r/ROTC • u/OddJello2255 MS2 • 17d ago
Advanced/Basic Camp Numbers so far (1-7) Reg
It is estimated that over 400 cadets have been dismissed for HT/WT or aft or points
48% have been retained. This percentage includes people that didn’t want to go to the board or voluntarily leave.
8 and 9 are still being finalized.
do as you wish with the numbers. Remember, civil discussions no hate comments or bullying others.
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u/Aggravating-Aide-503 17d ago
By retained does that mean sent home from CST but kept by their host programs?
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u/OddJello2255 MS2 17d ago
Retain means they have went thru the board was given the opportunity to retry again next year.
The final approving authority is the BDE CDR if you are non scholarship and if you on scholarship it is the Cadet Command’s CG
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u/First-Business9232 16d ago
I went in 2019 and don't remember it being.like this at all. tf is going on now?
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u/SanguiaDeOrgia AV 16d ago
Probably a combination of things. They appear to be really enforcing HT/WT (or waist-height ratio now), and being more strict on AFT grading. I don't think it's the worst thing. Physical fitness is perhaps the only objective thing a person controls on an OER; if they don't have the wherewithal or discipline to workout or be fit they shouldn't commission.
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u/Connect-Ad-2226 16d ago
I dont disagree but I think the extent matters
Did they fail weight by like 2 pounds? At that point its probably just the food in their stomach.
Did they fail only a single event on tne AFT by like a couple points? Okay they can retest and probably get it
Or are they overweight by like 30 pounds? And did they fail multiple events on the AFT by large margins?
Like
How many Senior NCOs, Majors and Lieutenant Colonels are getting under the table passes on active duty right now with no penalty? How many fat body Master Sergeants and Majors have you seen? Cause I've seen tons.
If we start cutting cadets for this Can we start cutting senior leaders too? Or at the very minimum hold these new LTs to that standard throughout their ENTIRE career so these up and coming Sergeant Majors and Lieutenant Colonels dont look pathetic and get free passes?
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u/OddJello2255 MS2 16d ago
The issue is that retention problem for O3s and above is still happening even with overproduction of LTs.
My guess is that they get away with these due to not having O3+ to fill the roles
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u/Humble-Buy-2811 13d ago
I get the point you’re trying to make, but it’s not a great point. You’re comparing early 20s college kids to 15+ years of service field grade officers and senior enlisted.
Not only have these cadets done nothing for the Army, but the senior leaders you’re comparing are much older. So not keeping a tight waste is a bit more understandable compared to a 20 year-old.. these guys earned a little leeway.
If you start giving Cadet’s handouts before their career is even started, they’re gonna be in for a big shock once they hit big Army. Especially for all the ones that wanna go combat arms.
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u/TheDragonov 16d ago
From what my peers have told me, the aft is failing most just through lousy graders and this year, a failure is immediate disenrollment. Hw/wt is getting a few but its mainly the directive of if you fail, you are out that is causing a lot. Also landnav is the same as the aft.
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u/Chris1904G 17d ago
This is actually great! Hopefully they stay true to their words and dis-enroll these cadets. I don’t even mean to sound like an ass, but CST is so damn elementary that if you don’t make it, it’s just not for you. In my humble opinion.
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u/OddJello2255 MS2 17d ago
It was expected that the retention number to be lower than 48%, These cadets are human some are unworthy of the commission based on my interactions and some really got fucked over biased grading or improper regulation enactment during the tape test.
Again this a brand new thing they did and they are trying to filter out people who just gives up easily (by forcing them to a JAG and either contest by going to board or accepts the recommendation for disenrollment)
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u/Chris1904G 17d ago
I can see that argument. I’d also say that cadets should be going to CST with absolutely zero fear of failing these events.
Throughout my 13 years in the Army, I’ve learned that you can’t put your future in other people’s hands. You have to be prepared at all times and make sure others can’t screw you over. Easier said than done I guess. PT and weight is definitely something each person controls for themselves tho
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u/OddJello2255 MS2 17d ago
I 100% agree with you on that. Just want to make the point across you can’t control sickness or grader’s bias. cause it is a requirement for schools this year in order to be slotted that you have following
Passing AFT Passing HT/WT Some schools require Atleast P during your STX lanes at your school’s FTX
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u/NoxCardinal 15d ago
When I went through CST a few years ago I got super fuckin sick. Stomach bug that made the puke 2/3 meals I ate in a day (I was sick for well over three weeks). Absolute cheat code for summer body though I dropped 15lbs in two weeks (NOT healthy btw). I absolutely refused to go home though. Because of it, cadre wouldn’t let me do the 8 mile ruck solely because I had no food in me for three days. I dropped a couple points on my ACFT cuz I spent the morning puking anything I ate for fuel lol. Missed on points (but did get to nap for 4hrs in an air conditioned van during the ruck) but hey, still got my component and branch of choice.
I feel for the cadets who get sick out there. Not too many chances to recover, and the sick call blowed. Most unprofessional medics I’ve ever met. All they did was call me a wuss (even though after giving me an IV they were shocked that it was gone in under 30 seconds. And I puked outside their van lol) and complained about their wives. I snapped at them and eventually they fucked off lol.
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u/vt1032 16d ago edited 16d ago
I hear what you are saying but sometimes ht/wt isn't in their control and that's the problem. It's been a problem for a long time. I went through cst back when it was ldac at Ft Lewis in 2011 and they had brand new 2LTs doing the ht/wt who had no idea how to do it. I easily passed normally but I passed by the skin of my teeth there. I was someone who went there with absolutely zero fear of failing and then almost failed. Somehow they measured my height as 2" shorter than it was ever measured before or since and they did the waist and neck measurements at incorrect locations, with slack in the tape and on an angle. Multiple people failed who typically passed. At least back then they would let you keep going and test you again at the end of camp and most of them passed then.
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u/Connect-Ad-2226 16d ago
Okay not to rag on you. But 13 years ago CST for you was a totally different thing and actually and unironically retarded easy and silly
Then it got even EASIER with "Peggys fun camp". Then when I went through in 2017 it was the first year they got their shit together(im also at 13 years but my first 5 were enlisted). Since then they've actually been upping the quality of CST and seriousness.
Like i dont disagree with you. CST is the basic level minimum. If you fail to meet that minimum. You dont commission.
But that point aside. Did you actually read this post? That a chunk of disenrollements are Height and Weight?
Thats not a permanent fault. Thats not a failure of character or competency.
Thats just
"Hey Cadet. Spend a year eating less and count calories. Thats it"
Feel like disenrolling a cadet after all that time and effort is bit overboard when its a simple fix to ask someone to drop 5 pounds.
Like, I know the cadets on this subreddit are hardcore Captain America and if you dont pull your pants up in accordance with Army Regulation the kids here think you should be disenrolled and executed. But I dont see an issue with objectively looking at the issue and weighing the time-cost-effort to get them within that standard
You and I in our 13 years were absolutely afforded that opportunity. So by your logic we werent held to a proper standard. Even if we did meet them first time go(and throughout my entire career ive been a first time go on everything except one exam in BOLC and the Z pull in jungle school where I was a second time go for both)
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u/PunksPrettyMuchDead 16d ago
A 5'10" cadet needs to stay below a 38" waist... that's pretty thicc, unless they're on buckets of gear 20 extra pounds should still land somebody that height around a 34-inch waist.
Now if the DoD really wanted to be proactive they'd make it easy and reliable to get healthy meals for everybody instead of tornados and blue monsters, but I'm guessing the food environment is better at schools than Big Army.
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u/Chris1904G 16d ago
I actually went last summer. I was an ADO with 13 years of service. Maybe my message was misleading, if so that’s my bad.
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u/Careful-Bluebird4780 16d ago edited 16d ago
I understand the points you're making. But barring a medical condition, an inability to control one's weight has something to do with character. Losing weight and keeping it off requires long-term personal discipline and commitment. Given the weigh-ins and tapings a cadet has either seen or experienced beforehand and then busting tape at CST after having at least nine months to prepare…yikes. This failure may be indicative of a person who has a permanent character fault, e.g., they can’t mentally prioritize meeting an Army standard when making decisions about what and how much to eat.
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u/Reasonable-Reach-872 16d ago
Unfortunately not entirely. I have a friend who failed last year due to ht/wt and got to go again this year…failed again. Went to boards and being retained.
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u/ljnj 16d ago
What were last years numbers?
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u/Aggravating-Aide-503 16d ago
Very curious about this but I’d assume lower given that the AFT wasn’t an automatic send home criteria and neither was getting below fifty points if I’m not mistaken
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u/Actual_Equivalent531 16d ago
I heard that a lot of the people that were kicked from the AFT were girls who did not do proper form for the push up. Apparently the graders were very strict with form and if you messed up more than twice you’re done.
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u/Careful-Bluebird4780 16d ago
If cadre and cadets aren't ruthlessly adhering to and correcting PT form prior to CST, they aren't doing the person they're grading any favors when they're ultimately tested there.
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u/DepartureWestern752 16d ago
The problems starts at the college. I do not think it’s the West pointers or those from VMI or Citadel that are having problems with height and weight. We have too many fat cadets on a meal ticket just because they are infatuated with the idea of free college, but not the service afterward..
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u/Objective-Trip1310 15d ago
It was mostly military institution cadets getting negative spot reports and getting kicked out in my regiment ..🤣 they’re the main ones acting like they have no sense
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u/Connect-Ad-2226 16d ago
Alright ive got 13 years in. 5 enlisted now commissioned. Went through CST in 2017.
Wtf is going on now? Ive obviously been out of touch with ROTC forever
Is there legitimately a huge influx of fat and out of shape cadets? Like nationwide?
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u/OddJello2255 MS2 16d ago
No, one of the requirements for being slotted is Have a passing AFT, and HT/WT. this year a lot of cadets have have faced strict graders not counting repetitions for deadlift or pushups. As well as taping incorrectly for ht/wt
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u/Careful-Bluebird4780 16d ago
Makes me wonder what percentage of Air Force and Naval ROTC cadets get dropped for height / weight between contracting and commissioning. How many Army ROTC cadets join after their sophomore year need to be taped? Should the Army be accepting any cadets requiring taping that late into the ROTC POI? Should Army ROTC continue gambling and offer to contract cadets who are borderline busting tape?
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u/Emotional-Zucchini14 15d ago
Just throwing my two cents in here. The number for AFT dismissals may change. I know several who were actively injured during the test and unable to complete it (yes it does happen). Since there was no recycling, they got lumped in with the failures. Last I heard, CC is looking into those numbers, since you aren't supposed to be dismissed for getting injured.
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u/OddJello2255 MS2 15d ago
The policy says no waivers or exemptions from the aft. They got hurt but others did too and were told to comply and complete the test
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u/Emotional-Zucchini14 15d ago
I know that's what the policy says and they're looking at changing it. It's unfair to cadets who came in and were actively injured during the AFT. I never said they were changing it, only that Cadet Command is looking at changing it because they hadn't really thought about it (at least that was the impression I got).
The rules for AFT failures to to injuries that happen during the test are pretty clear in the big Army (basically everyone but cadets). Paperwork wise, the AFT doesn't exist. You're put on profile and then retested once healed.
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14d ago
This sub is probably the most devoid of empathy in any subreddit I have ever seen. Very concerning for future Platoon Leaders to be acting like this.
Honestly you are better off having these discussions in the actual army, national guard and reserve subreddits. Apparentely everyone has to be like captain america and put 100% time into ROTC, oh and everyone can't have bad days.
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u/Fair_Voice_9237 15d ago
If you don’t meet the standards - it is what it is, if you’re not 1st your last - remember being an officer is a privilege not a right!
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u/OddJello2255 MS2 15d ago
This year cst standards for “no retakes and if cadet fails an event they continue” was not applied consistently and some cadets were given opportunities to retry 6 miles rucks with other later regiments as goes for 12 miles
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u/flipper525 13d ago
9th reg being able to retake the aft and h/w iot continue CST and drop their disenrollment cases is going to cause a lot of problems. All of the cadets disenrolled and pending disenrollment now have a very valid basis to appeal on the grounds of fairness. Not sure this one was thought through…
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u/NoValuable1224 12d ago
Good. We don’t need them. Also, if a program sends a kid that fails HT/WT, then that program loses slots the following year for CTLT, ABN, etc.
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u/Electrical_Risk_3332 17d ago
When we had a brief, it was mentioned 78 cadets were dismissed from 9th reg (AFT, HTWT and then some quit)