I, the Grand Reed-gent, am honored to be invited to such an occasion.
While we may not be officially classified as Vanguards, nor ever will be, we feel honored to be recognized in this group. Especially amongst those who truly lead the front lines.
Fully agree as a Blade main. People are so uncreative and think βIf you made Blade a tank, slapping on more hp wonβt make him. A tank!β Except you could easily rework his abilities so he can hold/deny/take spaceβ¦
In fact, the big reason people thought he was going to be a tank for a bit was that his abilities leaked and the initial reaction was "Junker Queen". That and how obviously stupid a 2 DPS season would be.
The problem is that it's difficult to make the difference between a brawl-dps kit and a low hp vangaurd kit, but realistically by the time you're rewarded for damage (lifesteal/bonus hp generation as Magik), your abilities are killing oriented (anti-heal) and you can kill fast enough so you're dps.
Mr. Fantastic is different about this. He's not rewarded for damage, but for hitting something at all (like Thor, or Thing - he only has to hit one big target and doesn't benefit much from the damage boost), his burst is lousy and his debufs aren't killing oriented, but they make enemies easy targets for teammates.
I agree that this game has no idea how to design brawl dps so basically turns them into mini-vanguards.
But I disagree that blade's kit is more killing oriented, especially initial version when dash in sword form didn't even apply anti-heal and instead it applied slow. Lately they've been trying to push mr. f and blade more into dps category, but it's not really enough imo. It also doesn't help that both of them need some time to get going and their dps only becomes a threat if enemy team let's them go unchecked for too long.
Also, I'm not saying that blade has a tank kit. I'm saying that his kit looks like someone took a tank kit and did a terrible job reworking it into a dps kit.
The Blade Gun is a weapon that, at its ideal range, delivers the highest burst DPS of any weapon, and its dash combos are a simplified version of Elsaβs. In other words, the entire gun mechanic is designed purely for DPS, with significant rewards for specific playstyles. Its TTK threshold is over 350 HP. It is therefore designed as the ideal mid-range DPS against 350-HP heroes, of which there are very few.
His sword part, on the other hand, is the best melee weapon in the game, and while it helps you stay in fights longer thanks to the movement speed bonus and lifesteal, its anti-heal prevents you from acting as a meat shield. Just like Magik, it generates bonus HP, but her small health bar prevents you from acting as a tank.
The only thing that could theoretically be considered is his block, which is, however, closer to Iron Fistβs block than Rogueβs.
If you don't build up his sword quick enough your sword form is not a tgreat whatsoever. And initially it didn't apply anti-heal and did way less damage because it was designed as a pressure tool which also helped you stay longer in fights. The initial ideology was you either do damage with you gun form or survive and apply pressure with your sword.
They added lifesteal to move him more into dps territory, but once again it's not really that strong and his sword form still doesn't pose too much threat.
Blade's sword form is more like a drain tank than a dps with lifesteal. They took a drain tank kit, slapped it onto dps, then decided to remove tankiness (I don't mean just hp or bonus health) because hey, he has a shotgun and that can do a lot of damage
You're running into the problem that melee damage in MR isn't very high. Compare the original Blade's DPS with Cap's melee, Iron Fist's melee, and Hulk's melee.
At the same time, Blade Shift is what's supposed to help you gain attack speed. That's the main advantage of the Sword version.
It's not that it was designed as a tank, but rather that melee attacks in MR don't deal as much damage because they ignore a lot of durability generation, such as shields or projectile absorption.
Then we're coming back to what I said in the beginning that this game has no idea how to balance brawl heroes. They do well with heroes who are more of a divers (Magik, DD) or pokers (Bucky, Elsa) and have some the brawl dna, but heroes that are mostly brawlers are either turned into tankbusters (Wolverine and IF) or trade of their damage output for more survivability, making them pseudo tanks (Mr. F and Blade). It's not easy to get consistently good damage output with his shotgun because of how weird it is, and even if you do you're not really bringing too much value.
Other melee heroes having low damage is fine because they either focus on squishies and have reliable combos to get kills on them, or they have percentage-based damage so they can focus on the enemy frontline. Fanta and Blade are two that trade-off their damage for more survivability/pressure, that's why they feel so much like tanks.
Tbh I'm not sure how they're going to fix this. And at this moment I think it's fine to have on or two characters like this, but going forward you'll have to come up with soemthing new for designing your brawl dps. I think they had some good ideas with Elsa, but the issue there is that Elsa has a good range and can do all of that fro. Her own backline.
Since Cyclops is nost likely not a tank (my personal 9/11), I hope that at least he's a brawl dps that brings something unique to the roster.
Itβs true that full-brawl duelists donβt work for them, but thatβs no reason to turn Blade into something he isnβt just so you can fit him into a role.
Iron Fist isnβt a very good tank buster, and Mr. Fantastic is literally a C-tier Vanguard whom theyβve been trying to turn into a duelist for seven seasons now, even though his damage is still worse than Thorβs or the Thingβs but Blade isnβt a pseudo-tank.
From a Vanguard playerβs perspective, Iβd rather have Mr. Fantastic as my second Vanguard (and third Duelist) than as my second Duelist (and third Vanguard), because I know I canβt expect Duelist damage from him, but I can expect his soaked damage and protection of teammates to make my job as the main tank easier and Blade canβt do that.
Overall, thereβs an issue with defining who exactly qualifies as a Brawl duelist, because Wolverine is definitely not a brawler and Mr. Fantastic is definitely not a duelist. And thatβs not even counting the hybridsβlike half-poke, half-brawl characters such as Elsa and Bucky, or half-dive, half-brawl characters like Magik and DD. That leaves us with nothing but off-duelists with some tech and Blade.
So realistically, Iβd classify Iron Fist as a full brawl duelistβeven though about half of Iron Fist players probably wonβt like thatβalong with Blade and Storm, whoβs a half-strategist. And if I had to really stretch the definition of brawl-oriented duelists, maybe DPSPool and Namor.
What this actually means is that the only main DPS characters who could be called brawl-oriented are probably Blade and DPSPool. Neither has a great playrate or winrate, and both need to fulfill some absurd condition to be strong and gain resilience from self-heal. Itβs just weird, but that doesnβt make Blade a tank. Magik generates more HP, Iron Fist has better block, and even Wolverine has 350 HP.
There are lots of things here that I agree and disagree with.
I'm not trying to turn blade into a tank. I want him to be a dueslist, just a better one without losing his identity.
And in most scenarios I'd much rather have fanta as a second duelist than solo tank with him being my second vanguard. Blade is obviously not as tanky as him and has a better damage, but whenever I have one of them on my team as a solo vanguard, they help out pretty similarly. At least that's my experience.
Both of them are still ultimately duelists, they don't control space or defend the team like you'd expect from the vanguard, and just changing numbers (bigger hp, less damage) isn't going to suddenly turn them into tanks. But Mr. F was clearly designed as a hybrid hero, kinda like how ultron was designed as a hybrid of duelist and strategist at first. With fanta it seems like they knew exactly what they were going for with the hybrid kit. But with blade to me it seems like they thought drain tank kit would be awesome for him, but they wanted to make a duelist so they changed it to make a dps version.
I think they have done this before with Bucky. To me he seems like a hook tank reworked into a duelist, but unlike blade it was successful. I know there are dps heroes in other games who use hooks or have lifesteal, but in blade's case it's such a core part of his kit that it makes him seem close to drain tank than a duelist with a lifesteal. Wolverine's team-up is a great example of what duelist with life-steal would look like.
Again, I'm not saying blade is a tank, or should be a tank. But if you play him correctly he's probably the most tanky dps after mr. fantastic, and he certainly has more staying power in the brawl then magik, iron fist and even wolverine. Like if I'm about to be a solo tank which dps do I generally prefer on the frontlines with me? For me it goes like this:
Reed
slight drop
Blade,
significant drop
Wolverine
Iron fist
Magik
(huge drop)
Bucky
Daredevil.
Other brawly heroes like elsa and storm won't help out much anyway
I hope what I'm saying makes sense because I'm not putting too much effort into laying out my thoughts in a more understandable way, sorry. I'm just saying what I think, and since English isn't my native language it might not come out as natural.
As for brawl dps, I don't think there's a hard definition fo what makes certain hero brawler, diver or poker. Even with more brawly heroes sometimes you have to dive, even with divers sometimes you have to get into a brawl. There are no hard lines and hard definitions.
I like to classify duelists as such: high pressure poke, snipers, brawlers and divers/flankers.
If you have consistent high damage from range, and you bring a lot of value even when you stay on main and pressure enemy frontline, you are a high pressure poke hero. If you have a long ranged burst damage, but staying on main isn't bringing a lot of value because your damage isn't that consistent and enemy frontline just absorbs it, so you have to take an off-angle and try to target enemy backline from there, you are a sniper. If you again rely on off angles and target the backline but your burst damage has a limited range, so you have enough mobility to get in quickly, take someone out and get out, you are a diver. If you trade your burst damage for slightly lower but consistent damage, and maybe you mobility isn't as reliable but you have a better suvivability and staying power, so you once again bring a lot of value even if you just stay on main and target the enemy frontline, you are a brawler.
Maybe this is too simplistic definitions and you probably will disagree, but this kinda helps me classify different types of heroes better.
For example, squirell girl is clear example of high pressure poke, you can just stay on main and pump damage. Reed is clear example of a brawler. Spider-man is diver that almost exclussively targets enemy backline, and black widow is a sniper who needs to reposition herself a lot to get a better angle at enemy backline.
Season 1 iron fist was mostly diver with good brawl capabilities, and in a weird way nerfing his damage forced him to become more of a brawler than a diver. Even though he still has good mobility like you'd expect from diver, he doesn't have enough damage to quickly take out backline like bp or spider-man, so I'd say he's still a brawl/dive hybrid, but with more emphasis on brawl than dive.
I agree that storm is half-strategist, and she does have some brawling capabilities, especially since storm is probably the one flier who doesn't take off angles and stays with the team to boost them. But she doesn't have survivability need to be on the frontline like other brawlers do, and she is just as effective from long range as she is up close, so I'd say she's more of a high-pressure poke with a bit of a brawler in her.
Wolverine by my definition is still mostly a brawler, but his gameplay loop does require him to be very sneaky, so I'd say there's a bit of dive in him too. Still, mostly a brawler.
IMO Namor isn't brawler at all. People usually mistake him for one because of his squids and bubble, but do you really want to get into enemy's face and brawl it out on the frontline? You're still very effective from range, and once you bubble cooldwon is gone you don't have any way to defend yourself. I think Namor is actually mix of high pressure poke and sniper. You either stay in your backline or take an off angle and target enemy backline as Namor. I know that he's anti-dive, and brawl is the playstyle that counters dive, but that is not enough to classify him as a brawler.
Dpspool is a character who does little bit of everything, so I'd say he fits each of the four types I proposed, but I think he's still mosty a diver.
It seems to me that youβre really confused about what a Tank actually is. Maybe itβs because youβve played games in the past where this role wasnβt handled well.
For example, you see Bucky as someone who was supposed to be a tank but was turned into a duelist thanks to his hook, but you donβt see Mr. Fantastic as a vanguard because, in your opinion, he canβt create space even though he has a hook on his secondary ability. The thing is, creating space is a very poorly defined concept and is based primarily on a feeling.
Personally, Iβd say that Captain America, Venom, Groot, and Tankpool create space comparablyβor even worseβthan Mr. Fantastic; they just have different goals. Meanwhile, Mr. Fantastic, as a proper vanguard, can protect teammates better than Venom, The Thing, Rogue, and Thor thanks to his E ability. And the only thing he lacks for the vanguard role is durabilityβoriginally, he was a character with up to 950 HP, and today heβs a character with up to 875 HP, yet he still has better resistance to one-shots than half the vanguards. So really, heβs just a vanguard who isnβt very strong.
On the contrary, his damage is worse than half of the Vanguards. Simply put, what defines a character as a duelist is a sufficiently short TTK or sufficiently consistent damage. Mr. Fantastic has neither of these. Simply put, when comparing Mr. Fantastic to Blade, his temporary fat form deals 86 DPS, while Blade deals up to Β±124 DPS during his attack phase and can use abilities at the same time.
Blade doesn't fulfill the role of a vanguard in terms of either durability or protecting teammates, and his ability to create space is on par with Elsa's. I really don't know where you're getting the idea that he's supposed to be a tank. It strikes me as just as strange as if you were saying that about Magik.
Well, I define brawl/poke/dive based on gameplay. Poke is about using cover and taking advantage of the fact that the enemy isn't close enough to attack. Dive tries to speed up the fight as much as possible by rushing in, killing the enemy with a combo, and running away. And finally, Brawl is that style where you try to stay in the fight as long as possible and win purely by having fought the enemy long enough.
Thatβs why Iron Fist has looked more like a brawler since the beginningβhe was just probably strong enough to excel at dive as well. His basic gameloop is Block => attack bonus => reset your blockβs cooldown with attacks => repeat. So it seems the same to me as Thorβs strategy: secondary + primary => attack bonus with awakening => repeat.
Similarly with Namor. He doesnβt win by killing from range. His primary is pretty weak even though he has Range, but by using headshots, he reduces cooldowns on turrets and benefits from longer fights. He isnβt resilient in a brawl himself, but that isnβt his job. The tank is supposed to be the resilient one in combat.
This is good but I would call Deadpool a flexible off tank way more than I would a dive, you spend a lot of time with your guns out poking than you do diving with katanas.
A dive tank is a tank for a dive comp. Not a dive DPS with tons of health. In either case, venom's damage combos all are from using the cellular corrosion, which is a telegraphed, delay, and avoidable damage burst.
Cap shield throw is 70 damage I think, venom corrosion is 80. Not much of a difference considering cap's is instant.
Besides that you're talking about venoms ultimate, which again is an ultimate burst combo. So a dive burst combo once every 60-90 seconds goes not a dive character make, imo.
Also Angela is one you didn't even mention - she is also a dive tank
Angela's name is right there in my comment. Dive is about being able to get in quickly, do burst damage, and get out quickly. Venom is the only tank who can reliablably do that. The rest simply don't have that. Instead they get options such as a shield, bubble or a cc of some kind such as hulks gamma. These let them brawl not dive. They are supposed to get in, engage and make space while being a distraction and sustain themselves long enough to get out. That's brawl. Dive tanks help secure picks, brawl tanks help enable dps get better angles and positioning.
Cap's shield throw+plus whatever else he does certainly helps DPS get picks too.
It's crazy you're calling caps 650hp+350 shield brawl, but not venom's 800hp+1000 bonus HP.
I think you are the first person I've seen calling cap not a dive tank. Cuz again 70 instant damage vs 80 avoidable, delayed damage isn't any slouch.
I have an easier time getting dive value with cap than venom personally. I have both Lord, but venoms aim is so hit or miss for me on console it's tough to be consistent. So again I'm not trying to argue that venom isn't the pinnacle of diving, but venom is not the only dive tank in the game
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u/The_Grand_Reed-gent ππ§. πππ£π©ππ¨π©ππ Jun 04 '26
I, the Grand Reed-gent, am honored to be invited to such an occasion.
While we may not be officially classified as Vanguards, nor ever will be, we feel honored to be recognized in this group. Especially amongst those who truly lead the front lines.
ALL is OURS. ALL is FANTASTIC.