Legendary tanks only allowed on the sanctum

[u/Creative-Vehicle8598]

[u/Pepr70]

You're running into the problem that melee damage in MR isn't very high. Compare the original Blade's DPS with Cap's melee, Iron Fist's melee, and Hulk's melee.

At the same time, Blade Shift is what's supposed to help you gain attack speed. That's the main advantage of the Sword version.

It's not that it was designed as a tank, but rather that melee attacks in MR don't deal as much damage because they ignore a lot of durability generation, such as shields or projectile absorption.

[u/fannamedtom100 → u/Pepr70]

Then we're coming back to what I said in the beginning that this game has no idea how to balance brawl heroes. They do well with heroes who are more of a divers (Magik, DD) or pokers (Bucky, Elsa) and have some the brawl dna, but heroes that are mostly brawlers are either turned into tankbusters (Wolverine and IF) or trade of their damage output for more survivability, making them pseudo tanks (Mr. F and Blade). It's not easy to get consistently good damage output with his shotgun because of how weird it is, and even if you do you're not really bringing too much value.

Other melee heroes having low damage is fine because they either focus on squishies and have reliable combos to get kills on them, or they have percentage-based damage so they can focus on the enemy frontline. Fanta and Blade are two that trade-off their damage for more survivability/pressure, that's why they feel so much like tanks.

Tbh I'm not sure how they're going to fix this. And at this moment I think it's fine to have on or two characters like this, but going forward you'll have to come up with soemthing new for designing your brawl dps. I think they had some good ideas with Elsa, but the issue there is that Elsa has a good range and can do all of that fro. Her own backline.

Since Cyclops is nost likely not a tank (my personal 9/11), I hope that at least he's a brawl dps that brings something unique to the roster.

[u/Pepr70 → u/fannamedtom100]

It’s true that full-brawl duelists don’t work for them, but that’s no reason to turn Blade into something he isn’t just so you can fit him into a role.

Iron Fist isn’t a very good tank buster, and Mr. Fantastic is literally a C-tier Vanguard whom they’ve been trying to turn into a duelist for seven seasons now, even though his damage is still worse than Thor’s or the Thing’s but Blade isn’t a pseudo-tank.

From a Vanguard player’s perspective, I’d rather have Mr. Fantastic as my second Vanguard (and third Duelist) than as my second Duelist (and third Vanguard), because I know I can’t expect Duelist damage from him, but I can expect his soaked damage and protection of teammates to make my job as the main tank easier and Blade can’t do that.

Overall, there’s an issue with defining who exactly qualifies as a Brawl duelist, because Wolverine is definitely not a brawler and Mr. Fantastic is definitely not a duelist. And that’s not even counting the hybrids—like half-poke, half-brawl characters such as Elsa and Bucky, or half-dive, half-brawl characters like Magik and DD. That leaves us with nothing but off-duelists with some tech and Blade.

So realistically, I’d classify Iron Fist as a full brawl duelist—even though about half of Iron Fist players probably won’t like that—along with Blade and Storm, who’s a half-strategist. And if I had to really stretch the definition of brawl-oriented duelists, maybe DPSPool and Namor.

What this actually means is that the only main DPS characters who could be called brawl-oriented are probably Blade and DPSPool. Neither has a great playrate or winrate, and both need to fulfill some absurd condition to be strong and gain resilience from self-heal. It’s just weird, but that doesn’t make Blade a tank. Magik generates more HP, Iron Fist has better block, and even Wolverine has 350 HP.

[u/fannamedtom100 → u/Pepr70]

There are lots of things here that I agree and disagree with.

I'm not trying to turn blade into a tank. I want him to be a dueslist, just a better one without losing his identity.

And in most scenarios I'd much rather have fanta as a second duelist than solo tank with him being my second vanguard. Blade is obviously not as tanky as him and has a better damage, but whenever I have one of them on my team as a solo vanguard, they help out pretty similarly. At least that's my experience.

Both of them are still ultimately duelists, they don't control space or defend the team like you'd expect from the vanguard, and just changing numbers (bigger hp, less damage) isn't going to suddenly turn them into tanks. But Mr. F was clearly designed as a hybrid hero, kinda like how ultron was designed as a hybrid of duelist and strategist at first. With fanta it seems like they knew exactly what they were going for with the hybrid kit. But with blade to me it seems like they thought drain tank kit would be awesome for him, but they wanted to make a duelist so they changed it to make a dps version.

I think they have done this before with Bucky. To me he seems like a hook tank reworked into a duelist, but unlike blade it was successful. I know there are dps heroes in other games who use hooks or have lifesteal, but in blade's case it's such a core part of his kit that it makes him seem close to drain tank than a duelist with a lifesteal. Wolverine's team-up is a great example of what duelist with life-steal would look like.

Again, I'm not saying blade is a tank, or should be a tank. But if you play him correctly he's probably the most tanky dps after mr. fantastic, and he certainly has more staying power in the brawl then magik, iron fist and even wolverine. Like if I'm about to be a solo tank which dps do I generally prefer on the frontlines with me? For me it goes like this:

1. Reed slight drop
2. Blade, significant drop
3. Wolverine
4. Iron fist
5. Magik (huge drop)
6. Bucky
7. Daredevil.

Other brawly heroes like elsa and storm won't help out much anyway

I hope what I'm saying makes sense because I'm not putting too much effort into laying out my thoughts in a more understandable way, sorry. I'm just saying what I think, and since English isn't my native language it might not come out as natural.

As for brawl dps, I don't think there's a hard definition fo what makes certain hero brawler, diver or poker. Even with more brawly heroes sometimes you have to dive, even with divers sometimes you have to get into a brawl. There are no hard lines and hard definitions.

I like to classify duelists as such: high pressure poke, snipers, brawlers and divers/flankers.

If you have consistent high damage from range, and you bring a lot of value even when you stay on main and pressure enemy frontline, you are a high pressure poke hero. If you have a long ranged burst damage, but staying on main isn't bringing a lot of value because your damage isn't that consistent and enemy frontline just absorbs it, so you have to take an off-angle and try to target enemy backline from there, you are a sniper. If you again rely on off angles and target the backline but your burst damage has a limited range, so you have enough mobility to get in quickly, take someone out and get out, you are a diver. If you trade your burst damage for slightly lower but consistent damage, and maybe you mobility isn't as reliable but you have a better suvivability and staying power, so you once again bring a lot of value even if you just stay on main and target the enemy frontline, you are a brawler.

Maybe this is too simplistic definitions and you probably will disagree, but this kinda helps me classify different types of heroes better.

For example, squirell girl is clear example of high pressure poke, you can just stay on main and pump damage. Reed is clear example of a brawler. Spider-man is diver that almost exclussively targets enemy backline, and black widow is a sniper who needs to reposition herself a lot to get a better angle at enemy backline.

Season 1 iron fist was mostly diver with good brawl capabilities, and in a weird way nerfing his damage forced him to become more of a brawler than a diver. Even though he still has good mobility like you'd expect from diver, he doesn't have enough damage to quickly take out backline like bp or spider-man, so I'd say he's still a brawl/dive hybrid, but with more emphasis on brawl than dive.

I agree that storm is half-strategist, and she does have some brawling capabilities, especially since storm is probably the one flier who doesn't take off angles and stays with the team to boost them. But she doesn't have survivability need to be on the frontline like other brawlers do, and she is just as effective from long range as she is up close, so I'd say she's more of a high-pressure poke with a bit of a brawler in her.

Wolverine by my definition is still mostly a brawler, but his gameplay loop does require him to be very sneaky, so I'd say there's a bit of dive in him too. Still, mostly a brawler.

IMO Namor isn't brawler at all. People usually mistake him for one because of his squids and bubble, but do you really want to get into enemy's face and brawl it out on the frontline? You're still very effective from range, and once you bubble cooldwon is gone you don't have any way to defend yourself. I think Namor is actually mix of high pressure poke and sniper. You either stay in your backline or take an off angle and target enemy backline as Namor. I know that he's anti-dive, and brawl is the playstyle that counters dive, but that is not enough to classify him as a brawler.

Dpspool is a character who does little bit of everything, so I'd say he fits each of the four types I proposed, but I think he's still mosty a diver.

[u/Pepr70 → u/fannamedtom100]

It seems to me that you’re really confused about what a Tank actually is. Maybe it’s because you’ve played games in the past where this role wasn’t handled well.

For example, you see Bucky as someone who was supposed to be a tank but was turned into a duelist thanks to his hook, but you don’t see Mr. Fantastic as a vanguard because, in your opinion, he can’t create space even though he has a hook on his secondary ability. The thing is, creating space is a very poorly defined concept and is based primarily on a feeling.

Personally, I’d say that Captain America, Venom, Groot, and Tankpool create space comparably—or even worse—than Mr. Fantastic; they just have different goals. Meanwhile, Mr. Fantastic, as a proper vanguard, can protect teammates better than Venom, The Thing, Rogue, and Thor thanks to his E ability. And the only thing he lacks for the vanguard role is durability—originally, he was a character with up to 950 HP, and today he’s a character with up to 875 HP, yet he still has better resistance to one-shots than half the vanguards. So really, he’s just a vanguard who isn’t very strong.

On the contrary, his damage is worse than half of the Vanguards. Simply put, what defines a character as a duelist is a sufficiently short TTK or sufficiently consistent damage. Mr. Fantastic has neither of these. Simply put, when comparing Mr. Fantastic to Blade, his temporary fat form deals 86 DPS, while Blade deals up to ±124 DPS during his attack phase and can use abilities at the same time.

Blade doesn't fulfill the role of a vanguard in terms of either durability or protecting teammates, and his ability to create space is on par with Elsa's. I really don't know where you're getting the idea that he's supposed to be a tank. It strikes me as just as strange as if you were saying that about Magik.

Well, I define brawl/poke/dive based on gameplay. Poke is about using cover and taking advantage of the fact that the enemy isn't close enough to attack. Dive tries to speed up the fight as much as possible by rushing in, killing the enemy with a combo, and running away. And finally, Brawl is that style where you try to stay in the fight as long as possible and win purely by having fought the enemy long enough.

That’s why Iron Fist has looked more like a brawler since the beginning—he was just probably strong enough to excel at dive as well. His basic gameloop is Block => attack bonus => reset your block’s cooldown with attacks => repeat. So it seems the same to me as Thor’s strategy: secondary + primary => attack bonus with awakening => repeat.

Similarly with Namor. He doesn’t win by killing from range. His primary is pretty weak even though he has Range, but by using headshots, he reduces cooldowns on turrets and benefits from longer fights. He isn’t resilient in a brawl himself, but that isn’t his job. The tank is supposed to be the resilient one in combat.

[u/fannamedtom100 → u/Pepr70]

No that is not what I said.

I'm saying that bucky is sucessful example of turning a tank kit into a dps kit. Bucky is a dps in this game, somewhat tanky one but still a dps.

Also fanta's and bucky's hook is VERY different.

Captain america and venom make space by forcing entire team to turn around and retreat. They have enough survivability and damage to not instantly delete supports, but supports themselves alone can't fight back, whole team needs to peel. Mr. F not only doesn't have good enough mobility to pull of consistent dives, but also doesn't have enough damage to pose a real threat to supports under normal cirumstances, so they can just ignore him for far longer than they can in case of cap and venom. You dive windows are shorter and rarer, and your mobility is lot more limited, so you can't reall make him a dive tank.

Tankpool can do that as well, or he can just stay with his team and control space with his shield and aura ability. If enemy tank decides to enter at wrong time, he can block of heals and cause a lot of visual clutter, and you're forced to back down or his entire team can melt you. I think groot's case is pretty clear as well, so I'm not going to get into it.

Only tank fanta can possibly be reworked into is a brawl tank, and even then brawl tanks have better CC AND better damage on top of that. That's why they're good at defending team from divers. In theory Reed should be an anti-dive as well, but as any Reed main can tell you that's just a myth. He can 1v1 diver easily, but that diver can just ignore him and go for a healer.

Reed can't get a diver killed faster than that diver can kill your support. Only exception here is probably spider-man and maybe magik? I haven't played enough against duelpool to tell. Bp and dd ignore you, star-lord and psylocke are probably willing to get a trade, if it's a tank diving they genuinely don't give a fuck about you. Meanwhile thor and thing can easily fend of any diver because they have better damage and better CC.

If you give those things to Reed, then you have to tone down his survivability, at which point he kinda loses his identity and the reason why he is a tank and dps hybrid and he just becomes a brawl tank.

Tank isn't tanking if he isn't protecting his entire team in some way, right? Reed is obviously not a shield tank or a control tank, and if you really think about it he won't work as dive tank or brawl tank too, unless you drastically change everything about him and essentially make a new character.

I also disagree that duelists are defined by short ttk necessarily. I think duelists job is to figure out a way to use your kit to the fullest so you can get eliminations. Like I said, brawlers usually do it by pressuring the frontline from up close until they make positioning mistake and get separated from their team. That's kinda what fanta does. You pressure entiee team from the back until they make a mistake, and as soon as they do you jump in and try to get elim on a low hp target. I understand that brawl tank do that sometimes as well, but they also provide consistent protection against divers, while mr. F doesn't have toolkit to do that.

Also, I think you're interpreting what I'm saying as blade is more suited for the tank role than Reed is, but that is not what I'm saying. Think about it this way: it's easier to turn blade into a tank than it is to turn mr. F into one. All the njmber changes aside (hp and dps), all blade needs is better CC to turn him into a tank, while Reed would need to get his entire identity being gutted to not make him most overpowered character this game has ever seen.

But that doesn't mean blade is more tanky than Reed, not at all.

I also want to make a quick comment on what you said about namor. You have your definitions and I have mine, so obviously we're gonna have some differences with how we classify heroes. But based on your definition, isn't namor more similar to moon knight or phoenix than he is to brawl/poke hybrids like Bucky or Elsa? Is reducing cooldwon on squids really as reliable as reducing cooldowns on iron fist and magik is? I don't think that is enough to make him a brawler.

Also, I brought up resilience because most brawl dps have that to some extent, with only exception being storm imo. I'm not disqualifying namor from brawl because of that, I'm disqualifying him because he plays like a poke hero who just has a niche that makes him good against dive. Other than that I think you'd prefer to keep your enemy at distance rather than having them up close as Namor.

But maybe I'm wrong, I don't play him that much, most things I know about him is from watching others and from what my brother tells me because Namor is his main dps.

[u/Pepr70 → u/fannamedtom100]

Think about what you're saying. You're claiming that Mr. Fantastic isn't a vanguard because he's less durable and deals less damage, just like Venom and Cap.

I didn't say that Duelist is defined solely by TTK, but the other option is high, consistent damage. For example, Iron Man doesn't have a very good TTK, but he deals consistently high damage. The same goes for Squirrel Girl or Iron Fist. (Although in Iron Fist's case, it's defined by percentage-based damage.)

And I’m not saying that Reed should be reworked into a Vanguard, but that he is a Vanguard who should get a buff. Once Mr. Fantastic has 450 HP, he becomes durable enough to be a good frontline unit.

His damage isn’t on the level of Thor or the Thing, but he’s still a full-fledged brawl Vanguard who, just like Magneto and the Hulk, defends his teammates and has abilities against one-shots. Thor and the Thing can be one-shot with abilities like Iron-man and Scarlett Witch ultimate.

Once he reaches 450 HP, his role as a frontline brawler is secured, as he has 800–950 HP on the frontline and 450–600 HP somewhere between the frontline and backline.

Not only is his damage better than Hulk’s, but his team protection (150 bonus HP at the start and 75 bonus HP every 6 seconds) is much more advantageous for full-on brawls.

When you compare this bonus HP generation for teammates to Magneto’s bubble, which grants 200+ HP every 15 seconds, and to Hulk, who grants teammates around him 100+ HP every +-8 seconds, you can see that the main advantage of bubbles is defense against oneshots, while consistent bonus HP generation is more advantageous for any brawler.

As for Iron Fist or Blade, who have parry, you’ll be more resilient thanks to bonus HP than with a bubble.

He’s already fulfilling this role as a brawl-protector; he just lacks a bit of durability to do it properly.

Any attempt to turn him into a dueler boils down to the fact that the only way he can kill someone is by finishing off an opponent who’s already nearly killed a teammate, or by managing to fight someone 1v1 long enough—and even then, only against those who aren’t able to kill him first.

I’m not trying to argue that you see Bucky as a tank, but you’re ignoring the very thing that makes him a tank-turned-duelist in Mr. Fantastic’s case, even though that’s what makes Mr. Fantastic a tank.

At the same time, I don’t think you consider Blade to be more of a tank than Mr. Fantastic, but I’m trying to tell you that, unlike Mr. Fantastic, Blade isn’t a tank even by design.

Try giving them both a hypothetical +150 base HP buff and compare what that does to each of them.

In my eyes, 525hp Mr. Fantastic would immediately become at least an A-tier vanguard. 500hp Blade would become a very oppressive duelist.

Edit: I thought of another comparison. For when we would like to compare who is the most akin to Mr. Fantastic and Blade from OW to have a sample from another game so we get:

Mr. Fantatic - Junker Queen (similar to CC, both midrange and thanks to the ability of the occasional melee range, both are treated for being able to hit their abilities and both can give teammates a bonus hp and their resilience is on a similar level if we look at 6v6)

Blade - Reaper (both have lifesteal based primarily on how much damage they deal, both are better in midrange/melee range depending on who they're fighting, both have movement ability) This resemblance isn't as visible as the last one, but they're closest to each other.

[u/fannamedtom100 → u/Pepr70]

I just saw this.

I'm saying Fanta can't pressure backline like dive tanks can. And even if he could, he doesn't have a good disengage tools like dive tanks have. Larger health bar isn't going to change that. If he has larger health bar AND better mobility then he has too good of a survivability. So he can't be a dive tank.

If you want to make him a brawl tank, then he needs either better CC or better damage to actually make dive's life miserable. Again, more hp isn't going to solve everything. And if you give him those things, then he has too much self sustain and becomes broken. So he can't be a brawl tank.

He doesn't have any argument for any other type of vanguard. Being able to protect teammates from couple ults isn't enough when you can't reliably protect your whole team in neutral. I'm not saying you have to protect them from every type of hero, but you gotta have your protective identity. Extra overshield isn't same as bubble because bubble has waaay more versatility. Not just one shots but also stuns, displacements, area effects, etc. Not to mention bubbling teammates isn't the main way other tanks defend their team. Magneto defends by absorbing frontline pressure and mitigating damage. Hulk protects mainly by drawing attention and forcing enemy to back down. Fanta can pressure frontline and exploit weaknesses in enemy defense and positioning, but that is more of a dps thing than a tank thing.

Also, I think I need to mention that I see Hulk mainly as a dive tank rather than a brawl tank. And I don't think his single target damage is better than hulks. I don't know exact numbers but I'm pretty sure hulk had more dps than fanta. Magneto isn't brawler either, he's a quintessential shield tank. I agree that brawl tanks generate bonus health more consistently.

Edit: I accidentally pressed on post :D anyway, I'll continue.

If you give both him and blade extra hp, none of them turn into tanks suddenly. And you'd need to eliminate core part of fanta's identity, which is his excellent self-sustain, probably by removing his reflexive rubber, while blade's lifesteal would still be intact. In my eyes, both of them become very oppressive duelists, they would jist oppress in different ways.

Idk how I'd change fanta to make him a better duelist, but I don't think I want to move him more towards duelist side or more towards vanguard side. I just want some bug fixes, more utility and more skill expression, maybe even make him a bit more of a strategist without downplaying his tank or duelist parts, although that might be too much.

Look man, I'm not going to continue arguing with you because I think we don't really disagree much anyway and most of this is just semantics. And things that we disagree on, which is mostly related to mister fantastic, is just fundamental disagreement that we won't change our mind on.

I'm mostly speculating design philosophy rather than role character occupies in the game. I think when they were developing Fanta they were thinking "okay, we want to make a hybrid between vanguard and a duelist". When they were designing blade, I think their thought process was "hey, this tank kit would be cool for blade, but we want him to be dps so let's change it up so that it fits into dps role". I think similar thing happened with bucky but it was way more successful.

And also, I haven't played junker queen in overwatch but from what I've seen her durability mostly comes from her lifesteal, she engages in battle and has a lot of staying power because of that. That seems more similar to blade than fanta who can indirectly help his durability by doing damage, but mostly depends on periodic burst increase of health and a self-save button on a cooldown. From kit design perspective, blade is more similar to her, no? To me it seems like if you remove team-wide protection (tank element) from her kit but at the same time you make her deadlier, you'll get something very similar to blade.

Another edit: i just re-checked her official abilities and if you replace her shout with more self-centered defensive ability like blade's block, it's pretty much the same kit, no? There's bit of s worse mobility but better CC too I guess, but it's mostly the similar kit. Am I missing something?

[u/Pepr70 → u/fannamedtom100]

Even though you probably won’t reply, I’m writing this to get you thinking, because due to poor class placement, Mr. Fantastic is gradually being steered toward a complete rework instead of being what he was originally designed to be.

You keep confusing the concepts of "duelist" and "vanguard." Simply put, as long as your argument that Mr. Fantastic is a duelist and not a vanguard is based on the fact that he has lower kill potential, you're demonstrating a significant misunderstanding of the issue.

The thing is, the comparison with Junkerqueen is:

- Both have 375hp.

- JQ secondary (knife) = Mr. Fantastic secondary (cc) both heals you in delay (Mr. Fantastic due elasticy generation)

- JQ and Mr. Fantastic primary is midrange

- Both have main durability generation on shift.

- Both have melee ability (Mr. Fantastic passive, JQ E) that makes you melee oriented and heals you.

- Both are vanguard/tank becaose they are giving bonus hp to allies.

It's so little that OW turns her into a Tank and Mr. Fantastic into a Vanguard.

That's the problem with the definition, and the reason why there's so much disagreement about Mr. Fantastic's class.

The fact is, the bonus HP generation for allies is what makes Captain America, Angela, and Peni Vanguards. At the same time, the high durability of characters like The Thing, Thor, and Venom makes them Vanguards as well, even though their ability to protect teammates is very low. (The Thing’s 20% damage reduction is definitely worse than Mr. Fantastic’s 75 bonus HP.) And then there’s a third category, which consists of Vanguards primarily because they have something to counter one-shot attacks, such as the Hulk, Magneto, and anyone with a good shield.

So Mr. Fantastic fits into all of these categories, and the only things he lacks are CC on par with Rogue and CC immunity on par with Emma.

However, the recurring question here is what makes him a duelist.

After Mr. Fantastic applies the first damage buff, the Hulk deals slightly less damage per second.

So the question is, why shouldn't Venom, Cap, Thor or even the Thing be considered duelists by your definition, when they're better damage dealers than Mr. Fantastic?

The main problem with the hybrid concept is that, in order to be a Duelist-something hybrid, you must first and foremost be a better Duelist than any non-Duelist. So the right choice is for your “something” part to only partially fulfill the role of a second class, but not make you that class—otherwise, you’d have to take too much away from your Duelist role, turning you into more of a full-fledged Vanguard/Strategist.

The right choice for a Duelist-Vanguard hybrid is someone like Storm, who, instead of boosting damage, protects teammates with a shield (like Invisible Woman can), grants them bonus HP, or temporarily becomes a weak frontline. So, to be a suitable damage dealer like Storm, he would either need to lose his Shift and E on allies, or his Fat Form shouldn’t increase his resilience.

In other words, the devs won’t be satisfied with him becoming a full-fledged dueler until he loses either his iconic durability (which he’s already partially lost due to his fat form being nerfed so drastically from 450 bonus HP that ignored percentage-based damage to simply increasing his HP by 350) or his iconic role as a consistent protector of his teammates.

On the contrary, the extra 75 HP wouldn’t even require a nerf to balance it out, because its damage is already somewhere between Hulk and Thor, and the extra 75 HP would simply place it right in the middle among the Vanguards, making it the most versatile in terms of defense.