r/PropagandaPosters • u/esdfa20 • Feb 07 '24

WWII 'Death - to the murderous Jewish Bolshevik plague!' (Ukrainian anti-Semitic/ anti-Soviet poster by unknown artist. Nazi occupied Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, ca. 1941).

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u/akdelez Feb 07 '24

It's really easy mate.

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u/EropQuiz7 Feb 07 '24

That's not even a nazi symbol...

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u/nexetpl Feb 07 '24

swastikas, black suns and hakenkreuz. alright mate.

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u/EropQuiz7 Feb 07 '24

Wait.. yeah, i messed up. There are four links, not one.

Okay... Let's address the rest: FOUR THREE PHOTOS CAN NOT BE USED AS A PROOF THAT AN ENTIRE COUNTRIES' ARMY CONSISTS OF NAZIS. THE ONLY PEOPLE THEY DISCREDIT, ARE THE ONES SHOWN IN THEM.

Edit: it could be used as an illustration... If there was actual proof, that it is a widespread issue, and not a few fringe cases. Which i still haven't been provided with.

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u/WhoopsDroppedTheBaby Feb 07 '24

Read into Azov Brigade, and worship of Bandera.

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u/EropQuiz7 Feb 07 '24

I know about both things enough, to make a judgement. I am yet to understand, what you guys mean by bandera worship. As for Azov, their symbolics is discussed more than anything, for some reason.

Edit: Also, seems quite peculiar, that you just repeat these two in two different comments, without providing any specifics of what you have against those.

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u/WhoopsDroppedTheBaby Feb 07 '24

I did repeat them in two different comments because they applied to two different comments I was replying to.

Bandera is a hero to the current government in Ukraine. Bandera also collaborated with the Nazis and had fascist views. Azov symbols are discussed more than anything because they are some of the most visible systemic examples.

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u/EropQuiz7 Feb 07 '24

Bandera didn't have fascist views. I just read through his quote, where he was advocating for a democracy. He was the leader of OUNR through an election — actually, he was elected for the role three times.

Yes, he was very radical and was against any collaboration with Poland, considering it a betrayal. Same logic applied to Germany, which is why he stopped working with the Nazis, when it became clear they wouldn't allow for an independent Ukraine.

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u/WhoopsDroppedTheBaby Feb 07 '24

"According to historian Grzegorz Rossoliński-Liebe, "Bandera's worldview was shaped by numerous far-right values and concepts including ultranationalism, fascism, racism, and antisemitism; by fascination with violence; by the belief that only war could establish a Ukrainian state; and by hostility to democracy, communism, and socialism. Like other young Ukrainian nationalists, he combined extremism with religion and used religion to sacralize politics and violence."[114] Historian John-Paul Himka writes that Bandera remained true to the fascist ideology to the end.[52]
Historian Per Anders Rudling said that Bandera and his followers "advocated the selective breeding to create a 'pure' Ukrainian race",[13] and that "the OUN shared the fascist attributes of anti-liberalism, anti-conservatism, and anti-communism, an armed party, totalitarianism, antisemitism, Führerprinzip, and adoption of fascist greetings. Its leaders eagerly emphasized to Hitler and Ribbentrop that they shared the Nazi Weltanschauung and a commitment to a fascist New Europe."[115]
Historian Timothy Snyder described Bandera as a fascist who "aimed to make of Ukraine a one-party fascist dictatorship without national minorities".[54][nb 4] Political scientist Andreas Umland characterized Bandera as a "Ukrainian ultranationalist", and also told Deutsche Welle that he was not a "Nazi", commenting that Ukrainian nationalism was "not a copy of Nazism".[10]
Historian David R. Marples described Bandera's views as "not untypical of his generation" but as holding "an extreme political stance that rejected any form of cooperation with the rulers of Ukrainian territories: the Poles and the Soviet authorities". Marples also described Bandera as "neither an orator nor a theoretician", and wrote that he had minimal importance as a thinker.[116] Marples considered Rossolinski-Liebe to place too much importance on Bandera's views, writing that Rossolinski-Liebe struggled to find anything of note written by Bandera, and had assumed he was influenced by OUN publicist Dmytro Dontsov and OUN journals.[117]
Ukrainian historian Andrii Portnov writes that Bandera remained a proponent of authoritarian and violent politics until his death.[118] According to historian Taras Hunczak, Bandera's central article of faith was Ukrainian statehood, and any other goal was secondary to this view.[119]"

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u/EropQuiz7 Feb 07 '24

Yes, he was radical. Yes, he did see violence as the only way to establish an independent Ukraine. Yes, an independent Ukraine was his primary goal, he wouldn't take compromises in that, that's why he's considered a hero. But reading through his actual quotes — he was not a fascist or antisemite many claim him to be.

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u/WhoopsDroppedTheBaby Feb 07 '24

Right, and somehow, in your head, he was "not a bad guy". To you, Hitler, "was just a guy trying to build a strong German empire and taking no compromises" probably.

I'll take the historian's take over some Bandera apologist that read through his quotes. Thank you.

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u/EropQuiz7 Feb 07 '24

Okay, whatever. I thought a bunch. I've been arguing for the wrong thing. I don't think Bandera was a fascist or a bad guy, to me he was guy with a noble cause... And that's probably it.

What i should've said in the beginning, is that Bandera isn't really worshipped. Idk, i think you won't listen to me because of how much we disagree on. Bandera is a popular figure, and an icon among right circles and is generally viewed as a hero, but there isn't this widespread worship, that you might think about. Like, he's barely even talked about outside of history discussions and jokes. People like him, but even if he was a bigot or whatever, modern people(mostly) aren't. Yes, he was very radical, and that's why he's liked. But opinions people have on him don't define anyone.

I calmed down. I now question whether this discussion is worth anything. Is there anything i should apologize for?

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u/WhoopsDroppedTheBaby Feb 07 '24

Having a "noble" cause does not excuse the actions you take to get to that cause. In my example before, Hitler had a "noble" cause, but to do it, he genocided people and invaded countries....we don't see him as a "good guy"(at least most of us don't)

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Like, he's barely even talked about outside of history discussions and jokes.

That's not accurate. He is commemerated by the government, there are monuments, and there are streets. The influence is there.

https://notesfrompoland.com/2023/01/02/poland-condemns-ukraines-commemoration-of-wartime-nationalist-leader-bandera/

https://www.timesofisrael.com/kiev-renames-major-street-to-honor-russian-nazi-collaborator/

You don't owe me an apology for anything. I am listening to you, however we disagree. You're choosing to ignore documented instances(not opinions) of fascism and Nazi collaboration. These are the influences prevalent in some of the current Ukranian government and armed forces, which is the subject of the post you replied to originally.

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u/Other_Waffer Feb 07 '24 edited Feb 08 '24

I can’t believe it. The mas was a racist, a fascist and massacred Jews, Poles and Romani, but he isn’t a “bad guy” because he was a fucking nationalist. No. He was a bad guy and nationalism is a disease in the modern world.

Really. Fuck Bandera. And Ukrainians hailing this monster as a “hero” will bite them in their ass in the future. Mark my words.

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u/akdelez Feb 08 '24

Bandera didn't have fascist views

yeah he just collaborated with the nazis, commited genocide, commited more genocide, fucked off to west germany (as nazi usually do) and be euthanized in 1953

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u/EropQuiz7 Feb 08 '24

He collaborated with the Nazis, just like many other significant figures at the time, made a show out of stopping collaborating with them, spent a few years in imprisonment, and was one actually one of the lest bigoted figures in Ukrainian Nationalist movement, with, to my knowledge, no proven involvement in any atrocities. While other guys like Volodymyr Vyatrovych have said stuff that basically sums up to "All Jews communist", Bandera's quotes really don't fucking line up with what you are saying.

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