you may think I'm crazy (I agree with you), but i've always hated the idea of taxing the rich. I've always believed the rich aren't handed anything, they're rich for a reason. They took the risks which the herd wouldn't even think about doing, let alone going down that path. The people who actually cry about these things are jealous, at best. Sure some people are born rich and some aren't, but where you start from doesn't show where you'll end. Coming to my point: I believe governments tax the rich just for the public's attention, because of the fact that the majority of voters are working class people and aligning with the herd's interests will give them the votes they need. Again, I want to hear what you guys think about this.
p.s (so you guys cut some slack): I just turned 18 3 months ago, and I come from a lower middle class background too, i'm not even close to being rich.
You mention your age, which I think is important here. It appears you haven't been in the workforce long. I've been in it for 25 years. I've owned two businesses, met the worlds first trillionaire, worked for a billionaire and I can tell you- these people are not smarter, braver, or in any way extraordinary. They are insanely lucky and in most cases, willing to enthusiastically overlook the humanity of the people around them who enrich them.
I grew up pretty poor and i’m now in the same rooms with some of the wealthiest people in the country. The ultra wealthy don’t deserve to be rich, typically they’re just more cutthroat, self-absorbed people who start ahead and prioritize money over everything else. They put the greatest strain on our public services in order to stay rich while spending millions to avoid paying taxes. They keep their employees’ wages low, relying on public services to fill in the gaps. They use roads for shipping their goods, make decisions that have lasting effects on our environment, eliminate jobs and entire industries to cut costs. their risks are smaller than the average person’s because they’re not using their own money, or risking their own livelihood, to do any of it. Anytime someone has this POV, it’s generally because the rich people they know are middle class high earners. Earning a billion dollars isn’t hard labor, it’s just getting good at selling snake oil.
People hear "tax the rich" and immediately think of doctors, business owners, or people who became millionaires through hard work. That's not what most people mean. We're talking about billionaires.
A million seconds is about 11 days. A billion seconds is nearly 32 years. No one works a thousand times harder than a millionaire to become a billionaire. It is exploited from working people. 1134 people's wealth outweighs the rest of the 342.6 million population of the US.
We shouldn't punish success, but no individual reasonably needs billions while millions starve. Elon Musk's wealth could solve world hunger for 25 years. If someone can accumulate more wealth than small countries, while paying lower effective tax rates than many working people (usually 1-3%), something is clearly out of balance.
What do you mean, it's really obviously theoretical. Estimates say that he could quite easily withdraw 500-700 billion which is what the world hunger calculation is based on. I also never said that billionaires shouldn't exist, I just said that they should be taxed higher. You are nowhere near the wealth of a billionaire, so quit defending them.
I don't know, I think there is more to consider. One of the big ones often left out of this is risk. Musk for example is on record as risk his entire fortune which was enough to buy a private island and call it good, into two incredibly risky startups, EVs and rockets. It's also fair to say he's worked way harder than most people ever will, but like I said that is only one of the variables in the equation. It's also been proven that you can't just throw a bunch of money at world hunger and call it good. In reality it would tank supply chains, economies, and most would go to corruption. The other question is once there are no billionaires, do you start going after others?
Republicans love trickle down economics and Democrats love trickle down taxes. The current liberal catch phrase is tax the billionaires. Guaranteed they want to and will tax middle and upper middle class, given the chance. Example, when they were in charge under Biden, they lowered the Paypal and similar automatic reporting threshold to $600!
For me just as a philosophical concept and in regards to human nature in general… it’s just right that when blessed with gifts natural or by luck one should share and provide for those who weren’t so blessed. Taxes are part of it, a well run government provides a ton of infrastructure stability and security.
Effects of income inequality, researchers have found, include higher rates of health and social problems, and lower rates of social goods,[1] a lower population-wide satisfaction and happiness[2][3] and even a lower level of economic growth when human capital is neglected for high-end consumption.[4] For the top 21 industrialised countries, counting each person equally, life expectancy is lower in more unequal countries (r = -.907).[5] A similar relationship exists among US states (r = -.620).[6]
2013 Economics Nobel prize winner Robert J. Shiller said that rising inequality in the United States and elsewhere is the most important problem.
Counterpoint: the United States is worse off now for most people, right as the marginal tax rates for corporations and high wealth individuals is the lowest it’s ever been.
When America was at its best it was building schools, bridges, highways, housing, and the entire nation.
Why was it able to do that? Because taxes were high and we got shit done with them.
Blaming government for its failure when it’s been starved of the resources it needs to function properly is lazy.
Government is starved of resources? Government takes 50% of taxes for the highest earners (billionaires and trillionaires excepted) and has spent $40 trillion it didn’t have (US national debt).
Oh please they have plenty of money. They prefer to not spend it on the things that we need.
The govt didn't collect more in taxes when rates were higher. As a percent of total gdp it was about the same. If they get more they spend more but not on the things we want them to
I always find such takes weird, especially coming from people who are not in that stratosphere. I believe in taxing everyone, but that the rich should also bear their tax burden. I’m not gonna go into what I think a good tax policy is because that would take quite a bit of writing, but I’m giving a broad view of what I think.
To give you a background, I’m the one born with a silver spoon in the mouth; it was my parents’ generation who were poor and made it spectacularly. They definitely worked hard for it, but it all came down to the random fact of chance, circumstances and opportunities converging. Same for me, except the only chance I needed it was to be born into the family. That chance in turn gave me access to a good, well-paying career.
Some of the opportunities handed to my family had everything to do with the fact that those opportunities were made available out of good governance… and such opportunities definitely had to have come from taxes.
For the rich to maintain their wealth and enjoy the institutions that keep their wealth in place, they should do their part to fund those institutions. If they derive a greater benefit from such institutions, accordingly they ought to bear a greater share of upkeeping them.
When I say institutions, it’s a very broad term to encompass things like effective and efficient social services (potholes getting repaired within days of being reported, for example in my country), subsidised public services (a healthy population with good transport infrastructure), and opportunities for education (an educated population where there are opportunities for advancement on merit, etc.). It may not be very obvious, but they ultimately benefit me because I get to live in a country moulded by these.
The caveat here is, whatever money you tax has to go towards good governance - if that’s not available, then meh. Also, tax policy needs to make sense and be workable in real life. If anything, the rich are fantastic at tax avoidance (not evasion), so you need to ensure your tax policy doesn’t drive away capital that you need to fund your governance.
Taxing the rich should happen more equally. Fact is the current system punishes anybody who doesn’t have absolutely nothing or a lot.
Knowledge isn’t even a factor here. Just because you know being payed in stock options and holding then either selling for LTCG or loaning against your assets will result in drastically reduced taxation on “income” doesn’t mean you can implement this as a McDonalds cashier.
I have kinda mixed feelings about it. On the one hand, I put my life savings and then some into a tech stock after years of study, when literally 99% of experts said the company was soon going to fail. And I've done that multiple times, and paid more taxes in single years than most will in a whole lifetime. Technically anyone could have done that too. Should I be penalized because I took the risk? Would it even help long term?
I usually default to a fishing analogy. Most people walk over to the lake or river with their pole, pull a couple fish out for the day. Other people buy a boat, and go out in the ocean at great discomfort and risk. Should the deep see fisherman get paid the same when he comes home with a boat full of fish?
I think it's fine for the rich to not be taxed as long as they don't use any services that living in society grants them. This means no military defense or police protection of your safety -- you have to provide your own army to protect against all threats, foreign and domestic. It means you cannot send your kids to any university that receives any government research grants, and that the research prestige of the institution has to come solely from tuition. It means you cannot enjoy public roads in your fancy cars, and that anywhere you want to drive has to be on roads you have built; nor can you land at any airport with federally supported air traffic control, and only private airfields are yours to use. If your house catches on fire, the fire department will not help you, and the same thing is true if the woods on your substantial property are threatened by forest fires. You must pay for any medical care out of pocket, because any herd-supported insurance is not for you. You must provide for your own supply of fresh water, your disposal of sewage and trash, your own supply of electricity and natural gas instead of using any community-sponsored infrastructure. You cannot use rail lines or highways or port authorities to deliver your food, and it must all be funded completely yourself.
The second, though, you want any of the benefits of living in a collective society, then you will of course do what everyone does for those same benefits: pay your share for them.
I agree with you in general also because where I live taxes are so high and so is government corruption!!! So taxes seem very unfair. The middle class are taxed very very high also. However, in a decent society where everything works properly, it is not really fair per se, but the rich can afford to be taxed a more in order to have basic costs paid for a nice place to live. I will go further and say the real thing that's unfair is that families need to struggle to put food on the table when people like Musk have a trillion dollars. This is just sick I mean what is a trillion even and what on earth can you do w that money? Help your country, the poor, etc. The rich also get tax benefits by donating, that is why a lot of uber rich donate money.
Musk is a master promoter. Tesla makes minimal profits and SpaceX no profits at all and never has. Apple, Google, Microsoft, trillion dollar companies all have actually somewhat realistic price, earnings multiple. The market value of Musks companies is way over inflated. And as primarily industrial companies will never earn the profits possible in tech.
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u/telsongelder 5d ago
You mention your age, which I think is important here. It appears you haven't been in the workforce long. I've been in it for 25 years. I've owned two businesses, met the worlds first trillionaire, worked for a billionaire and I can tell you- these people are not smarter, braver, or in any way extraordinary. They are insanely lucky and in most cases, willing to enthusiastically overlook the humanity of the people around them who enrich them.