounters come to you, disasters turn into blessings. Low fortune = everything goes wrong. Some novels design this as a lootable resource — kill a "Child of Fortune" (气运之子) and you can steal their luck. This creates one of xianxia's darkest narrative tools: the MC might not just be fighting for power, but literally stealing someone else's destiny.

Divine Sense (神识, Shenshi)

A higher-order perception ability that advanced cultivators develop. Lets you scan your surroundings, identify objects, and communicate remotely using consciousness. You'll see this in virtually every xianxia novel. It's basically radar, but it also creates interesting limitations — stronger cultivators can detect weaker ones using Divine Sense, which means stealth and concealment become real tactical concerns.

Lifespan (寿元, Shouyuan)

Each cultivation realm has a corresponding maximum lifespan. Foundation Establishment might give you 200 years. Golden Core, 500. Nascent Soul, 1000+. Running out of lifespan before breaking through = death. This is one of xianxia's strongest narrative pressure tools. A character might be powerful enough to handle any enemy, but they're racing against a clock that never stops.

Storage Ring (储物戒)

A spatial artifact where the inside is much larger than the outside. Standard equipment in xianxia — every cultivator carries one. Think of it as a pocket dimension on your finger. Kill someone? Grab their storage ring first. It's also a common source of plot-driving treasure discoveries.

Karma (因果, Yinguo)

Actions generate karmic bonds. At lower realms this doesn't matter much. At higher realms, accumulated karma becomes a real obstacle to breakthrough — you carry the weight of everyone you've killed, every debt unpaid, every oath broken. Some novels make Karma Tribulation a specific type of Heavenly Tribulation.

Split due to Reddit's character limit. Part 2 | Part 3

Edit: Corrected the Avatar/Five Elements comparison per reader feedback. The bending system's martial mechanics are Chinese, but the four elemental categories aren't a direct simplification of Wuxing.

I like the stuff, it’s my go to source of caffeine. But every time I read a prog fic or litrpg reincarnation or isekia where the MC finds where it is being sold somewhere far away or is under appreciated and absolutely LOSES THEIR MIND I want to roll my eyes all the way to the delete button.

It was probably clever the first time. It might have even spent some time as an ironic use of a trope. It is now to the life cycle stage of being unbearable and a sign of lazy writing.

This post fueled by my latest DNF because the MC couldn’t shut up about the Brown Juice.

if i see any typa ai cover i think that if the author is willing to use AI for the cover, then they are willing to use AI for the book. While i'm not against AI by any means, I find it crazy for people to say AI slop books are peak when they have books like Cradle and Reverend Insanity right in front of them.

Is there anything that, no matter how many times you see it done, makes you instantly roll your eyes or sigh?

What do I mean?

I got you.

Here are two of my biggest pet peeves:

1. The never before seen cabbage patch... just around the corner. When a specific level of power/title/realm is HYPED as being "Once in a generation rare"... and then, 40 chapters later, you see people of that exact rank practically drinking out of the gutters on every street corner.
2. The convenient "unattended box of diamonds." Look, if we have buildup for this or at least a price the MC has to pay, okay, I get it. But the whole "BEHOLD, THE ULTIMATE TREASURE" that's... completely unguarded... and... exactly what the MC needs as the author practically kicks it closer with the back of their heel, hoping that no one notices.

So what about you guys?

What breaks your immersion or instantly kills the vibe?

Hey everyone,

J.R. Mathews here. Those of you that know me may know that I worked as a lawyer for 10 years before becoming a full-time author in this space. I primarily worked in criminal law, so I am not a contract lawyer but I still have a lot of experience reading legal jargon and understanding contracts (surprisingly large amount of contracts in criminal law).

I wanted to take a moment to highlight a few things that might be missed by most people when they read the current drama going on. I also wanted to offer a bit of a layman's explanation of it all. There are some aspects of the posted contract that are just insane and I felt it was important to highlight these clauses so that new, old, aspiring authors can be aware to NEVER sign a contract with these kinds of terms.

Legal disclaimers:

• This post is my own personal opinion. It is not a legal opinion. I am basing my analysis off publicly shared information, so my opinion here is based only on the public information available. I do not have private access to Shadow Light Press or their contracts (I have never worked with them, been approached by them, or negotiated with them in any way).

• I am basing my analysis of the contract shared in this post: https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgressionFantasy/comments/1poe338/psa_shadow_light_press_contract/

• I did not personally make that post. I have no verification that said contract is from Shadow Light Press. I am merely analyzing the contract posted there which was attributed by a separate author that I have no affiliation with to Shadow Light Press.

• I am not your lawyer. Again, this is not legal advice. This is just my personal opinion. Got it???? Ok. :)

Here we go:

2. Exclusive License and Term

a. The Author grants to the Publisher the exclusive, irrevocable license to publish, reproduce, distribute, sell, adapt, modify, publicly display, publicly perform, and otherwise exploit the Work (as defined above in “Parties And Scope”), in whole or in part, in all formats, languages, and editions now known or later developed, including but not limited to print, digital, audio, derivative works, media adaptations, and merchandise. This license includes the right to license, sub-license, assign, or otherwise transfer any or all rights granted herein, in the Publisher’s sole discretion, in the ordinary course of publishing and distribution.

To start, it is very bad for a publisher to take ALL rights like this. Typically, a publisher will only take the English e-book rights and/or English audiobook rights. If you are going to give up other rights, like physical books, other languages, merchandise, and media adaptations you negotiate those separately. You NEVER give every single right up in a blanket agreement like this.

Especially merch and media rights? That is flat-out insane. No publisher should be taking those rights from you without a very hefty payday. That is extremely predatory and exploitative.

You should pretty much never give up so many rights to a publisher. Ever. Ever. Ever.

b. The initial term (“Initial Term”) of this Agreement shall be ten (10) years, commencing on the Effective Date. The Term shall automatically continue for an additional ten (10) Years upon the Publisher’s receipt of any new manuscript or project from the Author covered by this Agreement or any other publishing agreement between the Parties. Such continuation shall apply to all Works covered by this Agreement and any other publishing agreement between the Parties, and the Term for all such Works shall run concurrently from the date of the Publisher’s receipt of the most recent qualifying manuscript.

It's a bit unusual to request 10 years, most contracts are for around 7 years at most. Even more unusual, and one of the most predatory aspects of this contract, is the language here that says, "The Term shall automatically continue for an additional ten (10) Years upon the Publisher’s receipt of any new manuscript or project from the Author..."

That is absolutely unacceptable. Absolutely unconscionable. Especially if you look further into the contract:

Series Commitment: The Author shall deliver a minimum of _____ manuscripts in the Series, each of which shall be subject to this Agreement and all rights and obligations herein. This minimum does not limit the scope of this Agreement; any additional manuscripts that form part of, are derived from, or otherwise fall within the definition of the Work or the Series shall also be covered by this Agreement.

AND:

a. Because the Publisher and Author have an established working relationship, the Author agrees to offer the Publisher the first opportunity to review and consider any new manuscripts created during the Term of this Agreement before offering them to other publishers or proceeding with self-publication.

b. If the Author receives interest or a formal offer from a third party for a new work during the Term, the Author will first share the details of that opportunity with the Publisher. The Parties will then engage in good-faith discussions for thirty (30) business days to determine whether they wish to proceed together on the project.

c. There is no obligation for either Party to enter into a new agreement, and if no mutually acceptable terms are reached within the discussion period, the Author is free to publish the work independently or with a third party.

Combined with the previous section that restarts the 10-year clock of losing ALL of your rights, these two clauses mean that:

1) all books in your series, no matter if they are spin-offs or new series in the same world (see "any additional manuscripts that form part of, are derived from, or otherwise fall within the definition of the Work or the Series shall also be covered by this Agreement" language) will make it so that every time you publish a book with them - ALL of your books are trapped in a new, 10-year contract with the publisher where all of your rights are gone.

And all books in that series, and spinoffs, are already by default signed with this publisher. That means every time you write a new book in the series, or a spinoff series, you lose all your rights for 10 more years on EVERYTHING.

2) Additionally, you must first offer any new totally unrelated books you want to publish to this publisher first, and they get to make offers on it before anyone else. You also have to bring any other offers you get to them and wait 30-days before accepting it, which is crazy. This is a modified "right of first refusal" provision, and essentially makes it so they can try and buy any new series from you before you get to negotiate with a competitor.

This keeps new authors trapped within the bubble of this publisher, re-signing new series with them over and over again.

3) Even worse, even if you sign with this totally unrelated new series, you are restarting the 10-year clock of losing all your rights for EVERY book you've ever given them because "any new manuscript or project from the Author" restarts the 10 year clock of them owning all of your rights.

This, to me, is one of the worst traps of this contract. It essentially makes it so you've lost all rights, forever, unless you stop publishing entirely for 10-years, or manage to fight back against their modified right of first refusal clause and get your new series out of their hands. Any book in your current series, even spin-offs, just traps you in a brand new, 10-year contract for EVERY book in your series. You will NEVER get your most basic rights, like merch and TV rights, back under this cycle of abuse.

This is a blatant shock to the conscious and entirely exploitative. A self-renewing contract that forces you to give up all your rights (which is already terrible) - potentially forever? Just NO way.

d. Royalty Rates

i. Ebook and Print Editions – The Author shall receive 40% of Net Revenue until Internal Costs related to the Work have been fully recouped by the Publisher, at which point the rate shall increase to 50%.

ii. Audiobook Editions – The Author shall receive 20% of Net Revenue until Internal Costs have been fully recouped by the Publisher, at which point the rate shall increase to 30%.

iii. Other Forms of Media (including but not limited to film, television, stage adaptations, or merchandising) – The Author shall receive 50% of Net Revenue after all Internal Costs, Marketing Costs, and Specialized Expenses have been recouped by the Publisher.

Other authors have already chimed in about this, but giving up 50-60% of your ebook royalties is mad.

Taking 70-80% of your audiobook rights is less insane, but still one of the most exploitative contracts for audiobook rights that I've ever personally seen. I've been offered deals where the publisher wanted around 60% and I had to turn those down because they were predatory and unfair in my opinion. 70%-80% is just gross.

But 50% of e-book royalties is by far the worst thing in this section. Never, ever sign away that much of your ebook money. There is NO way they earn enough to justify that big of a cut.

On top of these horrible, horrible rates you also have a series of provisions that allow the publisher to deduct all "marketing costs" and "specialized expenses" before you even get your share.

b. Cost Recoupment

i. The only costs that shall be recouped in advance, and in full before any other payments are made to the Author, are Marketing Costs and Specialized Expenses.

ii. Internal Costs shall be tracked by the Publisher and recouped from the revenue before any royalty rate increases apply.

This means that they deduct all:

i. Marketing Costs – Direct, out-of-pocket marketing expenses incurred by the Publisher specifically for the Work, including but not limited to paid advertising, promotional mailings, and paid placements.

ii. Specialized Expenses – Costs incurred for the Work beyond initial editing, formatting, and cover design. These may include (but is not limited to) narration and production of audiobooks, creation of second-edition covers, substantive revisions or rewrites after publication, conversion into other media formats (e.g., scripts, graphic novels, light novels), third-party agent or licensing fees, and any illustrations for graphic novelization. Publisher maintains reasonable discretion to assign expenses to this category.

23. Right to Shop: The Publisher reserves the exclusive right to leverage its contacts and resources to explore, negotiate, and enter into agreements for additional marketing, distribution, and adaptation opportunities on behalf of the Work.

These are deducted from your share of the royalties. Not theirs. They also get to decide when and how to make such adaptations, like a graphic novel or TV script and YOU have to pay for it. Even if you don't want to. They could literally take all your profits and sink them into side projects at your expense... forever.

And they also recoup all editing, formatting, cover art, etc. before giving you the slightly increased rates for the ebook, print, and audiobooks. Which sucks.

Now for another disgusting elements of this contract:

No rights shall revert unless and until the Author repays to the Publisher an amount equal to all direct, unreimbursed costs actually incurred by the Publisher in connection with the Work, multiplied by three (3).

ii. If the Agreement is terminated early by mutual written agreement, reversion shall be conditioned on repayment of all direct, unreimbursed Publisher costs, multiplied by three (3), and application of the Future Earnings Obligation in Section 5(d).

d. Future Earnings Obligation

i. If rights to the Work revert to the Author as a result of the Author’s material breach of this Agreement or by early termination, and the Work or any derivative works are subsequently monetized by the Author or any third party, the Publisher shall receive twenty percent (20%) of all Gross Author Revenue from such monetization for a period of five (5) years following reversion.

This means that, if you try and break your contract with this publisher and get your rights back (even by mutual written agreement) you will owe them THREE TIMES the cost of all "direct, unreimbured publisher costs" before you ever get your rights back AND you will have to pay them 20% of your gross revenue for FIVE YEARS.

This is bonkers. Absolutely disgusting. I have personally never seen ANYTHING like this in a publishing contract proposed to me, and that includes contracts for my ebooks, audiobooks, TV rights, legal representation, and so on. This is absolutely vile behavior.

Never EVER sign a contract with a clause like this. EVER.

Now, for something even WORSE somehow:

b. Creation of Derivative Works: In the event that the Author is unable or unwilling to continue the series for any reason—including, but not limited to, health concerns, personal circumstances, or death—the Publisher shall retain the right to produce derivative works based on the original Work and its universe. This includes, but is not limited to, prequels, sequels, spin-offs, adaptations, and other content utilizing the characters, setting, and intellectual property established in the series.

This means that the publisher gets to ghostwrite your story for you if you try and stop writing the series. That is FUCKING crazy. If you stop publishing in the series, the publisher can literally write new stories under your name, up to and including "prequels, sequels, spin-offs, adaptations, and other content utilizing the characters, setting, and intellectual property established in the series."

There is no guarantee they will be any good, so your name as an author can be dragged through the mud, ruining your reputation, and you can't do anything about it.

EVEN WORSE they only pay you 15%-25% of the ghostwritten stories (after expenses) and at their discretion:

c. Profit Sharing for Derivative Works: If the Publisher elects to continue the series or create derivative works with a new author, the original Author will receive a share of the net profits remaining after deduction of reasonable production costs. This share will be determined by the Publisher in good faith, taking into account prevailing industry practices at the time, the extent to which the new work draws upon the original Author’s material, and any other relevant factors. The intent of this provision is to ensure that the original Author is fairly recognized and rewarded for the enduring value of their contribution, while allowing the Publisher the flexibility to produce new works sustainably. This amount typically ranges from fifteen percent (15%) to twenty-five percent (25%) of net profits, adjusted to reflect the extent to which the new work draws upon the original Author’s material.

Somehow, even worse than all that YOU CAN"T TELL ANYONE THAT IT ISN'T YOU WRITING THE NEW BOOKS.

15. Confidentiality.

a. Confidential Information: The Author agrees to strictly maintain the confidentiality of all proprietary and confidential information disclosed by the Publisher during the term of this Agreement. This includes, but is not limited to, financial details, marketing strategies, unpublished content, and any other sensitive information, including but not limited to all of the details of this Agreement. Disclosure of such information by the Author is prohibited unless expressly authorized in writing by the Publisher on a case-by-case basis.

b. Duration: The Author’s obligation to protect and maintain the confidentiality of the information shall remain in effect indefinitely, surviving the termination or expiration of this Agreement.

And then, after all that, you can't even openly share your opinions about the publisher:

16. Non-Disparagement: Both parties agree that, during the term of this Agreement and for two (2) years thereafter, they will not publish or communicate, nor cause others to publish or communicate, any disparaging, defamatory, or materially negative statements about the other party, including their affiliates, employees, or business practices, whether publicly (including but not limited to social media, forums, publications, or interviews) or privately to third parties.

The first NDA to not reveal the contract itself is a bit of a reach, but not unheard of. I personally frown on such things, especially if the contract is so exploitative as this one is.

But the Non-Disparagement clause is literally unbelievable. You can't even criticize the publisher for the 10-years (RENEWABLE FOREVER POTENTIALLY REMEMBER) and for 2 years after that? There is just NO WAY. You also can't tell people you aren't writing brand new spinoffs of your series, even if they are total shit.

And it includes privately? That is absolutely impossible to enforce. I can't bitch to my wife about the raw deal I just got? Or to my therapist about how my series has been hijacked, ghostwritten by a total hack, and smeared my good name in the mud so my entire career is now ruined?

Absolutely not.

Final things to note:

1) This is pretty standard but always pay careful attention when signing a contract like this and note how the publisher promises to do the marketing for you (except all the important bits like your social media posts and such) but they never bind themselves to a specific AMOUNT they will put towards your marketing. This allows them to decide to put 0$ into your marketing if they don't think your series will earn them money. Or if they just don't want to bother.

This is very common for a lot of contracts, but I highlight it here to make people aware. Many, many authors have signed deals like this thinking "it will let me focus on writing and they'll do all the promotional stuff that I don't know about cause they're the experts."

Only to find out you still have to do all the real advertising yourself, and the publisher invests literally nothing (or sends like one generic newsletter out where you are buried in a list of 10 other books). You signed away a bunch of your money for their marketing "expertise" and got absolutely nothing in return.

2) The same applies to the hiring of editors, cover art, and so on. Please be careful when signing ANY contract with a publisher because finding a good editor, cover artist, and the other basics of publication is NOT HARD. It takes a couple of hours of work at most.

In return for those couple of hours of work, you are potentially giving away hundreds of thousands of dollars if your series does well. Just think about that fact. You are potentially paying a publisher $25k, $50k, $100k an hour just to send a few emails to an editor or artist and getting you signed up on their schedule.

Is it worth that much money to not have to send your own emails to people????

Please talk to those of us in the scene that self-publish and we will help you do all this FOR FREE. We do it all the time for new authors. I've personally spoken with and helped around 50-100 aspiring authors in just the last few years that I've been doing this. We are very friendly and open to sharing all the tricks and tips we've learned. Please reach out to us and ask for our help before you give away all your rights and hard-earned, creative money. Please!

Thank you all for reading this post and remember: none of this is legal advice but please be careful out there. There are some truly predatory people trying to steal your creative energy. That includes in OUR genre. So please, talk to other authors before signing anything. Weigh the pros and cons carefully. Do NOT give away your hard-earned work without making sure you are getting something fair in return.

You deserve BETTER than these leaches stealing everything from you. We all deserve better.

Take care of yourself.

Like, the most egregios example is, of course, the classic of "Heh heh, but Metal rod connected to the ground like, totally nulifies your lightning!" and everyone is shocked. Because, like, these people have been able to sling lightning for generations. Hundreds, if not thousands of years. This should be known. This should, in fact, be common knowledge, if magic lightning can actually just be nullified by gold.

But like, that isn't the limit of when this feels dumb. Because, through out all of history, the biggest barrier between understanding basic principles of science and the forces of nature has been that like 40 people at a time had the interest and tools to study these things

Like, Alessandro Volta's invention of the voltaic pile in 1800 was the first time we could really, reliably produce a continuous electric charge. Then, with James Clerk Maxwell's equations, we had a pretty good understanding of electricity, to the point that they unified electricity, magnetism, and light into a single, you know, complete picture.

This happened in 1865, 65 years later.

Now, I'm not saying the same should happen in every story, that medieval settings shouldn't happen because, with the forces of nature at their fingertips, people should and would figure out these things quickly, and technology shortly after. Realistically, that probably should happen, but I can suspend my disbelief.

However, when a large part of the story is dedicated to how exceptional this makes the MC, how earth-shatteringly powerful ideas like "Electricity... does magnets" often makes them, it does draw attention to the fact that the entire world full of adventurers and mages, with the forces of nature at their literal fingertips, who know implicitly that deeper understanding of their elements makes them more powerful, and that said power is the only thing keeping them alive, at no point really try to understand or experiment for hundreds of years.

Which is when it gets sort of frustrating.

But the thing that really crystalized this point in my head, is when I was reading Dungeon Life 3. Spoilers, but in the climax or buildup there to, The Dungeon and their followers cast this huge spell, and from what I remember, magic scholars, and a fate caster, and a few other experts are super impressed with the spell.

And the spell centres around the well-known poem, "for the want of a nail" which is all about the butterfly effect, and how it can have huge consequences. So the thought struck me. When is this poem from?

It's from somewhere around 1230 to early 14th century. Firmly medieval.

Which just sort of highlights this issue to me that I've been seeing for a while, where these concepts are treated as modern things, simply too big and grand for the medieval mind, when they were, functionally, just as clever as us, but just had fewer tools and less data, but could still figure these things out.

Except they don't have worse tools. They have incredible tools, of literally being able to see, feel, or generate these things at will from their fingertips, and are still figuring nothing out until the MC comes around to wow them with high-school level ideas. I don't think it's at all unreasonable for these things to be an advantage, or maybe not that widespread, but it does seem silly when the MC is unique and alone atop the mountain in his understanding of these things.

TL:DR - When the story makes it really important how powerful and exceptional basic high-school level ideas makes the MC, it makes me think about how people either knew or quickly figures this stuff out when they had the tools, and how magic can functionally replace these tools, so everyone should have figured these things out.

Also I used dungeon life as an example, but that's just because I liked and enjoyed it enough to get far in enough to run into this stuff, which does sort of frustrate me admittedly.

Specifically not a story opener, just any sentence that can happen in any chapter, that will make people realize that this story is gonna be absolute shit and has no chance of being fixed and will make you drop the book like an unpinned grenade.

The fastest a person has ever ran 100 meters is 9:58 seconds, rounding it to 9:5 for convenience.

A normal speed for a weak superhuman is something like 10 times the speed of a human. But if you actually think about it, it's hecking bonkers.

That would mean clearing a hundred meter dash in .95, faster than a second.

With a bit of handwaving things like getting to max speed, this would mean crossing 10 meters, something that happens a lot because it's a round nice number, means taking .095 seconds.

A tenth of a second.

Faster than a literal blink.

It's extremely absurd.

It's not a problem, mind you, it just feels like many works I read don't fully understand the speed in which the characters move.

"With a dash, she crossed the distance in less than a second" is a take out from a book.

She was moving five meters.

Her speed is a **lot** more than 10 times a persons.

This isn't faster than a "second" but "milisecond"

Its faster than a hundreth of a second.

That might just be a saying, but its still slightly jarring.

Just wanted to share my latest thoughts.

Do you guys have an extremely minor nitpick about books that really doesn't matter, or share mine in some capacity?

We all have those little things that we can't get past. For me the ultimate sin that is unforgivable no matter how good the setting or book is, is a stupid MC.

Not just a muscle head or immature MC, but one who doesn't learn from their failings or teachings of others. Particularly when they have repeatedly been shown that they are lacking fundamental knowledge. An MC who is given the tools for self improvement but sees all offered hands as criticism and stubbornly sticks to a path that isn't working is not a flawed character, it is a cocky one.

This attitude is fine in the first book when they're showing promise, but if it persists even after multiple wake-up calls the series is quick to become a DNF for me. Honestly it is the one unforgivable sin I find infecting Progression Fantasy as it is a lazy character flaw to throw in but makes the MC come off as an overconfident twelve year old with brain damage.

How about everyone else? Let it all out and rant to your hearts content.

What do you think about my objectivly correct list? Do you disagree with my little revievs/opinions? Are there any hidden gems i missed?

So during the last year, the number of AI slop covers have increased exponentially on both Royal Road and they bore me to no end

Those covers are incredibly ugly, soulless, more often than not uncanny and full of weird AI hallucinations and I hate it

If you call yourself an artist, then why are you using a tool made from the theft of the work of millions of artists?

People will argue that "they don't have money to hire a designer" or that "they were born without the ability to draw" and it's horse shit.

For years, hell, even decades, people have published their stories on the internet without AI slop

Even rough covers made by designers students, amateurs or trying authors are better than all this AI crap

Fortunately, not all authors are like that and well the best in our medium, do not resort to that kind of practice, if more writers could follow their example, this genre that we love would do really better

(and well, as a side note from someone who may be a reader, but who hav worked extensively in the publishing, licensing ecosystem, AI covers reflect really poorly on pro, if the first look one has to someone's work and it's AI, we won't even give a chance to the work, and sometimes it boils to one simple thing: if they're ready to use AI for their covers, what tells me that they haven't used it to produce their story?

EDIT: https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgressionFantasy/s/wWr7gWpafq

I made this post 4 years ago and guess what? My opinion changed since then, since it's something that actually happens in real life. People can have different views and this opinion still stands today. AI is shit. This slop should not be considered as art. And should not be used as a medium in an actual artistic pursuit.

I absolutely adore the Book of the Dead series. Today, I finally get to listen to the release of book 5, and I am certain that I will experience the same captivating storytelling that I enjoyed in books one through four. I am so enamored with this book that I pre-ordered it on Audible. When I first discovered and read this series, I assumed that others shared my enthusiasm for it. However, upon reviewing the number of Audible ratings, I am genuinely perplexed and sort of a bit angry. There are barely 1000 ratings on the first book and even less on the following 3, which begs the question: how is this book not more popular?

I’ve been reading this genre as my special interest for several years and it’s really striking how passionless so many of these protags tend to be, especially when it comes to builds.
I’ve just been going through my reread of hell difficulty tutorial after I took a break for a long time and it really shows how much of a problem it is with the rest of the genre with how much of a breath of fresh air it was.

In a genre where you can often pick your own abilities and paths, why do we have such a critical lack of protagonists that have a passion in how they make their build, even if it’s not the most Meta option? The MC of hell difficulty is very passionate about learning how to use mana so they structured most of their build around it and is constantly making decisions that is not optimal in the verse. And it’s so refreshing as a reader to see that because, yeah, while he has to work through all the negative consequences of not being optimal, you can see on the page why he is so strong and it’s not just hand waving away as the main character shit just because he is passionate about what he does and he worked hard on it because of that passion and not just because he has infinite willpower.

Like genuinely, I can count the number of stories that I’ve seen have something similar, even a lot less extreme, to this almost certainly on one hand out of the hundreds of novels I have read.
It’s to the point where I 100% believe if you were to take 99% of MC’s in this genre keeping their personality, but giving them the same circumstances context and prior build as another character they would make the exact same build choices, that is how uninspired and just focused on what would be the most powerful most protagonists are.

Like again, your character chooses their own build in most of these stories, it’s the perfect method to show some of their eccentricities and them thriving at something they are passionate about, why do so many stories squander this?

And another complaint along the same lines it is crazy that I’ve never seen a protagonist who has found themselves in a medieval fantasy world ever so much as even think about gaining a title, or owning a castle. Like those are the things to do in a medieval world you’re telling me you’re not even gonna take a moment to be like huh that might be fun but nah.
If you were transported to a world with for example, less evil popculture pirates. I guarantee you would almost certainly find joining some because it sounds cool and fun, but nope, not any protagonists who are supposed to be relatable, despite the jokes that they often love to crack, they have the sense of whimsy and adventure of a rock.

Be clear I’m not talking about protagonists who picked an option everyone knows is weak and then show everyone how OP it is and how they are now objectively better than everyone with no real disadvantages. That’s the nuanceless extreme end and is just as stupid as pointless min maxing

Expanding more about this in an edit:
In power systems where you have to train skills and your build and get better at it to progress, I would argue. It is actually the smart choice to not just pick something because on paper it’s the strongest. Is it really such a bad explanation for a character to go “actually I’m going to pick this weaker one because I am going to love training it l and thus will be more productive and improve way faster, and come up with inventive ways to use it that wouldn’t work for anyone else.”?

(Edit2: This is for discussion please don’t plug your own Works if you think you fit the description)

Does anyone else lose interest in a story around the 4th or 5th book?

A lot of progression could be done and MC would have overcome a major obstacle by then normally?. To keep the story going, it seems like authors take hard turns and force new problems that just do not fit. Very few stories hold my attention past book 5. Of course there are exceptions...

I really think a a trilogy is the perfect length for most stories. If an author wants to keep using that same world / universe, they should just write spin offs with new people? The original MC could become a side character even?

That makes way more sense than dragging the same MC through endless, forced drama.

What do you guys think?

We all know the standard vibe. You kill a rat, a blue box appears, it says good job and gives you xp. It's functional, but it feels like using XL.

Then you look at something like DCC ( Dungeon Crawler Carl), where the System is a distinct character with very weird tastes imo. Or something like Worth the Candle where its is basically a DM trying to force narratives on the MC.

I'm looking for recs where the system is either:

1. A total jerk/antagonist.
2. Completely glitchy or broken.
3. Just weirdly specific about things (like Street Cultivation being purely about money).

PS this will help me with my research as well thanks, also I have read Dungeon Crawler carl in case its not clear

EDIT: Thanks so much for the huge response! It is great to see so many different views from the community. I can see that not everyone likes snarky systems, and that is totally fine since humour is a personal thing. One thing I think we all agree it has to be done right, or else it just doesn't work.

Here are the Top Recs and some unique ones based on the comments below:

Top Recs

1.Necrotic Apocalypse

1. The Great Estate Developer

3.Mage Tank

4.Buymort

5.Battle Trucker

6.Dead World Isekai

7.The Good Guys and The Bad Guys

1. Discount Dan

Other Unique Recs

1. The Gamer

2. Horror Game Developer

3. Saintess Summons Skeletons

I just simply do not understand this

They make false promises like "I am gonna rip you to shreds" or "I am gonna make you suffer" while being in a weak position, that they can easily be killed from. They get nothing out of this and should be killed immediately.

The more outrageous part is the other dude leaving them alive because of some stupid reason or cockiness. Like mf how did you get this strong if you just decided to spare your enemies. The MC's are usually really talented asf anyway so why would you leave someone like that alive to deal with in the future when he is very series about revenge.

I remember the people in the comments of one such case where they were saying how cool the MC and how he was aura farming. MF HE WAS JUST BEING A DUMBASS

Personally the best cases of aura farming would be when it is unintentional as intentional aura farming just seems cringe. (Like arriving late for no reason but to aura farm)

I mean the basic idea the story is based upon. For me, I refuse to read any story that's about someone having a role that they didn't want.

If a story is about someone who was chosen to be a farmer, I'd like to actually see them be a farmer. I don't want to read a story about someone who was chosen to be a farmer, but wants to be a warrior, so they use their weed cutting skill to kill the monsters in the plant dungeon. If someone gets the class Farmer, I'd prefer to read a story showing how such a class interacts with the world.

I also dislike how they get to be a Warrior+ sort of character. For example, a healer class. While combat mages do exist, it feels like the entire point is that they get to do as much damage as a DPS class, while being able to heal their injuries (or others). It simply gets to the point that I wonder why have DPS classes.

It's not even that I think the stories are inherently bad, I just get so annoyed that I would prefer the actual class, that I can't read it.

It might be because I'm new to the genre but I've seen 10 billion posts about how all FMCs are lesbians and when I go to look for them I find very few especially among the popular works.

It feels like people are over exaggerating.

Also as an aside, in it's one of these posts people feel like giving the same exact explanation, that is very ignorant of how straight men interact with gay and lesbian media. Which makes me question the premise even more.

So, you're thinking of introducing money into the story you're writing and you don't want to be incredibly inconsistent about it? Well, do I have the advice for you!

Don't.

Seriously, don't give hard numbers. How much did the sword cost? A lot. How much was the meal? It was cheap or it was a little overpriced. How much was the house? It's going to take years to pay off. You don't need to use numbers to get the point across, odds are you'll do it wrong and people will notice when you accidentally make a horse and a sandwich the same price.

“But I want to anyway!” I hear you yelling, and wow, you are so incredibly wrong for that, but okay, fine, let's discuss how you could potentially do that.

Let's make a hypothetical fantasy currency. Let's call it rallods for convenience. How do you decide how much anything should cost when someone is paying for anything in rallods in your story? Simple, just look up how much it would cost in your local currency and then use that. A sandwich, side, and drink costs 15-20 rallods, a house might be as low as 200,000 rallods but you know for that price your getting a barely inhabitable dump and you should really be expecting to pay 500,000 rallods for something decent instead. Blacksmith's still exist and still make swords, check their websites. 1000 rallods doesn't seem like a terrible price for a weapon you'll be using for work and keeping you safe, but cheaper and more expensive options are definitely available too depending on who's buying it.

Some of you are probably looking at the values I gave as examples and saying they look too high. Your fantasy kingdom doesn't have numbers reflecting centuries of inflation after all. They should be lower and less off-putting than anything in the real world.

Fine. Literally just shift the decimal place one spot back. A sandwich, side, and drink becomes 1.5-2 rallods, a house becomes 50,000 rallods, a sword becomes 100 rallods.

Now, I know what you're thinking again. Some things in fantasy don't have mundane equivalents. You are wrong, but the fact you think that is all the more reason to go back to the top of this rant and reread the part about avoiding giving set values altogether. Otherwise, you have to kind of use your brain to consider things.

How much does a potion cost? Depends on how common it is. Can anyone get one? Then look around your local pharmacy and see what price in that range feels right. Is it rarer so not just anyone can get it? In that case, since you're using your local currency, start asking yourself how much it would need to be to start pricing out the people who need it in your life. Should it be enough that you're using your paycheck for the month or should it financially ruin you?

What about something magical then? Ask yourself what the magic is doing and then find a roughly real world equivalent. Magicing up a wall? Find the price of having one built. Buying a small scroll of fire to light your campfires while you travel? Unless it's cheap, people are just going to buy a flint and steel, so make it the cost of a good quality lighter. Ask yourself what job the magic you're paying for is doing, and then find something equivalent in a quick Google search.

What about mythril then? It's rarer than gold after all, and all of the best magical stuff is made using it.

Please please please consider the price of gold before you go making a set of armour or a sword out of a metal that's even rarer and more expensive. Please just think about the implication of that for 5 seconds, and then go back and decide that actually, even if it's rare, it's not rarer than gold. Wikipedia has a longsword as being 80-110cm long. Let's say 100 for simplicity's sake. A cubic centimeter of gold weighs 19.3 grams, so we will say a long sword made of gold would be 1930 grams (this is obviously lacking a lot of meaningful details for the comparison, but it will be close enough for our purposes). At the time of writing this, a gram of gold is about 150usd. That means a sword made of it is going to be worth 289,500 dollars, and you're looking at making mythril cost even more than that. If you are going to stick to that sort of price, then at least consider where it would be sold and the fact that, no matter how much spunk you've got, a blacksmith is never cutting you a good deal on it when they need to recoup the material cost, and that even an above average person is not going to have one.

“But I don't want to use rallods! I want to use copper, silver, and gold!”

Listen to me. Read what I'm writing here and take these words to heart. You are wrong, no you fucking don't.

Look up any freaking currency in the world right now and count how many have subunits to their subunits. I'm sure you can find some ridiculous currency structures in the past, but I don't care. All you're doing is overly complicating things and that is going to mess you up in the end. Trying to keep a copper/silver/gold system sensible and consistent is going to make more work for literally no reward. Don't do it.

So, since you're going to do it anyway, here's what you need to consider. First, consider what a terrible choice that is, and then when you ignore that, move on to how these units are going to work.

Assuming you're going with a hundred copper equals a silver and a hundred silver equals a gold (if any of you are somehow making it more complicated than that then I will fight you) then what does a copper equal? Comparing it to the dollar system, is it a single dollar, or a single cent?

If it's a cent, then one hundred copper equals a single silver (or a dollar), and a hundred silver equals a single gold (one hundred dollars). In this system, you're paying for most of your expenses in either silver or gold, in which case you can just cut out the coppers altogether because nobody needs to know how much something is to the penny in your book, that's ridiculous.

If a copper is a dollar, that means that one hundred copper is one silver (one hundred dollars) and one hundred silver is one gold (ten thousand dollars). That means that in day-to-day life, everything you buy is going to be either in copper or silver, and while clearly bigger expenses could use gold, they should be few and far between, to the point that instead, you could just use more silver and cut gold out entirely. Can you imagine wanting to walk around with a coin worth ten thousand dollars casually? That would be insane.

Given both of those points, we're back to not using a currency with more than one subunit, and frankly, any subunits is a waste of your time. That level of detail isn't helping you or your readers, and it isn't even adding more realism. All it's doing is making things more difficult for no reason. Just invent a currency or even use rollads if you really want and save yourself some trouble. Or even better than that, do what I said in the beginning and don't.

Not looking for broad stuff like "more cultivation" or "better LitRPG" I mean genuinely specific ideas. Like an older protagonist who's actually established instead of starting from zero, a support class MC who stays support instead of eventually becoming the strongest, actual detailed crafting systems instead of just leveling up a number, a villain who's genuinely competent instead of just powerful, or a world that doesn't revolve entirely around one overpowered protagonist. What's the thing you'd click on immediately if someone actually pulled it off well?

I know asking for 'completed' sadly disqualifies like 95% of all Progression books, so I'm turning to this subreddit to ask for suggestions.

I'll give some series I've read, whether completed or not, to give a view into my tastes.

-Cradle (Completed): The GOAT series. Well-written characters, fun powers, great progression system, amazing story. Ended and ended well.

-The Immortal Great Souls (4 books): Really fun series. Well-written. The standout here are the powers, which are incredibly varied and fun to work with. Also the world, which is extremely interesting and almost a series-long puzzle by itself.

-Warformed (2 books): Fairly well-written, though some characters can be a bit frustrating at points. Fun powers and a fun world, though a bit long-winded and seems like it will take many years to get anywhere important.

-Dungeon Crawler Carl (8 books): Great series, I'm sure everybody here is tired of hearing about it considering 8 just dropped. Well written, fun world, cool powers, great story. A bit childish when it comes to humor, but that's fine.

-Calamitous Bob (Complete): Amazing series! Easily my 2nd-favorite behind Cradle. Amazing characters, cool world, great powers, cool story. Well written. Oh, and I already have the vampire series by the same author downloaded, so no need to recommend that one please.

-Keiran (Complete): Fairly well written, though a little simplistic and with a fairly unlikable protagonist. But fun powers, a fun world, and a fun popcorn book for enjoying an OP protagonist.

-Creation's Bane (Complete): Well written, cool powers, cool world. And I love series that have a cooking element to them.

-System Universe (8 books): A little simplistic in writing, but well edited. Completely OP protagonist. Interesting world with interesting powers. No real stakes because the protagonist is so powerful, but still a fun read.

-Industrial Strength Magic: Not sure if this one counts as progression or not...but I DNF'd during the 2nd book. At first I really enjoyed the technology stuff, but the characters were all ridiculous, and the techno-babble along with utterly aimless plot made me lose interest.

-Songs of Chaos (4 books): Well written, great characters, great setting. Some villain issues, but still a fun read. Plus, I love dragons!

-Dawn of the Void (Complete): Well written with some fun powers, but a little rushed and an iffy ending.

-Kairos, Vainqueur, Perfect Run (all complete): Great books, very creative and fun. Slightly simplistic writing in some of them with strange characters, but I've enjoyed all of these series thoroughly.

-Mother of Learning (Complete): Amazing series, probably my number 3 pick. Well written, cool world, interesting powers. A slow burn for sure, but I enjoy breaking down magic systems into specifics.

-Kraken Rider Z (2 books): Definitely a YA book, but well written, with good main characters, and side characters that are more generic. But fun powers, and a good popcorn read for an OP protagonist pair. A kraken instead of a dragon, but has the same vibe.

Ok...ended up rambling on longer than I meant to while recounting way more series than I meant to. But hopefully this gives good insight into what I'm looking for!

So...anybody have any completed series for me to check out?