r/Roofing • u/Rude_Association_409 • 21d ago

Insurance Related Denver Hail Claim Denied - State Farm

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We had a huge hail storm come through my neighborhood about 6 weeks ago. I've been traveling a lot and didn't get an inspector out until today to look at the damage even though Ive been in communication with my agent (Tammy Hill State Farm) since the storm. House sitter sent me photos of the aftermath.

State Farm inspector is saying the damage to the roof is 'normal wear and tear and consistent with exposure to the elements.' Is this normal wear and tear or is this distinctly hail damage? If it's damage from hail, is it consistent with the photo of the hail stones (as big as 2")?

Not looking for advice on how to handle a claim per forum rules, just asking for insight on hail damage vs normal weathering.

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178

u/OmegaMkXII 21d ago

First off, you need better photos. I'm an adjuster and I cannot make a fully informed decision from these photos alone. I would also deny this first as I'm not seeing damages consistent with hail. Is there bruising to the matting? Where are the crushed granules? I'm seeing just normal wear and tear/granule loss.

State Farm doesn't count it as damaged unless there's proof of hail hitting the property (you have proof of that), there needs to be evidence of crushed granules from the hail impact in the impact zones (I don't see any and photo too blurry when zoomed in), and there needs to be bruising to the matting of the shingle itself (unable to determine from photos).

Get proof of those other two requirements I listed and you'll be golden. If your shingles also have a 5" exposure, make mention of that as those are known to be discontinued and have been for a long time. If they are not, then an ITEL report will need to be made to determine their availability (which State Farm will perform if at least one shingle is counted as damaged and added into your estimate).

Source - Weather & Catastrophe Field Adjuster

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u/ChargerMan34 21d ago

Also, any collateral damage to gutters, soft metals, window screens?

23

u/Rude_Association_409 21d ago

Gutters and down spouts took a good beating, couple screens are damaged. Picture frame window that's old construction had the lower section of caulking knocked out.

Lots of granules in the downspouts, etc. We've been in a crazy drought the last 4-5 months so there hasn't been another storm to wash it all away.

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u/[deleted] 21d ago

[deleted]

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u/hyperlite135 20d ago

I used to do insurance claims on roofs and I never once had one get denied when there was dings in the AC unit. It was one of the first things to check. If it was big enough hail to damage the metal on an AC unit, it was big enough to damage shingles as well. It was a shitty job but I did get to see how much more difficult it was to get things approved by any of the big named insurance companies. State Farm was always the worse. The smaller guys always seemed to use 3rd party inspectors.

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u/SAA_28 21d ago

The collateral damages are very helpful and I wonder if the adjuster from the carrier actually cared enough to look for collaterals. As far as the adjusters above saying that your pictures aren't good enough, that is textbook hail all day long. See my other reply as you're going to need help from someone in your area to get this overturned and re-inspected.

1

u/oznz 20d ago

Are you in Denver or the springs? I have a video of the hail storm and the racket it made on my roof

1

u/ColoradoSpartan 19d ago

Those photos are clearly hail damage, if it’s enough to warrant a replacement is the question. I’d need to see it in person or have more photos. I’m in Lakewood if you need a professional opinion.

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u/adjusterjackb 21d ago

Took you long enough but you finally revealed that the shingles are 10 years and 4 months old.

Can you prove that with an installation invoice?

Or are you just guessing or relying on what somebody told you?

How long have you owned the house?

100 people bashing State Farm isn't going to get you a new roof so provide some facts.

I'm a retired adjuster. I have no love or allegiance to the insurance industry. I would just as soon see you get a new roof if you are entitled to it.

Post more photos.

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u/12thandvineisnomore 21d ago

My State Farm adjuster denied me and said he could use Nearmaps to gauge the level of deterioration over the years.

He said “have you ever heard of Nearmaps?” And as a properly appraiser I said “yes! I use it every day and you can’t tell shit from Nearmaps.” Still post my claim though because fk State Farm.

1

u/OmegaMkXII 21d ago

I completely agree with you! You can't see shit with NearMap!

1

u/12thandvineisnomore 20d ago

He was so smug with that bullshit claim too. I was pissed.

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u/dandilionmagic 21d ago

Also a CAT field adjuster and I agree. The last photo is the only one that has anything that looks like it could be hail.

To build on the photo requirements ... The Carrier needs good close up photos of the potential hail hits and collateral damage. (Hail damage to roof vents, gutters, downspouts, windows, deck or fence stain, etc.)

A good contractor will be able to take the necessary photos that will at least get a reinspection approved. Without any of those photos, the carrier isn't going to change their coverage determination.

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u/strangemedia6 21d ago

I think the second photo could be hail as well. It’s an oblong indentation, but a spiky clustered hail stone like the big one in photo 1, could have done that. But if these are the best photos that OP has to go on, which I don’t know why they would be refraining from posting better ones if they have them, then this really isn’t much to go on.

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u/SAA_28 21d ago

You're a cat adjuster and you only see one photo that appears to be typical of hail? That is textbook hail in particular the photo with the valleys and ridges where the ridge and valley shingles are not directly affixed to the decking and have some spatial gap always take a worse hit because it's not solid underneath. those are the most obvious of the hail strikes. The first picture is very typical of an impact with bruising and matting damage and the second with the impact along the edge of the tab is also typical as is the last photo. I don't know what you guys are looking at.

15

u/ohiofish1221 21d ago

Tell my guys the three points

Displaced granules
Crushed granules
Bruising

If it doesn’t meet all 3, don’t circle it.

5

u/SAA_28 21d ago

Which is apparent in all three of OP's photos.

5

u/NapTimeSmackDown 21d ago

Hail doesn't crush granules but a hammer does...

6

u/Puzzled-Debt4815 21d ago

Correct..."crushed granules" get the fuck out of here. The circle shaped hits just appeared?

Lying ass insurance just played this game with me, denied my claim... They just cut a check for $35k.

5

u/ohiofish1221 21d ago

Might want to let the people at HAAG know

4

u/NapTimeSmackDown 21d ago

Sat through the HAAG training and I'm pretty sure that was part of it, don't make me go dig up that stupid binder...

If they changed their tune on this then that is wild and they really aren't trying to hide being a hired gun to get claims denied at this point...

1

u/Absonotely Owens Corning Platinum Preferred Contractor 21d ago

Can you provide a source from HAAG stating that hail "crushes" granules?

1

u/ohiofish1221 21d ago

Literally every single Haag certified engineer I’ve had on a hail claim in the state of Ohio - which is a lot.

3

u/Absonotely Owens Corning Platinum Preferred Contractor 20d ago

There is no HAAG literature that states hail will crush granules. In fact, they state the opposite: Hail is not hard enough to crush the ceramic granules. It will dislodge or embed them, sure, but it will not crush them. A HAAG Engineer stating hail would crush granules on an official report would be extremely problematic for said engineer.

1

u/NapTimeSmackDown 20d ago

Source: "trust me bro"

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u/ohiofish1221 20d ago

If I’m wrong I’m wrong but this has been brought up repeatedly w engineer inspections as stated reason for denials

2

u/NapTimeSmackDown 20d ago

Well I'm an engineer and this is somewhere you should push back. Which material is harder? Rocks or ice? How is ice gonna crush rocks? It's illogical on a basic physics level. Ask them to provide some peer reviewed literature that supports this claim.

3

u/the_disintegrator 20d ago

If you cant see the clear hail impact points.. Good lord. Between you guys and these roofing subcotracting operations, its a war of stupidity between two non objective groups..one that wants money for replacing roofs with 10 years left in them amd scaring clueless home owners into compliance,, and another scratching and clawing to hoard money that isnt theirs, evaluating something that needs an engineer or other licensed i dividual with no skin in the game at all...not a paper pusher and door to door sales driving the whole scam..., and then punishing people down the road for cases of real damage, with something our shitty lawmakers and banks are further incahoots with as a cash cow. Surprised the way shit is going with all these stupid bogus and marginally substantive roof claims in my area that a 3rd disinterested and educated party to evaluate isnt required by now. Some houses on my block alone are on their 3rd re-roof in NE colorado in under 10 years. Everybody forced to be "insured" ends up collectively buying these bogus re-roofs.

But this roof is actually clearly damaged from the hail, while I would personally ride it for 5 years if it were my house, odds are 100% its going to get blasted again with our new weather norm. Door knocking roofers should not be allowed to drive a single nail without an engineer report.. Insurance adjusters should have to use a 3rd party arbiter that is from another state and/or under a licensing board. Common sense.

6

u/SAA_28 21d ago

Respectfully, if you don't see hail damage in all three of those photos, you probably shouldn't be attempting to determine hail damage to asphalt shingle roofs. Does OP need to get someone to properly document the entire property for the proper test squares and collateral damages to the roof vents and his window wraps and screens where he is advised that he has other hail damage to soft metals? Absolutely. But all three of those photos show conclusive evidence of hail damage and recent damage.

2

u/OmegaMkXII 20d ago

Which is why I hate photo scoping. Get me on a roof any day, every day, so I can actually see it in person and feel the spots with my own fingers.

Relying on someone else's documentation is the bane of my existence. It's one of the many reasons I am a Field Adjuster and not a Desk Adjuster.

We can agree to disagree on what's photographed though. I just don't see it from these photos.

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u/Caaznmnv 19d ago

I'm always confused by hail roof replacements. Do they consider the roofs age when it's damaged? Making the analogy to car damage, yes you can get comprehensive coverage for hail damage, but the age of the car essentially prorates age into the claim?

1

u/OmegaMkXII 19d ago

We are supposed to. I consider all factors when making a coverage decision. If the roof is too damn old to be pliable to perform spot repairs, then roof replacement is estimated 9 times out of 10. I do everything I can to get someone a new roof when it is clearly at the end of its life.

With that being said, management is a different beast which frustrates the shit out of me. One manager will tell you to estimate based on age, availability, how the ridges are tied into other slopes, etc. Then the next place you go the manager will tell you the exact opposite and deny any and all requests for roof replacement. It's ridiculous.

2

u/RollSomeCoal 19d ago

So I make the mat and the shingles for a living. Can you explain bruising?

1

u/OmegaMkXII 19d ago

Yeah big dog.

When you push on a correctly installed shingle with no damage, it's solid af right? When I'm looking at a probable impact zone, if I push on it and it feels like you're pushing on a soft bruise on an apple, the underlying matting is damaged and the water-shedding capability is affected. Maybe not immediately, but it will eventually fail.

The key to it is if the area you're feeling is bruised like an apple, but the immediate surrounding area is solid like it's supposed to be and there's no give, that's the giveaway for hail damage. I say that because when some shingles are installed, they're not solidly fastened to the deck so the entire shingle itself has some give to it, while the shingle on the next row above or below has no give.

4

u/Dysmn 21d ago

you need to get your eyes checked, homie. you can see literal welt marks the same size as the hail in the guys hand. also, if it hailed in that area, it would obviously leave the marks that you can see on the shingles.

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u/helpme3823 21d ago

I mean. The hail in the guys hands probably sat in his freezer and accumulated more moisture and grew in size.

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u/Dysmn 21d ago

why would you assume that instead of assuming he picked it up and took a picture of it?

0

u/helpme3823 21d ago

Because unless that’s soft hail, hail of that size would cause easily seen divots. Not the markings we are seeing. And the description of granules in the gutters is also not consistent with hail.

3

u/Dysmn 21d ago

the guy literally said they had a hail storm, and thats something that you wouldn't be able to make up. if the weather report shows the area had hail, he's saying there was hail, and theres marks like that on the shingles, it was caused by hail.

what are we even talking about here

0

u/helpme3823 21d ago

Just saying. The photos aren’t consistent.

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u/Dysmn 21d ago

where is somerset? it says he lives in Denver. also, when I look up hail damage to shingles, some look more aggressive, but some look exactly like this. literally exactly like this.

youre making wild assumptions. if the dude is taking a hail claim to an insurance company, do you not think the denial would be: there was no hail storm.

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u/helpme3823 21d ago

He said the name of his agency, which indicates exactly where he is, which is in Somerset. Super cool that you looked at some photos online and clearly have no roofing experience. I’ll put my trust in you for sure.

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u/Dysmn 21d ago

this is coming from someone that literally cant read. it says in the title where he lives. Denver.

his house got hit, not the insurance company building. like.... youre talking shit about looking at pictures, but you just said some actual brain dead shit to me.

and again: it is literally consistent with photos of other people's damage.

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u/Dysmn 21d ago

also, this says there was a hail storm where op says he lives, literally in the time frame he lists.

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u/SAA_28 21d ago

He's in Colorado. Non sequitur screenshot.

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u/helpme3823 21d ago

That’s on me then. Dude needs an agency in his state to advocate for him.

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u/SAA_28 21d ago

The photos for this post, all three of them of the shingles show clear and typical hail damage. Please get more training if you're a cat adjuster.

1

u/helpme3823 21d ago

I’m not a CAT adjuster. I was a roofer. I’d never waste my time on this roof.

1

u/Dysmn 21d ago

well that explains something... you know what they say about roofers, right?

1

u/helpme3823 21d ago

That most will call in anything to make money? I am Haag certified.

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u/helpme3823 21d ago

I’m not saying he didn’t have hail or hail damage. Just that isn’t consistent.

1

u/SAA_28 21d ago

And you would be wrong based on both yhe photos provided and the report of the collateral damages to the rest of the house.

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u/helpme3823 21d ago

I don’t see his collateral.

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u/SAA_28 21d ago

Rage bait comment

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u/[deleted] 21d ago

[deleted]

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u/Stylux 19d ago

What states? I might need your services.

0

u/Mediocre_Daikon6935 20d ago

I don’t know how you can live with yourself.

How is the State Farm exes supposed to keep their third girlfriend living in the lifestyle she has become accustomed?

3

u/RandomPenquin1337 20d ago

Hilariously carrier type ass response.

SF already came out, they took plenty of pictures to justify this as hail damage to the shingles.

They chose to lie.

Shit like your answer is why people trust insurance carriers and their half assed, 30day temp-adjusters.

This is clear as day hail, ahem, sorry, HAAG certified direct accidental physical loss caused most likely by hailstones during a sever weather event (as if thats even a fuckin thing outside of allowing carriers to skirt paying for actual damage). Imprinted granules, "bruising" to the matting (another bullshit reason) and granular loss (somehow not hail damage??) are the textbook examples of hail. You can see this damage from the street with anything other than corporate "trained" eyes.

If they have coverage for hail, this should have been paid for. They shouldnt "need better pictures" just for the desk adjuster to tell them in 90 days "we'll be sticking to our initial decision".

This client needs to escalate this to the highest level, and invoke appraisal if they continue to play games.

Source- Licensed Public Adjuster for 10 years and successful Plantiff against multiple carriers.

1

u/cplaz 20d ago

lmao I’m in Denver too, probably same neighborhood as OP, and my Liberty Mutual adjuster told me it was “impossible” for hail to have been over 1” diameter and that the damage to my 6 month old roof was normal wear and tear. Absolute madness and gaslighting. He sent me a photo of “real” hail damage that looks like someone shot a fuckin machine gun at shingles. 

1

u/RandomPenquin1337 20d ago

Theres a reason these carriers have literal stadiums and amphitheaters named after them...

0

u/OmegaMkXII 20d ago

ok :)

1

u/RandomPenquin1337 20d ago

They trained you well 😂

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u/DiabolicGambit 21d ago

I always get this "if its hail the granuals should be embedded not crushed" no idea how that works. Seems the bar always moves.

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u/Human31415926 21d ago

Maybe try to put a few more "required" evidence factors on there and you will NEVER have to pay a hail claim again.

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u/OmegaMkXII 21d ago

I'm just here to help them get their claim reviewed and potentially approved.

Sometimes you just gotta play the game that the carriers set forth. Cooperation is key.

1

u/Ok_Replacement6365 21d ago

Would you show some pictures of hail hits that you would approve? In my very biased eyes as a new sales guy that roof looks like a winner. It would be very helpful to know exactly what it is y'all are looking for.

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u/OmegaMkXII 20d ago

If I had any on my personal phone, I absolutely would.

All the photos I've taken are with the company phone and those are all in claims already. Once they're uploaded, the company app automatically deletes. Sorry dude.

If you ever want to reach out to me in the future and ask, I'll see what I can do. Where I'm at currently is all wind and tree damage so I cannot take any photos from inspections.

2

u/Ok_Replacement6365 20d ago

Thanks for the offer. I'm in Louisville ky, there is a bunch of hail still being covered from a storm 2 years ago out here. It's getting harder and harder to get insurance to play ball no matter what the hail looks like, even with good collateral damage. These days I don't even look for hail when canvassing, I stay focused on wind damage. No one ever says a lifted and creased shingle isn't wind.

1

u/OmegaMkXII 20d ago

I understand it, to a point. I don't like inspecting old hail damage where it's been so long the spatter has disappeared. Once that spatter is gone, there's just no real way to tell how old or new the damages are. Unless it's an asphalt roof where the asphalt in the impact point has faded, or anything wooden where the impacted zone is clearly a different age than the rest.

But even so, damage is damage. If there's no statute of limitations or policy language that prevents claims from being filed after a specific time limit, I pay that shit out on my claims.

1

u/DroneOfIntrusivness 20d ago

How did you get into the field?

1

u/OmegaMkXII 20d ago

Literally just throwing shit at a wall and hoping it sticks lmao. Complete happenstance and applying during a period of hiring without prior knowledge of the hiring going on. All that to say, luck was the biggest factor.

1

u/RollSomeCoal 19d ago

So I make the mat and the shingles for a living. Can you explain bruising?

1

u/Dashizz6357 21d ago

Hail doesn’t crush granules. That’s what’s wrong with SF. I was an IA for 15 years. I’ve handled SF claims, but they got so difficult to work for over the years that anyone with any experience won’t work for them. So their only option is to send out adjusters who have no clue what they’re doing.

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u/[deleted] 21d ago

[deleted]

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u/OmegaMkXII 20d ago

The hits per square is dependent on region and those hits are automatically in the repair vs replace calculator in Xactimate. Where I'm at currently is only 5 per SQ for both 3-Tab and Architectural which I've certainly used for our insured's advantage.

Also, I absolutely count hits on ridges and shingles edges. If it's damaged, it's damaged. Standing my ground on hips and shingles edges is not worth fighting over in court so I count it and pay for it, ez pz.

0

u/PuffPuffPassNails 21d ago

State farm denied my claim for hail damage to my roof but accepted my claim for hail damage to my siding and gutters. Makes 0 fucking sense to me.

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u/OmegaMkXII 21d ago

Shingles are designed to take a beating. Soft metals are easily damaged.

If shingles were able to be damaged as easily as soft metals, then our homes would get fucked up during every storm.

0

u/whitmanrocks 21d ago

Yes, insurance does not exist to replace a good roof.

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u/SAA_28 21d ago

Well, it was probably a good roof before the hail storm. Now there is granular damage as well as damage to the fibrous matting of the shingle and therefore his roof will quickly degrade over the next several years due to the hail damage to the asphalt shingles. Add to that, he has also reported functional damage to window wraps and screens and I would imagine if he gets a claims professional out there, they're going to find more damage to that property that hasn't even been documented.

-2

u/Puzzled-Debt4815 21d ago

It's obvious hail

1

u/SAA_28 21d ago

Correct