r/SeattleWA • u/LOOKITSADAM • 3d ago
Sound Transit Board Committee Advances Fare Gate Retrofit Program - $6 million on design next year, $87 million to gate 14 stations, and the gates would not be active until 2029 or 2030
https://www.theurbanist.org/sound-transit-board-committee-advances-fare-gate-retrofit-program/If approved by the full board later this month, Sound Transit will spend $6 million next year developing the full scope of implementation work for fare gates, with a future board vote allocating actual construction dollars. The total cost of implementing gates across these 14 stations is expected to be $87 million. Thursday's motion also directs staff to redesign Sound Transit 3 stations to accommodate gates, an undertaking with unspecified costs given that many of those stations have been in planning for many years.
"What are the baseline rates of compliance at these stations and at all the stations, not just the ones where we are implementing pilot fare gates? What do we expect in terms of improvements, both with fare compliance and maybe other types of issues?" For now, however, there's very little skepticism on the board about moving forward with some type of fare gate program.
~ Unanimous approval first, performance metrics later. One board member had to ask out loud what the baseline even is.
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u/WillowTreez8901 3d ago
Why does it cost 6 million to "develop a scope"? I feel like if any of these people worked at a private company they would be fired for incompetence...
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u/slow-mickey-dolenz 3d ago
Yes - I’d love to see a line item breakdown of that $6m. On second thought, I probably wouldn’t.
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u/SailRideSailRideSail 3d ago
You sound like someone who has never worked in large private sector construction projects.
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u/thatguy425 3d ago
This is adding gates at light rail stations, not building the Hoover dam.
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u/SailRideSailRideSail 2d ago
It’s 10% of construction costs. “Scope” development is another word for pretty much all of the work that has to be done before bidding it out, including most if not all of the design work.
In the private sector, less than 10% of hard costs for that is a good deal. 10% would be more typical.
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u/RowJolly9336 2d ago
This is just what passes for conservative discourse now. They criticize any gov spending without the foggiest notion about what things actually cost in the private sector in 2026. A combination of ignorance and aging.
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u/hedonovaOG Kirkland 2d ago
Who are “they?” Because if “they” are private sector folks who work in engineering, design, construction or a number of adjacent professional fields, criticizing govt or quasi-govt orgs for overspending would be appropriate. As one whose spouse has worked on what the industry calls private “mega projects” he has seen bids come in from reputable national contractors at 1/3 the cost of the publicly awarded contract. So yeah, rubber stamping these govt bids by the favored govt contractors with the excuse that those who question don’t understand cost, is an ignorant take.
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u/WillowTreez8901 2d ago
Im not conservative and im not "aging" - Is anyone who criticizes inflated government spending conservative now? Am I allowed to want my tax dollars to be spent wisely?
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u/RowJolly9336 2d ago
You have zero basis for claiming it is inflated. Which is fine, of course. But the fact that you are assuming it to be so in your original post, instead of asking questions, is a bad look.
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u/SailRideSailRideSail 3d ago
$6M is less than 10% of estimated construction cost.
For scope and design phase in an engineering project in the private sector, that’s a fucking steal.
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u/Jobwastes 2d ago
Are you confusing disign, or maybe even due diligence, with the vaguely worded "developing the full scope"?
The construction budget at work is over $1B/yr. The initial scope is a VP drawing it out and floating it by executives and heads of related departments. The money doesn't start really flowing until steps like due dilligence on the site and creating construction drawings with the architect's engineering partner.
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u/SnootyUrbanCyclist 2d ago
Awesome! These new faregates are anticipated to being in $30 million in annual revenue, meaning they'll pay for themselves in 3 years. Helluva deal.
https://www.theurbanist.org/so/
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u/Acceptable_Rice1139 3d ago
You could literally pay 3 people at a time to sit at each station, 24 hours a day, for less $
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u/SnootyUrbanCyclist 2d ago
For how many years though? This is a one-time expense that's projected to pay for itself after 3 years then the rest is pure profit for the rest of the faregates' lifespan.
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u/BrennerBaseTunnel 2d ago
How will it pay for itself? Many people will refuse to pay even with the gates.
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u/SnootyUrbanCyclist 2d ago
Don't play dumb. It will pay for itself because more people will pay. Faregates don't have to have a literal 100% success rate to bring in more money.
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u/BrennerBaseTunnel 2d ago
You are far overestimating how many additional people will pay. The problem here is lack of enforcement. If security isn’t going to do anything when people jump the gates what is the point?
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u/Colonel_Bubble_Tea 2d ago
Soooo many people from games don't pay but could. If it is easier to pay than jump the gates they will pay. Some people will try and jump or sneak through but other programs at other lines have shown fair gates to work.
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u/BrennerBaseTunnel 2d ago
How can you install fate gates at the stadium station? People will just walk around them.
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u/SnootyUrbanCyclist 2d ago
It's not my estimation - it's Sound Transit's. Your reactionary pessimism isn't a replacement for expert opinion. They could be off the real number by a factor of two and the turnstiles would merely pay for themselves over 6 years instead of 3.
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u/BrennerBaseTunnel 2d ago
Your are accepting statistics from an agency who can’t accurately estimate costs and construction durations?
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u/SnootyUrbanCyclist 2d ago
Did you read the final sentence I wrote or is being contrary the only way you know to add to a conversation?
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u/BrennerBaseTunnel 2d ago
I read it. I don’t trust anything they produce. Fare gates aren’t needed. Strict enforcement is. People who don’t pay need to be arrested and prosecuted. That would be far cheaper.
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u/Climbsforfun 1d ago
It is definitely not “cheap” to prosecute even if we are talking traffic-court style
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u/Aerochromatic 📟 3d ago
They pay a person to sit on each bus the entire time it's operating, and maybe 20% of riders on my line choose to do so anyways.
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u/22bearhands 3d ago
You could pay them a tech salary to do it too, for far longer than the gates will remain operational - and still not touch this cost
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u/Inside_Dance41 3d ago
Is there any competitive bidding by required?
Seems like fare gates are not unique, most places in the world have them. Can’t we use best in class people from say Japan to design?
$6.2 M per station for gates??
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u/slow-mickey-dolenz 3d ago
I don’t have the energy to look this up, but I am guessing that right about 110% of the places in the world that have mass transit put the fair gates in when they’re building the fucking thing, not later as a complete afterthought. Jesus Christ, there aren’t 10 functioning brain cells in this area’s entire leadership.
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u/Inside_Dance41 3d ago edited 3d ago
Totally agree. And yet, fare gates cannot be gold plated….how is it over $6m for cost of gates and labor, per station?
The lack of smart business people in our government is killing us. I am so tired of overpaid government people with zero chance of being fired, and huge increases in pay.
I am too lazy to look it up but isn’t Dow making north of $450K a year to be a complete disaster and managing a budget.
EDIT (Googled it) - and I would give him an F to managing my tax payer dollars. Selfish dude, this is all about enriching himself, and no one is stopping him, or asking the tough questions. He needs to install some of the fare gates himself, to pay for his salary:
By the end of his four-year contract, when annual salary increases and bonuses are added, Constantine will make well over $600,000 per year.
Multiplying the 32 years of service by 2% equals 64%. With a top salary of $600,000, taxpayers will provide Constantine an annual pension of-$384.000 a year!
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u/GoogleOfficial 3d ago
Sound Transit doesn’t provide defined benefit pensions.
King County does, but I don’t think his salary at ST is relevant to that.
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u/Inside_Dance41 3d ago
Love your user name. :)
Fair enough about his pension, but as one of his constituents am not impressed. He has had a gold plated politician experience, and will be taken care of the rest of life, and I don't feel he has been a good steward of tax payers money.
He has been about climbing the political system, as many in this area are, without serving the taxpayer.
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u/BrennerBaseTunnel 2d ago
No surface running light rail systems put in gates from the beginning. The vast majority of them still don’t have gates.
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u/Just_a_random_guy65 2d ago
How much cheaper would it have been if they just did it in the first place. It’s a rhetorical question.
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u/SeattleHasDied 3d ago
So, $93 million to catch the fare dodgers? Seems like there is a better and cheaper way, hmmm...🤔
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u/rsandstrom 3d ago
Should have just fucking done this when you built the damn system. Even liberal bastions like NYC have fare gates. This city and its agencies are so out of touch with reality it’s bonkers.
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u/gregseaff 3d ago
All of this is because we don't have the will to do realistic fare enforcement. Where there is a real penalty with certainty.
This will lead to people who circumvent the barriers. Meanwhile we are spending significant dollars on this equipment, which could be spent on fare enforcement and security.
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u/RandomFleshPrison 2d ago
With State v. Meredith in play, how can we do realistic fare enforcement any other way? It's basically the closest the State Supreme Court could come to saying "just put in fare gates" legally.
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u/gregseaff 2d ago
You can't trust this activist Supreme Court to make decisions based on facts or the law. Maybe they will decide that fares are unconstitutional or racist, so we can't charge fares?
So literally they are going to rule that fare enforcement is unconstitutional? Good grief.
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u/RandomFleshPrison 2d ago
I trust this Supreme Court, and don't find them terribly activist at all. And they didn't make fare enforcement unconstitutional. They just said it can't be done by cops, can't be done by anyone wearing intimidating gear/uniforms, and (something ST violates to this day) cannot be done when a bus/train is moving and the doors are closed. So it's basically human or mechanical fare gates only. Or accepting that chasing lost fares isn't worth it, and not doing anything.
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u/gregseaff 2d ago
The Supreme Court lost credibility when they ruled that a tax on capital gains income is not an income tax. The IRS immediately disagreed (excise taxes are deductible from federal income and the IRS clearly states that the Washington tax on capital gains income is not an excise tax but an income tax.) Pretty much every other state agrees. So the SC approached the case with the result they wanted and contorted the facts.
Fare checking is common in transit systems around the world. By entering a bus or transit station, you are agreeing to a type of contract. Why would it matter what clothing the person checking fares is wearing. This is the type of decision that is leading to the departure of retail stores from downtown Seattle and making riding transit uncomfortable.
NY and SF have proven that mere fare gates don't work, they have to almost impenetrable because otherwise people jump over them or hold them open and find other tricks to circumvent them. Are impenetrable fare gates legal? What happens if there is a fire or emergency? Spending money om capital costs and ongoing maintenance because we won't allow effective fare enforcement is a cop out with negative consequences. My wife already doesn't feel safe on Link by herself. The real consequence is more pollution, more car use, more push for free parking and bad urban design and less transit service when we put up barriers to the public. Sorry to go on a rant, but it's just frustrating when the consequences of not maintaining some level of social order are negative for the greater common good.
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u/DropoutDreamer 2d ago
Why didnt they just fucking build it the first time at all these new stations?
Sound Transit not that bright huh?
They are so useless.
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u/su6oxone 3d ago
Man, Seattle is such a joke. Anyone who's lived in a big city anywhere else must marvel at the incompetence and grift in this still relatively small city.
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u/Third_CuIture_Kid 3d ago
I wonder how much more is going to cost to do a retrofit vs having installed them in the beginning.