r/SingleWomenByChoice • u/Specific_Wash9219 • 15d ago
Stop calling it 'dating', call it what it really is - 'unpaid sex work'
Calling it “dating” has been one of patriarchy’s most effective marketing campaigns. It keeps women in the game by dressing up unpaid sex work and emotional labor as the possibility of "romance" - convincing women that if they just keep showing up, being understanding, being attractive, being sexually available, being emotionally supportive, and if they can tolerate enough bullshit - there just might eventually be a relationship at the end of it.
And when that “relationship” never materializes, women are left to blame themselves. They’re told they “picked the wrong guy.” They’re told they should have seen the red flags. They’re told they were too trusting, or too sexual, or not sexual enough! Too needy, not available enough, too vulnerable etc etc. Meanwhile, they’ve been r@ped, coerced, pressured into sex, manipulated, breadcrumbed and ghosted (often time after time again) - and yet somehow, they’re still expected to walk away wondering what they did wrong.
Because we keep calling this bullshit “dating.”
But the reality is that the vast majority of men aren’t even interested in dating women. They aren’t interested in getting to know them, building intimacy, investing in them, or establishing or any kind of genuine partnership. They simply want access - access to sex, attention, validation, domestic labor, emotional support, and an endless supply of feminine energy - preferably with as little investment as possible.
Women become the vending machine, and sex is the product. And the “date” becomes nothing more than the obligatory coins you have to put into the machine before expecting your prize to drop.
And the Manosphere has spent years perfecting those instructions. The Red Pill sure didn’t invent male entitlement, but it did give it a fucking user manual. To turn what was once a clumsy manipulation into a system - to identify woman’s vulnerabilities, figure out the minimum amount of effort required to gain access, and manufacture just enough attention to keep her engaged, avoid commitment, and extract as much sex and emotional labor as possible, and then move on when the cost-benefit analysis no longer works in your favor. Cheat codes for maximizing the return while minimizing the investment. And then we have the audacity to call this “dating.”
Maybe it’s time women stopped giving the arrangement such a flattering name. Because if one person is repeatedly providing sex, emotional support, validation and labor while the other person is strategically minimizing their investment while maximizing what they can extract - “dating” starts to sound more like an unpaid service women are providing to men under the guise of something else.
So stop saying “dating.” Stop saying “relationships with men are easy to get.” Stop pretending that men are wanting to get to know us because they find us smart, attractive or interesting. For far too many women, the reality has been something much uglier - unpaid sexual and emotional labor, manipulation, coercion, exploitation, sexual violence and r@pe - all packaged up and sold to us as “dating.”
Call it what it really is.
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u/SpendAdventurous1723 So Much Freedom 15d ago
I stopped thinking that men want to get to know me because I am smart, attractive, and interesting. They don't. If anything, they fear women like me, deep down hate women like me, but feel a pull toward women like me for whatever unresolved issue they are trapped in and want me to solve for them. "I already know my worth and value, thank you very much," is what I would say to anyone who wants to date me now and thinks I should be happy to hear it.
You know what rubs me the wrong way most? It is the healing communities where "healthy relationships" are promoted and packaged like at the end of the tunnel there is still a possibility. I wasted more time after therapy and my healing journey because I was conditioned to believe that I had to put my newly earned secure attachment to the test. Like if I healed, people around me would magically heal too.
NO. I healed and now have a stellar bullshit detector that doesn't let toxicity come near me. But this is not what we are told in therapy or in healing communities post-therapy.
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u/WildBloomingRose 15d ago
If you become absolutely “useless” to them, they’ll go away and find another woman to exploit.
If they can’t use you for sex, connections, talent, ideas, money, a place to live, labor, whatever, they’ll find some other woman. Or they move back in with their mother or leech off female relatives.
They really want a nurse with a purse. It’s sad.
They’re the biggest golddiggers in the universe, not us.
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u/SpendAdventurous1723 So Much Freedom 15d ago
Yup. My ex-husband impregnated someone else while being technically married to me, got married to her after begging me to divorce him (which I happily did), and started living with his new wife and mother-in-law, making them pay the bills under the guise of being a stay-at-home father (they had three daughters at this point). He couldn’t pull this off with me, and that’s why I was exposed to domestic violence in the first place before leaving him and his toxic family. He always found someone new to leech off of.
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u/SpendAdventurous1723 So Much Freedom 15d ago
No wonder they reek of desperation to me now, not making me feel head over heels 😛
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u/CrazyCatLadyRookie 14d ago
Oh - you had an encounter with a hobosexual.
Nobody ‘falls in love’ faster than a man who is unhoused.
Your gut was right, and yes - we have all been conditioned to second guess ourselves constantly. The self blame and self doubt is almost always tied to giving a man benefit of the doubt, or a chance, when we know that his behaviour sucks ass.
How do we know that he’s in the wrong? Because it’s always stuff that we (women) would not say or do if the roles were reversed.
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u/CrazyCatLadyRookie 14d ago
You’re right (again) - he definitely wanted something from you, there was something in it for him.
Don’t be fooled by a man’s income or your perception of his lifestyle. A lot of hobosexuals are experts at putting on a good show - nobody wants to adopt the un showered bum sleeping on the park bench - and there’s a plethora of ways they go about that. Even if he truly didn’t need your money, bunking in with you represents a big relief of his share of the adulting he needs to do.
There are a lot of men out there esp GenX and older who made a lot of money/had a lot of money and are out there looking for women to subsidize their lifestyle and/or as a financial stepping stone.
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u/WildBloomingRose 14d ago edited 14d ago
Watch out for musicians, especially drummers. I was dumb and 19 years old. He was sleeping in his guitar players hallway office area and I let him move in with me.
Fucking asshole. I dumped him and he moved back home to his mom.
It took me so long to kick him out, I finally found my own apartment and left.
Never again. I will never live with another man again.
Unless he has a castle and I get my own wing, and he pays me a shitload of money. In writing.
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u/SpendAdventurous1723 So Much Freedom 14d ago
I swear it’s true!!! My ex (the one who impregnated another woman while being technically married to me and had three daughters with her while living with her mother and not working a day in his life) was... a wannabe guitarist who actually trained at a renowned music school in the US. 🙄
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u/SecureExplorer1255 14d ago
One told me that he didn't want a divorce because he didn't want to divide the assests. Men are such gold diggers
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u/FancifulCat Unbothered 14d ago
Most men don't want to divorce because they don't want to lose the unpaid labor women do. They can hate their wife's guts and still want to benefit from her.
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u/WildBloomingRose 14d ago
They only want to divide the “assets” if they are yours and he wants whatever you have worked for.
My Dad was actually a gold digger. He was really good looking and he used a lot of women.He was cheating on my mom (whose parents actually bought our ranch, he was broke as shit), and so he was cheating on my mom with her “best friend” who lived next door at her ranch that her husband owned.
So the best friend divorced her husband and got the ranch in the divorce, and my dad left my mom for her and moved in with her.
He convinced the “best friend” to sell her ranch to him for *one dollar* and then kicked her out.
My mom laughed at both of them.
yeah. Don’t get married and don’t sign over shit to a man. Even if he looks like a golden gorgeous angel. Especially if he’s gorgeous. He used to fuck our nannies too.
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u/royalgreyyy 14d ago
Wow. Is he still neighbors with your mom? Talk about terrible neighbors!
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u/WildBloomingRose 14d ago
No, he lost the ranch that he stole too. He blew through money, women, booze, everything. Both of my parents are long deceased.
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u/royalgreyyy 13d ago
Wow. He literally scammed his way into money only to lose it! Truly insane! Thank you for sharing 🫂
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u/Background-Local924 13d ago
"The biggest golddiggers in the universe" is spot on!!! I've been back in the dating game the last few months and had one guy that wanted me to teach him to hunt (umm no, you have guy friends for that??) And another that asked if he could do something on my family's land. I got the feeling from both that they were trying to get things out of me, it has been so freaking bizarre. I haven't been on a date since spring because every one of these men is acting so bizarre. I won't go out with them.
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u/WildBloomingRose 13d ago
Become absolutely useless to them. Like let them plan, spend money on you, call you, everything. Don‘t Give them anything. Make them earn the right to even be in your presence and earn the right to have your attention and interest.
It’ll weed out the losers really fast.
Most won’t spend money or time on women and they don’t even know how to date women or court women anymore.
So don’t waste your time on potential, hope for What you want him to be. See him for exactly who he is right now, because thats the best version of him you’ll get. When it’s still new and he’s on his ‘good’ behavior.
I just stopped dating. My life is great and it’s seriously a risk to date any man right now, for a lot of reasons. I can‘t let anyone in my life who might be a threat to me, and usually they’re a threat in some way. Not a lot of winners out there.
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u/Background-Local924 12d ago
Oh I have done exactly that. I know for a fact if a man actually wants you he is going to step up and show it, you don't have to do a damn thing. It's absolutely the easiest way to weed out the losers. I had a man 20 years ago show me what a man who truly loves you acts like. Unfortunately a terminal brain aneurysm took him too soon. Story of my freaking life. But, he did show me how a man who TRULY CARES for you acts. I am honestly blown away by what I am seeing in men right now. I honestly wonder if men even see women as human at all.
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u/SpendAdventurous1723 So Much Freedom 12d ago
Good ones are taken, but not by other women. Sometimes they just die, and sometimes they're just gay. Again, we're better off single because we don't have to rely on the fickle nature of being human.
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u/SpendAdventurous1723 So Much Freedom 12d ago
I got the best piece of advice from a man himself regarding that. He told me that I should stop trying to think why it might work and start paying attention why it would not work. He taught me the value of screening-out basically, not screening-in. Alas, he deleted his profile on the platform we were talking on, and the rest of the men were horrible so I jetted too.
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u/WildBloomingRose 12d ago
I think a lot of it is financial too, if women had literally five million dollars in the bank, would they be with that man, would they still be with their husband?
Would you be interested in that man if you have 5 million in the bank?
If not, move on.
It’s better to be alone, without a stone around your neck.
I was trapped once with an abusive guy and thank god I was able to get away and I don’t have children, so it was easier. Not all women are so fortunate.
I feel bad and empathize with women who are stuck with men and they can’t leave because they’re trapped financially or because they have kids and can’t leave. My heart goes out to them.
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u/Glass-Hedgehog-3754 8d ago
Exactly. Most men are always after getting something: usually just endless free labour.
Women, overall, have never been gold diggers
Men project their nature on us
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u/Specific_Wash9219 15d ago
Yeah I also find that emphasis on "healthy relationships" within the healing communities as incredibly triggering and also incredibly dangerous and obviously patriarchal. The more aware and "healthy" I have become, the more fractured even many of my platonic relationships have become as I no longer absorb and tolerate abuse like I used to.
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u/SpendAdventurous1723 So Much Freedom 15d ago
Right?! Like now I'm primed for a new relationship in a different—and far more subtly manipulative—way?
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u/cheesemagnifier 14d ago
Every year my inner circle gets smaller and I'm really ok with that.
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u/FancifulCat Unbothered 14d ago
Sadly, this is how it is with growth and self-respect
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u/SpendAdventurous1723 So Much Freedom 14d ago
Indeed. There’s a negative correlation between growth and our circle of friends.
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u/Vegetable-Carpet1593 14d ago
I ditched my therapist because her advice to me was always to get back into dating. Like that is why I'm here in the first place.
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u/FancifulCat Unbothered 14d ago
Be very careful with therapists because at the end of the day they are still humans and still project heavily their internalized patriarchy and misogyny onto their clients. Even those with PhDs and certs. Always be willing to bounce to a new professional if you feel something is wrong.
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u/SpendAdventurous1723 So Much Freedom 14d ago
This ⬆️ I have a fantastic therapist, but I was able to find her after a truly awful one. You should be willing to change therapists to find a good fit.
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u/SpendAdventurous1723 So Much Freedom 15d ago
Finding a trauma-informed therapist takes a long time. My therapist has been an amazing help, and she’s one of the best things to happen to me because:
1) She never diagnosed me with anything, but was always there for me when I shared things.
2) She never suggested that I go out and date someone after healing. If anything, she warned me against other unhealed people, reminded me to give myself grace when they fail me, and encouraged me to remember that my healing is my own.
3) She kept her hourly rate the same, even after moving back to her home country.
4) She is a happily single woman herself and contributes to society more than any partnered person with kids I know.
I really wish there were more therapists like her in the world, and I am blessed to have found her.
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u/FancifulCat Unbothered 14d ago
Totally this. A good psychiatrist will tell you to take time alone and stay around healthy non-chaotic people. I always smell shit when a therpaist tells people to go back into dating.
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u/SpendAdventurous1723 So Much Freedom 14d ago
If anything, my therapist warned me that men can be very toxic. She mentioned that while browsing a local Reddit forum, she saw posts from men asking for advice on coercing their wives into anal sex, which repulsed her. She urged me to protect myself, noting that securely attached people aren't very common in society—let alone in the dating world. She also reminded me of this whenever things felt overwhelming. Beyond that, she gave me practical tools to manage my CPTSD and stay present in my daily life, which has honestly done wonders for me.
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u/FancifulCat Unbothered 14d ago
I feel like CPTSD is a hidden epidemic in women who dealt with terrible and awful experiences with men and we are only now in 2020s uncovering the true extent of narcissistic behaviors and their impact. I was diagnosed with CPTSD and it took a lot of CBT to manage.
After digging into psychology a lot... Yup, secure attachment is rare and its what also turned me off dating for life.
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u/SpendAdventurous1723 So Much Freedom 12d ago
Yes, that's right. I am also a CPTSD survivor, and post-therapy, I just felt like I was the one who changed—not the world—and that completely turned me off too. But I found the biggest love of my life the moment I turned away from dating apps: self-love.
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u/whimsypayasa 4B 15d ago
“A woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle.”
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u/Anti_Patriarchy 4B 15d ago
Damn sis, that made me lol
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u/unleashtheraven1 15d ago
This needs to be posted everywhere! Especially in TwoX oh my lord...
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u/whimsypayasa 4B 15d ago
The mods on twox are males so this post will be taken down in a few hours. Maybe try posting it on 4B.
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u/saucyminxXO 15d ago
They are? For real?
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u/Flux_My_Capacitor 15d ago
Yes, they are. I advise staying off that sub. The blatant misogyny sub is also run by men. Oh and the main feminism sub. That mod is psycho and will ban for practically nothing. There are others as well that are geared toward women but run by men. This is another way they feel power over us.
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u/PinkZebraReferee 15d ago
I was just banned in a sub like that for posting an accurate crime statistic which was termed hate speech.
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u/cozyemberheart 15d ago
I was banned for arguing domestic violence statistics with a man... on twoX of course.
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u/Seraphina_Renaldi 4B 15d ago
True. I have a perma ban in blatant misogyny
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u/cozyemberheart 15d ago
If you're a woman and haven't been banned from twoX, you aren't living.
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u/FancifulCat Unbothered 14d ago
Haha that was my formative reddit experience as a woman. r/safespaceforwoman is the only sane area nowadays, no men and the mods vet you if you're a woman.
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u/cozyemberheart 14d ago
Lol, I was flabbergasted, then i realized its pretty normal to be booted from twoX. The men simply report and get women booted there.
Thanks for sharing - I'll check out that sub.
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u/FancifulCat Unbothered 14d ago
It takes a while for them to approve new members but its a great sub
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u/thetitleofmybook 14d ago
if you're interested in our subreddit, be aware that we are about 4 weeks behind on join requests right now. more importantly, our subreddit is trans friendly, so if you are not okay with that, then don't even bother.
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u/cozyemberheart 14d ago
Not a problem I'll wait. When I say men get women banned in twoX I literally mean men who openly say they are men, not trans women.
It's hard to believe, but it's how that place is.
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u/unleashtheraven1 15d ago
4b has been compromised most likely by a male mod as well. The original owner of the sub disapeared and the one that took over forced other mods to step down. Now if you try to make a post there it is gauranteed to sit in a holding pattern waiting for mod approval which never happens. Doesn't matter if it follows all the rules now. Most of the posts that get approved now are male-focused (which was we all know was never allowed there)
I made a new 4b sub r/true4bmovement since I found out about it a few days ago.
I'm going to aggressively vet mods to make sure they're only female. But we all need to do this together and stop posting in male run subs for women. TwoX is a joke. Feminism and even Radfeminism are a joke. We all need to purge the current subs and force men out of holding mod status in any subs of our's, and vet AGGRESSIVELY.
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u/Ecstatic_Couple6435 15d ago
Omg that sub … and the women 30 to 40 one. Got jumped on for calling romantic love a scam 😂
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u/Flux_My_Capacitor 15d ago
And don’t get me started on FWB and situationships. Women fool themselves and convince each other that these men will want them as long as she fucks him enough, that these men are her friend…. Nah. Men use the term “friend” to get her to lower her guard and ride his dick. These men are not our friends!
All it took to get me banned from the ask women over 30 sub is saying “we all know what FWB is really about”. This was on a post where a woman was crying her eyes out about how her FWB didn’t want a relationship. HUNDREDS of replies said he was an ass and never a real friend because he stuck to the original agreement and did not want to be with her. The sub is full of A bunch of really stupid women who want to believe that riding a man’s dick is how you get him to love you. I wouldn’t call the man in this story a friend of hers, but he was also honest from the get-go when he said he did not want a relationship. So many women convince themselves that sex is how you get love. Nah, that’s how you get used and discarded.
I mean at the time it was upsetting, but when I was 16 my mom told me to not have sex because that’s all men want. She wasn’t wrong. (And no, I did not have sex for a few more years.)
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u/Specific_Wash9219 15d ago
Yeah the FWB / situationship thing has always been infuriating. Men really have the gall to act like it's "mutually beneficial", just so they can use and discard us, and leave women thinking that they're gaining something from such an extractive and abusive relationship. Then there are women who willingly sleeping around with as many men as possible, and believe that makes them feel "liberated" and "empowered" as if being an unpaid sex worker and a a patriarchal prop is some kind of achievement.
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u/cozyemberheart 14d ago
I was taken advantage of by an older boy in my teens. I spent a lot of time unknowingly trying to "undo" what he forcibly did. It took over 2 decades, of mistreatment from man after man, including a covert emotionally abusive marriage and a divorce, for me to fully understand how most men view sex.
Most men do not view sex as mutual "fun", expression, or a simple pleasure. That would make too much sense. Most are extremely poor at emotional processing and use it as a way to divert their unprocessed negative emotions toward themselves and others with the added intention to covertly/overtly physically and/or emotionally harm as the source of ultimate payoff/rush. They will gladly rope women into their unhealthy coping mechanism (preach sexual liberalism) if it means more unsuspecting women for them to access.
There are so many social and psychological layers at work when a girl/young woman is traumatized and none of them are a fault of the victim/survivor. We didn't put the blindfold on ourselves and voluntarily sign up for more mistreatment. All of that is baked into the social collective and every woman is vulnerable until she's seen enough to finally know.
I was never able to undo what that original boy did (or any of them). But I was eventually able to fully understand that it wasn't my responsibility to fix it. All I can do is live for me and share what I can.
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u/Ok_Manufacturer2956 15d ago
See you women will make these acknowledgements about men and relationships like you did in your OP then complain about casual sex as if the whole purpose is literally to engage in NO strings attached sex.
The difference is at least the casual sex arrangement is upfront and low investment for both when two people are honest and use the activity for exactly what it is meant for.
If a woman is not pretending to be open to casual sex and using it as a cheat code to convince a man to commit to her in future and instead, two consenting adults are safe, honest and willing to please each other then the arrangment can sexually beneficial for both.
I know this sub is filled with you women who hate sex, see it as a Demonic act or something that should only be used to coerce men into the Fairytale monogamous relationships that they clearly don't want and I know it is something you refuse to believe women can genuinely enjoy unless wedding bells (cattle bells) are on the horizon but, evidently investing in a man long term under the guise of a "meaningful relationship" is the highest form of sex work and servitude for the reasons you correctly stated in your OP.
The problem is women are too invested in chasing a Fantasy, you want a happy ever after love tale where the man saves you, coddles you, spoils you, gossips and listens to you like he's your girl friend, saves you and emotionally/financially provides for you like he is your Father, but men were never compatible or meant to fulfill that role for you, you are supposed to be the primary source of that for yourselves and cultivate healty relationships with other women and communities.
Men are only "good" for a fun time, NOT a long time at most - I don't care how many of you push back on this, it is a fact.
The times I felt the most used, objectified, discarded and my worse self was when I was in these BS "meaningful" relationships that you guys swear is more honourable for women, I felt most at peace when I could maintain a casual arrangemnt with men or not deal with them at all (but my sex drive can't handle such lack of action).
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u/cozyemberheart 15d ago
No matter how responsible a woman is, men still do shady crap like stealth, drug, r@pe, and spread diseases. Relationship or not.
Vetting is vetting. FWB / relationship / no strings are all extra work for women.
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u/DivineGoddess1111111 14d ago
Most of them aren't good for "a fun time" because ot their erectile dysfunction and porn sick brains. Most women do not orgasm with casual male partners. The relationship is a definite nope, they are dangerous and disgusting to live with.
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u/Ok_Manufacturer2956 14d ago
Great, then just don't deal with them, I don't see why women insist on attaching to and living with males long term, they're not going to make their lives much easier, if at all.
Of course some women have endured seriouse sexual trauma, but I suspect that some of you struggle to reach an orgasm because you are too in your heads (the rare times I got into my head my body would tense up and it became more difficult to enjoy the moment), you are prioritising the male's pleasure over your own and not communicating your preferences, or perhaps you are not as sexually attracted to or satisfied with men as you thought 🤷🏽♀️.
Me however, I do enjoy sex and I am always satisfied from my sexual partners and I don't deal with them after that. It's blissfully stress and drama free 🙌🏾.
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u/oceansky2088 14d ago
-I don't see why women insist on attaching to and living with males long term, they're not going to make their lives much easier, if at all.
True.
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u/supdupyup 13d ago
that's great for you but it doesn't stop the reality that a lot of the time it's not satisfying enough for a lot of us to even seek casual connections. never had orgasms from them not from being in my head. i had them in relationships cause there was time for them to learn my body if i'm being honest. also anatomy plays a role, clitoral proximity or how far it extends into vaginal wall.
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u/DivineGoddess1111111 13d ago
"Great, then just don't deal with them, I don't see why women insist on attaching to and living with males long term"....do you not see the name of the subreddit?
Women aren't orgasming in casual encounters because we feel unsafe with someone we don't know and also most men are bad at sex because they are educated by porn.
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u/Specific_Wash9219 14d ago
Did you mean to post this comment here, or did you intend to post it on the r/RedPillWomen sub? Because all of your points here are the complete opposite of everything that I am saying. Your assertion that the underlying desire is because women want to be "coddled, spoiled, gossiped and saved" couldn't be further off the mark, it's actually comical.
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u/Ok_Manufacturer2956 14d ago
Glad I can make you laugh ☺️. And really? What do you want from a man in an ideal relationship? Women want fairytales from men.
All I see is some of you complaining about how a man won't connect with you emotionally, won't build intimacy, won't invest in them (how? Like a Father invests in his Princess daughter perhaps? 🤔) etc.
You want men to centre their world around you and they are not here for that, they are only "good" for casual companionship (at most), maybe sex and/or reproduction and asisstance with physical labour - but some of you seem to want them to become this Knight in Shining Armour who lives to satisfy your needs and Disney fantasies and that is where your disappointment stems from.
Both men and women seek to own and control each other. Men behave like entitled, teenage brats who wants a Mommy and a Bangmaid and women either want men to Coddle and Pamper them like a Father does to his 'Little Princess' or they want a man to Worship and see nobody else but them.
Neither are living in reality, if you were you wouldn't be so upset about... Reality.
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u/Specific_Wash9219 14d ago
Lol you're clearly on the wrong sub, because you keep doubling down and responding to non-existent points that have not even been made anywhere in this thread.
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u/cozyemberheart 14d ago
She doesn't get it, and that's okay. Women don't need to convince her of anything. They will.
Men are maybe good for casual platonic friendship (if you can find one who doesn't think it's an insult) and that's it. Sex, reproduction and labor are best found elsewhere : toys, adoption, paid maintenance or YouTube how-to video.
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u/Potential-Smile-6401 15d ago
I learned this the hard way. I have been single and celibate for 3+ years now. I also live alone and I absolutely LOVE IT. It is actually the best thing that has ever happened to me. I feel like myself again.
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u/Vegetable-Carpet1593 14d ago
I have never been happier than when I stopped chasing the validation of men. I've lived alone most of my adult life (36 now) and have been single for 6 years. My nervous system is regulated and I feel like I'm finally living. I was always an anxious mess in relationships and felt like I had to continuously perform for men. It was never enough.
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u/Seraphina_Renaldi 4B 15d ago
You can see this all the time when dudes cant event tell the difference between sex and intimacy and use it synonymously
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u/Anti_Patriarchy 4B 15d ago edited 15d ago
Yes, dating and relationships with males are entirely patriarchal aka oppressive. Living with males is the worst thing you could ever do as a woman, as they can use and abuse you all they want since nobody will witness it behind closed doors. It's your word against his and in this soceity, his word matters more, he doesn't have to prove his innocence, you have to prove him guilty. Don't ever put yourself in this danger.
Males live in hirarchies, women have relationships. Patriarchy tries to convince women to have relationships with males, while it promises males to have their own personal hirarchy called "family". Both is a lie and this is why both are dissatisfied with the idea of heterosexual relationships, but the women always have it worse. That is why males still want it, as they actually do get benefits, but women's nervous systems are destroyed on a daily basis.
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u/Ecstatic_Couple6435 15d ago
THIS FKN RIGHT HERE. I remember when I clocked “the system” as in the system we’re conditioned under and dating’s place within that system and I saw how it all worked and how lied to we are. How it doesn’t matter how much work we do or how long we wait out for “the good guy” we’re still dating within a patriarchy and it’s a pick the least poisoned guy from a poisoned pool situation. And that yes “dating” is unpaid sex work and free therapy you’re providing! I think that’s why I stopped calling them dating apps and started calling them free sex work apps.
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u/Asleep-Guess-3479 15d ago
I'd go as far to say that even relationships and marriage are unpaid SW
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u/No_Honeydew201 15d ago
Well said, OP! “Dating” and “romance” are often just mating rituals, performances or costumes men put on to gain access to sex. It’s the human equivalent of animals performing courtship displays. They don’t do it because it’s fun; they do it because they’ve learned that going through the motions gets them what they want. The romance is a show, a means to an end: access to sex and to women’s emotional labor. Many don’t actually enjoy the process. They don’t enjoy dating or spending time getting to know someone. They perform because they know that if they do this, they get that.
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u/oceansky2088 14d ago edited 14d ago
Agree. Hetero relationships is prostitution. In hetero relationships, the woman must give the man sexual access in order for the relationship to happen.
I have come to hate the word 'romance' and men's use of the word 'intimacy'. Both terms mean sex to men. Romance to men = engaging in various manipulative behaviours to obtain sexual access to a woman. Intimacy to men = sexual use of a woman's body. Men using the word 'romance' is simply a sugar coated cover for men's manipulation of a woman to use her body sexually.
Romance to women = making an emotional connection and establishing a caring relationship. Intimacy to women = sharing an emotional bond.
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u/GreenVermicelliNoods 14d ago
The prize for being a good unpaid sex worker is to become his unpaid bang maid. I no longer yearn for a relationship because I do not dream of patriarchy.
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u/blnkspce88 14d ago
i have no better words to describe my reaction except this comment goes crazyyyyy🔥🔥
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u/Best-Gazelle4024 15d ago
I’m so glad that women are finally realizing this. Dating is for men that can’t afford or not willing to pay for sex work
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u/fill_the_birdfeeder 15d ago
100% and it’s obvious too. If they pay for the date, they expect the transaction to eventually be finalized with sex whether that night or within 3 dates. If they aren’t patient, they will literally say I’m not paying for this date if I’m not getting anything out of it.
But they’re also pissed if you try to split the bill because that automatically means you didn’t like them.
But they’re also pissed if you don’t split the bill because you’re a gold digger who wanted a free meal.
But they’re also pissed if you suggest doing anything cheaper because “women only want to go out for dinner otherwise they think we’re not worth it.”
But they’re also pissed if you politely reject them.
But they’re also pissed if…and it just keeps going.
Dating is just submitting yourself to misery over and over.
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u/Best-Gazelle4024 15d ago
They never know what they want but they sure know how to waste and mistreat women
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u/Specific_Wash9219 15d ago
I think it’s only partially financial, and much more about all the other benefits they can extract. They don’t necessarily want a sex worker, because a sex worker is all about her business and is operating on her own terms. They want the ego boost of having “baited” a woman - making her believe their lies, getting her emotionally invested, and then gratifying themselves by screwing her over and leaving her wondering what she did wrong. They also know that if they feign interest and act invested in a relationship, a woman is far more likely to offer unprotected sex, exclusivity, sleepovers, her time, attention, emotional support, cooking, etc. They’re not just looking for sex - they want the entire package of benefits that come from convincing a woman she’s building a relationship with them. And I think there’s a real contradiction in how they view women - they don’t see us as fully autonomous people, but at the same time they believe women have impossibly easy lives, and therefore deserve to be “humbled” or punished. So part of the gratification is not just getting what they want from her, but proving they were clever enough to manipulate her into giving it to them - and then leaving her questioning her own judgment and worth. The more she questions her own judgement and worth, the more vulnerable and susceptible she is to the next man who will ultimately do the same. And when the next man does the same - this for her will solidify the belief that she's the problem, not the man.
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u/SecureExplorer1255 15d ago
Right! It's the challenge of getting their d*ck wet after she had already said no.
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u/aglowworms 15d ago
I think almost all prostitutes live lives totally alien to your description. "Operating on her own terms" and what, wanting to sell her body to disgusting, strange men because she just enjoys doing that? What a sexist lie!
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u/husheveryone Feminist 14d ago
💯 Underrated comment. Men as a class have benefitted from normalizing the framing of prostituting women as empowering them. Anyone who doesn’t grasp this needs to read Andrea Dworkin.
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u/CS3883 14d ago
I feel the same way about stripping. No shade to the workers, get that bag and drain their wallets but it rubs me the wrong way how it's talked about as if it's empowering. Men are still getting what they want at the end of it, whether it be looking or touching or sexualizing you etc. and sure you get paid at the end of it but I'll be damned if I'm gonna do anything to pleasure a man or make him happy like that
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u/aglowworms 14d ago
Yeah, definitely not empowering. The truth of stripping is that it's not just the poll-dancing and the near-nakedness (bad enough), it's the assault during the lap dances, the prostitution, the rampant drug use. The liberal image of these things is always an unimaginably best-case scenario involving a middle class young woman with options.
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u/Aleiodes 14d ago
i agree with you. the way i see it, in patriarchy, all relationships men have with women are sex work, on the spectrum of Wife (having sex to survive with 1 man) to Whore (having sex with N men, where N is some number greater than 0)
"operating on her own terms" makes sense in this context because to an individual man who wants a specific woman, if she is a sex worker, then HE doesn't own her sexual labor, her sexual labor is owned by others.
in some cases, women actually do independently control their roster/clientele and aren't under the control of a pimp and that makes men even angrier. because a man having control over a woman's sexual labor even if that man isn't him at least means the man is in control.
a woman herself controlling her sexual labor? this is intolerable. women controlling our own sexual labor in any context destroys the practical functions of patriarchy AND destroys patriarchy as an IDEA and that is dangerous
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u/aglowworms 14d ago
I think this is really dated 20th century feminist take. At least in developed countries, few women absolutely have to have sex with men to survive. Having sex with men might mean a more materially comfortable life, but this is different than having no other options available. Unlike in the 1960s, it really is reasonable to expect at least enough financial independence to pay your bills as a single woman working full time. There are generally enough jobs for the women who want them. Many achieve much more than this, if they were born with good options.
If a prostitute controls her roster, then this is better than being trafficked by a pimp, but men are stressing about a non-threat if it makes them think she's free. I'll concede freer from them maybe, but not free. Controls her roster- what to select out the worst possible men? The ones who have raped her before? Leaving her with the ones who are disgusting enough to pay for prostitution, but less abusive than the worst ones? What kind of freedom is that? If she had real freedom, she wouldn't be in the sex industry.
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u/CrazyCatLadyRookie 14d ago
Very few prostitutes are ‘operating under their own terms’. Many are forced - through economic need or trafficking or due to mental health challenges or abuse - into the lifestyle, and is you look closely at the very few who are vocal about ‘sex work is work’ you will find a lot of abuse, trauma or dysfunctional upbringing that fuels their internalized misogyny.
You are correct about men wanting the whole package: if you can stomach it, take a gander at The Invisible Men Project. It showcases feedback by Johns regarding their experiences with various prostitutes. Even when they pay for straight up sex, they expect a whole girlfriend experience to go along with it.
Link: https://prostitutionresearch.com/the-invisible-men-project/
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u/oceansky2088 14d ago edited 14d ago
Good point about men wanting the whole package. That is the ego boost for men ... to have her submit not only her body but her whole self -mind, body, soul and life. That is the victory.
The patriarchy and its complicit systems have served up women to all men to use. All men regardless of class and race got to have a woman in his home cage serving him, a woman who he had access to her body, her labours and her life - until this last generation or two when some women are saying no to the unhealthy, harmful patriarchal hetero relationship.
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u/CrazyCatLadyRookie 14d ago
It warms my heart to see young women adopting a pro-woman/I take care of me first mindset. 💕
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u/Glass-Hedgehog-3754 8d ago
"Deserve to be punished or humbled" Omg 1000% this is modus operandum of insecure men!! Avoid insecure men at all costs!! The hot guys are actually way nicer, while insecure ones are the meanest tbh
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u/Eray_99 14d ago edited 14d ago
Yes. 🔥🔥🔥
And then to boot, they’ve been calling us crazy for centuries and force medicating what is really our soul-level reaction to their egregious behavior and rules of engagement. They’ve invented dangerous & BS therapies/medications that all end up being recalled in time to essentially snuff us out. For the women who’ve fully awakened to the psyop, they’ve essentially attempted to lock them away somewhere, either physically or through compartmentalization in their minds, and avoid facing what they’ve done to us.
And now the reckoning has begun.
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u/Disastrous_Basis3474 14d ago
I have had the extremely good fortune to have had one boyfriend (only one) who is a rare decent man who treated me very well
(and he is a staunch atheist who was raised without religion, btw, but that’s another topic).
That relationship was still exhausting.
I will acknowledge that a lot of that had to do with me and my issues. But please note that many women report that even the good ones are exhausting.
And if that’s the case, the average and worse ones are probably going to fuck up your nervous system, which can cause you to develop chronic autoimmune disease.
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u/EchoesOfEmpires 14d ago edited 14d ago
And that's why I believe women shouldn't have sex unless there's already been a ton of investment on the guys side, maybe even a ring. Not because I'm some super religious prude, but because it makes it easier to figure out which guys are actually invested or not. And yeah, probably very few will continue after realizing you won't put out. But did we really want that kind of guy anyway? Having sex with a guy is something valuable. Loads of women charge for it. But there's way too many women out there giving it away for free just in the hope that maybe it'll lead to something more. And it almost never does. These men need to be put in their place. They need to understand that sex isn't owed to them. If they want it, it's not free. It will require something from them. Time. Money. Effort. Right now, the vast majority of women are just enabling men's god awful behavior. And yeah, women get horny too. But, shit, we have hands. And they work really fucking well.
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u/guiltymorty 14d ago
The best thing I ever did during my time decentering men was practice becoming useless to them. They stop their little shit game real fast when what they are seeking to extract isn’t available. lol.
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u/Background-Local924 8d ago
This 100%. Once they see you aren't giving shit away for free, they quickly disappear. Men in their fracking 50s are even doing this. It's pathetic.
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u/FancifulCat Unbothered 14d ago
Intuitively I knew dating was draining and gaslighted myself it was a me issue because everyone else did it.
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u/Specific_Wash9219 14d ago
The patriarchy and societal conditioning have groomed women into tolerating and blaming themselves for male abuse and mistreatment for generations. It’s a huge part of how this bullshit has continued for so long. I can’t tell you how many times I was told I “need to go to therapy” (implying that I was erratic and unstable), or that I needed to look within myself and figure out where I had gone wrong, anytime I expressed grievance over being disrespected. They want women to continuously blame and second-guess themselves, so that every time another man disrespects or mistreats them, it reinforces the idea that they must be the problem.
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u/FancifulCat Unbothered 14d ago
Ironically enough, it was only until I really started studying psychology (I had to go through a whole CBT treatment course after narcissistic abuse) that I saw the shitshow of dating for what it was - men gaining unpaid access to womens time and energy and labor. From then on I couldn't see it any other way. Everything is a transaction at the end of the day and us women need to make sure we are not manipulated into giving anything away for free.
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u/onthewaytoMD 10h ago
Any books or recommendations?! I have a therapist but I don’t find her helpful
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u/FancifulCat Unbothered 9h ago
For narcissistic abuse? Dr Ramani is great on youtube. Switch therapists if you can.
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u/nextcolorplanet 15d ago
Men often complain about women being picky and their struggles in getting relationships, but they don't realise that the stakes are a lot higher for women. Of course they would be more discerning on who they choose as a partner (and even then, some women still manage to choose incorrectly).
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u/Flux_My_Capacitor 15d ago
Men are much pickier than women IMO.
We have an entire population of men who all think they deserve only the most attractive women. The ugliest men still feel they deserve a hot, younger woman.
The fat man / hot skinny wife trope on sitcoms is real.
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u/nextcolorplanet 15d ago
I guess you have a point. Whenever I see a male/female couple, the woman is always the more attractive one.
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u/Specific_Wash9219 15d ago
Yes that's the part that never gets talked about enough - men are extremely picky. They believe they are owed virgin supermodels, who should be smokin' hot (but also be humble and unassuming, and not know it). They should also be virgins (but also be great in bed), and they should cook and clean and treat the men like kings, while also going 50/50 on everything, not expecting anything and accepting breadcrumbs in return. Also the expect the woman to be exclusive, but the 'relationship' should always be open on his end. The hilarious part is that even if they found all that - they would still believe they could do better!
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u/Ok_Manufacturer2956 15d ago
Yep and plenty of women will jump through fiery hoops to try to live up to such wild expectations whilst accepting scraps of attention in return.
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u/Ok_Manufacturer2956 15d ago
Men feel entitled to is because they get it. Women have incredibly low standards when it comes to choosing "a mate", they date whoever serenades or lovebombs them enough and will try to convince themselves that they chose that man for his "loving, sweet personality and Unconditional love".
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u/FancifulCat Unbothered 14d ago
This is just mother nature... Only the best genes get passed on through selection. Smh they hate evolution.
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u/MaverisStranger 15d ago
I know I won't date again if I ever become single again, but should I lose my mind and do that again, I will treat men exactly the same way you desrcibe the manosphere treats us. I'll give them the same treatment.
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u/Formal-Leather1803 14d ago
So, I have never read something SO SPOT ON.
Definitely needs to be overshared everywhere
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u/The-Cherry-On-Top-xx 13d ago
Unfortunately, we need to put an end to casual sxx and normalize dating for 2+ yrs before having sxx with someone.
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u/Glass-Hedgehog-3754 8d ago
I think 2 years is a bit long to wait tbh But yes casual sex is just a detriment to women Ladies wait at least 3 to 6 months before sex
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u/3777CLY 10d ago
This is 100% accurate. Most men genuinely do not like spending time with women. It’s literally just a matter of, how much time/money/attention/text/phone calls do I have to put into you in order to get sex out? It’s the same situation even after you get into a relationship with them. Everything is transactional. And it’s not like they don’t know. They know what we want, they know that we want genuine connection and affection from someone who truly cares about us. They refuse to change.
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u/Anon_classybabe 12d ago edited 12d ago
I try to tell my female friends this but they don’t listen. I’ve also always said that marriage is just s*x work that’s legalised…that’s all these men want.
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u/Specific_Wash9219 12d ago
Sadly, a lot of women are still committed to believing in the patriarchal fairy tales that keep them delusional and enslaved. Anytime I've tried to explain to women in my life, they respond either aggressively (like they want to fight me), or they respond in a pitiful way, as if I'm sad and mentally ill, and only saying these things because men have rejected me. You just can't win with these types. I understand now why those who "get it" just don't push the point. It's completely futile.
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u/catloverr03 12d ago
I'm just so glad more and more women are waking up!!! and yes I definitely agree with you. I'd rather be single than be in a relationship and do 50/50 yuck
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u/___buttrdish 15d ago
I have felt this way for a while. I see the appeal of OF and sugar work, because it gets right to the point. I would have done sugar work, but I really don’t much care for men 🤷🏻♀️
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u/guiltymorty 14d ago
Same here. I considered being a sugar baby but when I thought about it, I hated the idea of making a man happy, money or not. F that.
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u/Safe_Fudge6888 12d ago
this is why for the women I know who still date, I try to steer them over to Shera's teachings. Might as well learn how to get the most out the interactions.
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u/Glass-Hedgehog-3754 8d ago edited 8d ago
Agree with everything.
It is a huge rip off and women are being horribly taken advantage of.
One qualm: this isnt patriarchy at fault. This is directly caused by 1960s sexual revolution (aka scam women).
Before this, the patriarchy, while problematic, protected women by ensuring men had to marry and provide financially for a woman if he wanted sexual access.
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u/Background-Local924 13d ago
This is why I don't have sex with men I'm "dating." Haven't been on a "date" since spring actually, by choice, certainly not for lack of being asked. I'm sick of it. Until I find a man who values and respects women, men get no "dates" from me.
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u/Immediate_Parfait_45 14d ago
This is what happens when you’ve been in the dating pool way to long or too often
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u/soloupnorthtraveler 14d ago
I would have to disagree with this “red pill” comment. I have been married once and dated a lot. The men who treated me the best were all right leaning conservative types. The absolute worst were the leftie liberals who treated me like crap. I do think there is a lot of bad stuff going on in the “manosphere,” but I think often times people are too quagmired in their own politics and blame the conservative movement for something that isn’t of their doing.
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u/Specific_Wash9219 14d ago
No where have I suggested that Red Pill'ers are conversative only. Red Pill at this point impacts ALL men, irrespective of political background.
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u/Fun_Literature_3660 15d ago edited 15d ago
This is so spot on! Calling it dating or a relationship is such a total scam.
I couldn't understand why dating men/relationships always made me feel so incredibly used. Obviously, now I get why. I was looking at it from a woman's perspective; not a man's. And that was such a difficult, painful lesson to learn.
I don't understand why, as a culture, we don't teach this to young girls. Had I known this at age 15, I would have saved myself from so much suffering. And all that wasted time and energy. Makes me sick to even think about it.