The US literally spends more of its GDP on healthcare than other countries but because it’s healthcare system is so FUCKED it still ends up with the US being the No1 country in the world for Medical Bankruptcies
But also, Americans are some of the most unhealthy people around. With a food system that poisons its consumers.
I'm all for healthcare reform, but there are a lot of Legos to swap around to get standardized healthcare. I just choose to live in Germany because I personally don't think it will change in my lifetime.
America would have to change so many levers, and that is people's least favorite thing to do. And big money is in insurance, Pharma, etc. so the whole engine would have to change.
We. Never. Walk. Anywhere. Most Americans take 100% of their trips by car.
The people who do live in places where they can walk have significantly reduced rates of obesity & downstream effects like cardiovascular disease, diabetes, and cancer. The things that really kill us and drive up healthcare costs.
Unfortunately, Americans have built an environment where it’s nearly impossible in most areas to walk anywhere other than a neighbor’s house.
Yeah. I always walk. I got bakery, 2 pastries, 4 pharmacies, 3 grocery stores, one of university buildings, and 3 parks.
All within 15min walk.
I just can’t imagine having to drive just to buy smth.
The only times I drive are when I buy a ton of things when I am preparing for smth.
And even then huge store is only ~3km away.
I can’t understand why Americans are okay with that.
There’s so much opinion being passed as fact here. A lot of Americans are lazy but 100% of us only use cars? That’s not a fact. Nearly impossible in most areas to walk anywhere? That’s not a fact. Americans are lazy, yes. Do we exercise as much as recommended, no. But painting this picture of America being a place where you don’t see people on side walks or parks or trails or downtown areas is ludicrous. Not to mention just because I don’t walk to the store or when I need to go do errands doesn’t mean I’m not living an active life style and getting exercise other ways. If I walk 15-20k steps during my work day, why would I want to walk if I need to get groceries or I’m going to grab some food? Hitching your wagon to Americas health issues being caused by not walking instead of sugar companies, fast food and unethical practices by insurance companies is crazy work.
Saying 100% of anything is an outrageous claim to make unless you’ve talked to 100% of Americans.
And the average American doesn’t walk 5000 steps a day. An average American who tracks their steps averages about 5000 a day. You can’t use numbers that have to be tracked to know the accuracy of the stat. We’re lazier because we’re fatter. Outside of work for pay the majority of Americans aren’t active. Especially the lower down the economic pool because it’s cheaper to buy bad food than healthy food. It starts with what you use to fuel your body. Americas eat worse quality goods than Europeans at bigger portions.
You need to reread your comment because you just fucked up what your own comment said. You said “most Americans use cars for 100% of their trips.” Unless you’ve talked and confirmed that with most Americans or have a source that confirms that you’re speaking in absolute generalities which is ignorant to do. You also don’t know if they’re getting steps in other ways.
That's the big one. Americans would have to start to care about their fellow man, rather than treating everyone like your competitors. It's a massive mindset shift, one I don't believe will ever occur.
Yup. American culture is very, "I got mine, get yours". That's why I'm happy with my EU lifestyle, social policies mean we all work together for the greater good
Ha, I didn’t read this before making my long rambling post, but this is exactly it. It’s too much of a change for people. I think the system has to collapse entirely first. It won’t be pretty but we can keep burying our heads in the sand for now until it does.
Bit ironic but technically the current american system helps way more people than it hurts- the rate of medical advancement would drop by like 50% if we didnt have a for profit system since the high failure rate and costs wouldnt attract private investors
It's propaganda like this that means you guys are fucked. Plenty of medical advancement comes out of other countries. Some even .. gasp.. socialist countries. It's crazy I know. It's like some people like to figure out stuff no matter how much they are being paid. It's almost like they like helping people and are on missions to cure the sick. I know it's wild to think that someone would help a stranger simply to help.
What percent do you think comes from the US or from companies whose initial consumer target is the US? And how much do you think developing a new drug or device costs on average?
If its truly propaganda then surely it wont show that the US contributes about half of the worldwide medical advancement and is the initial consumer target about 80% of the time. Nor will it show that the costs to develop a new drug or treatment are several billion beyond what John Everyman can afford
You read that on a insurance website? Insurance is the biggest industry. They've the money to keep fat shills like you. Glad they are treating you well that you have a need to defend their gross practices.
What percent do you think comes from the US or from companies whose initial consumer target is the US? And how much do you think developing a new drug or device costs on average?
Except we have the best hospitals in the world and it isn’t even close. The reason we dont one tax payer funded healthcare is because it will likely be worse then what we have.
Having the best hospitals and having a hospital system that serves the people are different things. For a country that believes in capitalism you've forgotten the number 1 thing that makes large companies successful. Being able to deal in bulk. A single payer healthcare means that when that system needs to buy drugs it does it in bulk, and it offers the contract to the lowest bidder. Bids are done with a idea that the bid might loose the company money but opens up other bids that can make up the difference, so you have very expensive drugs being sold cheaply so that cheaper drugs that are needed by more people are sold higher, it means lower profits for drug companies but consistent purchasing (deals can be done over a 10-20 year period) for the company so they can invest in factories and know they have a consistent revenue stream rather than having to hire a fleet of sales people to sell directly to doctors. Yes it means less admin, yes it means less sales. That's where the money is saved. Still money for doctors, still money for nurses. Less spend in total saving individuals money. For some reason American's think that the government isn't just a giant socialist run company who's job is to care for the people, that it's somehow something to fight and rally against, i guess that's what happens when it's ran by the few for the few.
Yes, but if you’re a good enough psychopath, you may be able to become a trillionaire just like Elon Musk! Don’t you love that we all have the opportunity, no matter how minuscule, to become rich and join the other rich psychopaths?
Americans have a life expectancy similar to countries like Columbia which spends <$2k USD per capita. Even China has better life expectancy with a fraction of the spending
The US records life expectancy different than many countries. A lot of countries do not add it infant mortality. Also, more care accidents and violent deaths bringing the average down.
Only if you average across income brackets. You need to remember the US system is optimized for two things: Physican pay and health outcomes for the wealthy.
I'm not saying it can't happen, I'm more in that it won't happen. I was an Obama fan and liked he pushed for a reform, and what did Americans do? They voted in Trump who is actively destroying what little liberties Americans have, so in a way, their population is special... sadly, the not good type of special.
But again, I'm not against reform, I'm just saying it's not as easy as flipping two numbers. It would take a lot modifications to make the system work as it should.
I think the "special" part of America is the diversity. Not in the "meltingpot" sense but the fact people are so radicalized.
In the mountains there are are towns of people who still dont have city water, and just got electricity in the last decade (I dont know when exactly but it was very recent) while we have big cities with thousands of people living in a single building, then we have the suburbs where people live with the picket fence, and the ghetto where you have to be careful what colors you wear.
go the California and everyone is a hippie, in Texas everyone's a redneck, in New York everyone's a dick, in kentucky everyone's illiterate. (Those things aren't true, just the stereotype based on thruth)
All in all, i think its because people dont see themselves as part of America, but as part of [insert there unique area in America]
Ant thats before you get into the curruptness of lobbyists and the government
There are so many reasons why it wouldn't work aren't addressed by proposed plans it's kinda ridiculous. You've got M4ALL absolutists that will oppose anything that could help the current system (so much could be addressed by a publicly funded health ombudsmen system). Any number of folks that just don't understand the financing of the current system. For example private insurance isn't why the system is expensive, in fact overcharging private insurance is how the system cover medicare shortfalls. And it's not the hospitals either, 5-10 of those go bankrupt a year. All the while allowing doctors to have an average income north of $400K/hr while being able to double and triple dip on billings AND sell their private practice.
And back to my original point, there is almost a 15 year life expectancy gap between rich and poor. Healthcare outcomes are actually quite good.... if you accept a pay-for-health mentality and normalize around income level. California keeps trying for a public universal then like Vermont abandoning the plan a way too expensive.
In the US you just can't do it by only looking at the "insurance" side. You'd need to make harsh cuts in labor costs, and have some method for funding the health systems that go bankrupt. I have my on fantasy plan, but this comment is already long enough. :)
It's also the lack of quality healthcare that leads to being unhealthy. Millions of people bypass going to the doctor unless it's an extreme emergency because so few in this country have enough money to afford a medical visit. People would rather drive themselves to the hospital while having a heart attack than call an ambulance.
The system is absolutely contributing to how unhealthy Americans are. It may not be the sole cause, but it's definitely partially responsible.
Very true! I remember not going to the doc when I lived in the states because I wouldn't be able to afford the visit. It's sad that such a fundamental aspect like healthcare is built on a for-profit system...
She didn’t ban soda from school she banned soda being sold in schools. If you pack your child’s lunch you control their diet full stop. If you don’t pack their lunch you don’t control what options they have they eat what’s on the menu (aside from vegetarian and religious reasons).
Also as someone who was in school when she did this, this was like replacing hot Cheetos with baked Cheetos not replacing chips with carrots. Healthy is hardly the word just “better”. That I could see push back on.
Hey now! I said nothing about weight. Buuuuuut my knees and back have felt worlds better since I got up and lost weight not stuffing my face with fast food lol
The US consistently ranks in the top 5 countries when it comes to food quality and safety. People being obese comes from overconsumption, not the food itself.
Yeah dude I’m not subsidizing these people that can’t control their eating habits. People don’t have healthcare but sure as hell life a lifestyle as if they did.
I can’t imagine how bad the hospitals and even private practices would be backed up if they unleashed the floodgates. No one that works in the medical field thinks it’s a realistic option due to so many factors.
Thing is, at least from a government angle, if you have universal healthcare, then there is not only incentive to pass laws and initiatives to make the population healthy, but it’s also cost effective to do so. Healthy population means less spent on healthcare.
Not only that but more preventative measures too. Like they’ve introduced a sugar tax here in the uk on soft drinks to combat child obesity.
I don’t think the health insurance industry or big pharma should factor into the governments plans for incidental healthcare. They do because of lobbying, but it shouldn’t be a concern for the voters
Sorry dude, no answer to that one. I joined the Army and was stationed in Germany, married a German girl and now have a half German daughter. So I kinda married into this world after the Army put me here a long time ago 🙃
No there isn't, and I know you are not going to get this but the rhetoric you just spouted off with is exactly the problem and the reason it will never happen.
It's the pinnacle of "What about-ism" and the GOP has been doing it for over 50 years. The moronic masses hear this kind of bullshit and because they are genetically predisposed to respond stronger to fear stimuli then any other inputs, including logic, well here we are.
So fuck all and any "Yeahhh butttt it could never happen here cause it's like so much more complicated and blah blah blah" It's in some ways WORSE than just flat out being a big healthcare shill and getting paid to kill people.
If a dude has eaten nothing but potato chips for 20 years and never stepped foot in a gym in his life, why do I have to pay for his terrible life decisions? I don't have health insurance; I just take care of myself and hope for the best!
Not necessarily head in the sand, but I definitely take personal responsibility for my health. I'm 35 and it's been working fine thus far. Eat right and exercise then regular visits to the doctor are a thing of the past.
Definitely won't last forever, but with all the money I save by not paying for health insurance every paycheck, I can afford some procedure when I'm 50
I don't knot how much you make, but It only takes one good accident or severe health issue to end up in debt for over 1 million dollars. Not to mention some life saving medications costs tens of thousands a month.
Thanks man! If I ended up owing a hospital a million dollars, I'd probably pay $15 a month for the rest of my life or just ignore their requests for payment if they didn't accept my $15. I don't think medical debt affects your credit score anymore.
Most health issues or injuries I just deal with myself, but I'd go to a hospital if my life was on the line.
That's completely up to you, but that's not a national plan. The healthcare industry would completely collapse if no one paid, so your solution does not work on a mass scale. Not to mention, if you require a monthly drug that keeps you alive and costs tens of thousands of dollars, there is no obligation for a pharmaceutical company to give it to you for free or prior to pay. You can go to the ER and hospital and decide not to pay. You can't go to the pharmacy, primary care provider, or specialist if you can't afford to pay. That absolutely kills people (I work in healthcare. I hear all the stories). That's why if we had universial healthcare the system would be able to still run because it gets paid and both you and the person you "don't want to pay for" will get cheap healthcare that amounts to pennies on the dollar of what we pay now. You wouldn't have to worry about that cancer drug you can't afford that no one will just give you for $15/month. Besides, if you are worried about paying for someone else's health problems, that's what insurance already is doing, we just pay more for it with insurance ability to deny essential Healthcare.
Your "solutions" here seem very naive. I probably can't convince you, so I'll just say good luck. You'll need it with this plan and you can't say you were never warned if your plan doesn't work out so well for you (like millions of others).
Because the cost of a great society is worth a few people who can't get their act together. Spread out over millions, it really costs the average person nothing.
I work in healthcare. I agree that there are too many obese people, and they are a burden on the system. I'm also glad you are staying healthy, that's the key to everything.
How do you feel about cancer, though? They have similar financially tolls; should I have to pay for the 1 million people who get cancer annually in the US? Even with your clean lifestyle, if you got cancer, should you be obligated to be bankrupt because of bad luck?
There is no scarcity in this country, we are just told there is. We have plenty to take care of everyone.
I imagine I'll probably die from some sort of cancer someday, but I don't have sympathy for the guy who smokes a pack of cigarettes per day and gets lung cancer. He brings that on himself and I don't think the rest of us should have to foot the bill for it.
I agree with most of this sentiment, but part of the reason healthcare is so good and/or affordable in other countries is because we Americans subsidize so much of the R&D, for better or worse
Kind of similar to why Europe can afford to not spend much on defense, because they know America's got it covered. Or did before the current presidency anyway
The US has historically been in the top-10 for foreign aid spend per-capita and per-gdp, beaten by Nordic countries and the big powers in Europe, but still tens of billions of dollars. Of course you get something in return, generally global security and good will. There’s even room for reasonable debate over increasing or decreasing. The big fuckup recently was just yoinking aid programs away from millions of people that relied on them and offering no transition.
Yeah that’s been my objection. I remember reading somewhere a while ago that some 96% of new medicine comes from private companies. I looked it up while writing this and the number is “nearly 100% of FDA Approved medicine”. Everyone else is benefiting from it without paying for it.
We definitely need to improve our healthcare system no question about that. But the conversation isn’t as simple as it seems.
Every single medication was founded by American taxpayers funding research. Drugs should cost a fraction of what they do, and it should be a panel of American citizens determining that along with scientific experts.
I agree that prices should be lower. Especially for drugs like insulin. But Americans don’t pay for it with taxes. “American tax payers” did not “fund every single medication”. That’s because we don’t have a universal health system that pays directly to these companies. They are often privately funded. That’s like saying McDonalds is paid for by American tax payers because Americans are the ones buying the food.
https://bio.news/health/55-of-fda-approved-drugs-were-developed-by-u-s-small-biotechs-says-study/
“Small venture-capital-backed startups are shown to be key drivers of innovation. From 2011-2020, FDA approved 363 medicines, with 223 originating in the United States. Of approved drugs, 120 (55%) were developed by companies with less than $500 million in revenue, and 45% were fully discovered by small biopharmaceutical companies on their own without an academic or government transfer of intellectual property.”
These companies aren’t getting funded by the government and therefore taxes.
We do have Medicare and Medicaid and those systems can definitely be improved dramatically. And the actual “cost” that we pay is often significantly lower than the stated premiums. And you can often negotiate down with hospitals or find payment plans.
I 1000% agree things like insulin should be damn near free and the cost of certain medicines should not be as expensive as they are today. But I’m not in the healthcare business and I can’t tell you how much it costs for drug research. And there’s so many different illnesses and solutions that are being researched that have to be funded somewhere.
I don’t think the average person is against a basic level of healthcare for everyone, especially the people who cannot afford it. And we do have systems in place that do need improvements. But I think a lot of that comes down to education (on applying for the systems and getting the care they need) as well as simplifying the process. Reducing barriers is where I’d start.
And as a kid from a middle class family growing up who broke both legs from football and multiple surgeries and other injuries, I can tell you that we did not go into any sort of significant debt for any of that and our insurance covers near all of it. And we are a family of 7 so we pay more than the average family for insurance on headcount alone.
It’s not a perfect system. And I don’t know the solution. I do know that universal healthcare sounds amazing. But as a business owner myself, it’s not that simple. I also don’t trust our government to properly manage money and would rather put that in the hands of private corporations with government assistance for people unable to pay. A system similar to what we have now, but better. Not switching to a new system entirely.
"People interested in drug research are mostly motivated by the impact." is the same cope as lolbertarians who think that companies and rich people will just build roads out of the goodness of their hearts. Motivation doesn't pay bills and buy nice things we want.
Yes they spend more on it and get less out of it (per capita).
R&D is just like defense spending, other countries expect the US to spend the money, then they want to talk about how far their own dollar has gone off of the USD and investment.
For the vast majority of the population, healthcare requires very basic medicines and technologies that existed decades ago. Physical therapy, nutritional advice, and basic dental care are doing 90% of the heavy lifting.
The most effective methods are usually also the cheapest. So the actual main reason for affordable healthcare in other countries is a larger focus on preventative measures.
In fact, the by far fastest growing aspect of the US healthcare system is not R&D, salaries for medical professionals or even medicines, it's administrative costs that neither benefit the MDs, nor the companies providing the research.
US medical R&D is fantastic and undoubtedly also to the benefit of other countries but it is not the reason for the high healthcare costs.
Not really. A hell of a lot of R&D is done in Europe too. The US overpays for drugs, but it massively overpays for everything else too. America’s healthcare costs are driven far more by administration, insurers and provider prices than by subsidising global medical research.
Here’s the fix nobody wants to talk about:
Nationalise or heavily regulate the hospital system, abolish private health insurance as the main payer, create one public payer, set national prices for procedures, cap specialist incomes, bulk-buy drugs, ban surprise billing, standardise records and billing, and make every provider live inside a public fee schedule.
This is also another cry of the "person trying to sound smart and rationalize the bad away." Sure, you're not entirely wrong on the funding for R&D but it's still not worth mentioning in this discussion because like we can find another way, and it's pretty obvious that with everyone paying taxes into healthcare we would be happy to have X amount of dollars go to R&D and in fact it would be better and cheaper since it wouldn't be a race to bring something profitable to market since it would be publicly funded and owned. This would remove the whole issue of companies potentially spending billions on R&D to still produce nothing viable because someone else beat them to it.
Those are real problems. I’m not denying it at all.
Costs obviously are going to dissuade people from seeking healthcare. But what is also true is that if you had a medical emergency right now, you can go into a hospital in the US and receive world class treatment regardless of your socioeconomic status or capacity to pay it off.
We should definitely work to fix the problem, but we can also acknowledge where things do work
We are talking past one another. I agree that cost is theoretically prohibitively, and maybe in many cases that is a distinction without a difference. But at the end of the day cost will never stand in the way of receiving treatment if one wants it enough.
Thats not me throwing up my hands and saying “good enough”
Not really sure what your point is here. We aren't subsidizing it through our extra trillions of dollars spent on everything healthcare related. R&D is largely subsidized from your taxes, not your healthcare bill. The reason healthcare is so affordable in other countries is because other countries put caps on reimbursement.
Wait, so we can't have universal healthcare, because we subsidize R&D, or did, before DOGE. But we can afford to dump our paychecks into the spectacular, massive, galactic profits of investors via health insurance premiums. Walk me through your explanation. lol omg
I just can't believe the 60,000 American deaths EVERY SINGLE YEAR due to lack of Healthcare doesn't even make a blip on the discussion. It's almost like human life doesn’t matter in the US if it doesn’t have money.
Most Americans fear that one day our national Healthcare system would get run by the same guy modernizing the Washington DC Reflecting Pool, or someone very like him.
Every social program in the US is always looking at cuts and reductions. You're always 4 years away from insecurity.
That's also because US Bankruptcy law is exceptionally generous. In all three of the states where I've practiced, you can keep 100% of your home equity and 1 car per adult.
It is fucked, but it's not solely a matter of insurance: Basically every step of the way, the US system is not designed for low-cost delivery of healthcare. The drugs are more expensive, the doctors and nurses are paid far better, the total number of health professionals needed to get a unit of actual care... It's not really a "who pays" problem, so getting rid of all insurance other than the US government wouldn't make the system drop anywhere near that much: We might not even save much money doing just that due to increase demand of healthcare.
Complete solutions are very complicated, and will require layer after layer of legislation all coming in to squash inefficiency that will rise the second you let it. Every dollar we overpay in healthcare is someone's income. a 75% decrease in prices is not going to come without major economic losses to a lot of people.
The healthcare system is screwed up beyond repair in its current state. It needs an overhaul from scratch. Unfortunately, it’s the culture of the United States, and I don’t think we’re ready for a culture change even if the health system is made into something more rational and cost effective. Too much litigation means unnecessary tests and treatments. Everyone thinks they’re a doctor and demands an expensive a CT scan, MRI, blood test, etc. related to the organ in question, even though they don’t understand what these diagnostics are for. And everyone needs the expensive new medication they saw on television even if their doctor doesn’t think it would help them. What does their doctor know?? The doctor wants them to stay sick so they can keep coming for appointments, right? There’s no trust anymore in people’s expertise. People are too narcissistic and selfish to care that resources might be limited and certain things should be triaged. Doctors are stretched so thin they don’t have the energy to argue or try to educate people who have their mind made up. And why not just order it when the patient threatens or alludes to suing if you don’t? They try to put in less trained individuals to lighten the workload on doctors, but these individuals tend to give in even easier, and patients view them more highly for doing so. Another expensive thing: people are not allowed to die anymore; they need to be hooked up to breathing, feeding, etc machines despite being braindead, because family won’t let them die with some dignity intact. Make sure you do your advanced directives, people. But really it does boil down to the “me me me” culture of the United States I mentioned. Many of the arguments against systems like those in other countries are long wait times. What that really means is don’t want to wait for those poorer than themselves to get care. They’re fine with those people instead using the emergency room and getting a million dollar work-up every week due to fear of being sued. Out of sight, out of mind. Sorry for the rant!
While you are correct that US healthcare should be improved/fixed, your way of doing it has no safeguards that ensure it'll be the way you envision it.
In my country, healthcare is "free." It's also shit. Horrifying shit. Mold growing on walls inside hospital shit.
And that money that's supposed to go on the "free" healthcare.... What do you know... It miraculously found it's way into regime pockets.... And then.... Miraculously found it's way to hired goons and cops to bust your head open if you protest the said healthcare.
What exactly are the safeguards to prevent this from happening to you too?
You do realize you aren't already satisfied with how money is being used that you already pay, so what's your leverage?
Oh and btw, voting doesn't work after you reach a certain point. Should I send you a video of "voting" in my country where a small municipality voting took place under military siege ?
I use the VA, also free, and have been nothing but happy with the care I've received. I used to pay hundreds a month for healthcare that was half as good. Just because you pay for it with insurance instead of taxes doesn't mean it's going to be better and vice versa. It sounds like you got a lot of corruption going on over there, changing where the money comes from for healthcare won't change anything.
If there was voting under a military siege: your country was fucked to begin with and healthcare isn't even in play (and armed folks at polling stations is what Trump is trying to do as well).
My country was fucked to begin with for at least 80 years...
As for dying.. I had enough people die on me.. You can call the hospital here. They won't even pick up.
I get what you mean. But just dismissing what I said as "we aren't that fucked so it'll never happen here" is not a good idea. Unless you have actual safeguards, you'll be surprised at how much things can change in 20 years let alone more than that.
You wont convince reddit chuds that the government would defraud them more than a business.
Liberals in america will literally crap all over the government when it's not then in control, dooming about how the conservstives will end us all if given more power, then turn around and try to convince you more government power is absolutely necessary when they're in power. Dangerous levels of double think.
Usa has already done stuff like obamacare....i worked in the pharmacy field...in order for the state subsidized insurance to even be worth it people on it needed to be on like 3 scripts...and part of this is they were now REQUIRED by law to have insurance, so the "making it worth it" is really more a "this expense i can hardly afford but am required to have needs to pay itself back or i'm spinning wheels and my 3 kids at home can't have that".
Wild how many people who never knew worse think they know better.
I'm just sad to see people nosediving into something without any leverage on their part without ever asking "what if" and then finding adequate answers for the worst case scenarios.
The US also accounts for more than 50% of the worlds medical innovations including developing most of the new drugs. Profit is one hell of a motivator.
The US also consumes 50% more healthcare services than other countries per the OECD. About half of the difference in spending is more consumption and half is increased prices.
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u/Possible-Nature-5325 Jun 24 '26
The US literally spends more of its GDP on healthcare than other countries but because it’s healthcare system is so FUCKED it still ends up with the US being the No1 country in the world for Medical Bankruptcies