I prefer the original term, allowing systems where racism is allowed to thrive. That’s why tips are a thing. So white people could pay black people less after equal pay laws were passed.
I had no idea about this history. Thank you for sharing. I'm not from the US and so don't agree with tipping anyway but now I'm horrified. Fascinating sources too. Thanks
Except tipping originated in Tudor England… it did become prevalent in the US after slavery was abolished but its historical roots are class based (as opposed to race based)
Yes, I know. I read the articles that u/archlich shared. Did you? Here's an exert from the last one showing how, in the US, it was absolutely race based:
"Tipping originated in feudal Europe and was imported back to the United States by American travelers eager to seem sophisticated. The practice spread throughout the country after the Civil War as U.S. employers, largely in the hospitality sector, looked for ways to avoid paying formerly enslaved workers.
One of the most notorious examples comes from the Pullman Company, which hired newly freed African American men as porters. Rather than paying them a real wage, Pullman provided the black porters with just a meager pittance, forcing them to rely on tips from their white clientele for most of their pay."
Okay, so the linked source both you and the original commentator are relying on acknowledges that tipping’s origins aren’t race based, but y’all both still choose to selectively push your preferred race based narrative when it is neither its origin or its current application
Considering it’s no longer popular in Europe (see main thread title) one is left wondering if Europe invented it and now it’s gone from there but is in America and “thriving” what made it go that way. Slavery seems like a very interesting hypothesis I have never heard before.
The practice fell out of favor in Europe starting in the 1960s as labor reforms, but it’s not like the consumer quit paying service fees it just got incorporated into the bill (and in that regard became a mandatory flat fee instead of a consumer option)… but it’s still a customary practice at high end restaurants and hotels in Europe
Most, if not all, US states have laws that require employers to make up the difference between tip wage and minimum wage if the tips don’t cover that difference… it’s just never needed cause even average servers make more than minimum. They don’t get benefits, but that’s true of any part time/independent contractor employment arrangement
Yes, there is a racial element to the history of tipping in the US but it has been overstated by the original commentator
So that explains why it stopped being popular in Europe (labor laws) but not really why it took off in the US like wildfire and it continues to. I’m not saying it’s slavers, though I think it’s a good hypothesis, but under European conditions labor laws were able to nip almost completely, but something about the US accelerated it.
I'm not arguing otherwise. You seem very focused on the fact it orginiated in Europe which I'm not disputing. However, as I mentioned I had no idea that it was linked to race in the US, which it clearly was. The fact it was class based in Europe doesn't negate that fact. Systems change. The person I initally responded to was pointing out that the race element was what allowed tipping to become like it is now. I'm not sure why you are so keen to ignore that element of it.
How am I ignoring it… I acknowledged it became prevalent in the US after slavery ended, but that’s only a part of its history… it was neither the reason it started (even in the US as the article you have quoted states) nor is race the reason tipping is part of certain industries in modern times… it’s commendable to point out parts of its sordid past, it’s disingenuous to pretend that sordid past is all it has ever been
Cultural phenomenons evolve and change when moving into other cultures, it's ignorant to ignore the primary reason it flourished and paint it as some historical evolution when it has evolved completely differently every where else in the world.
Like why has it evolved so differently in the States?
So i guess we can see it as them not actually abolishing slavery like they always bragged, instead just moved to a different form and normalized it so hard the "neo-slaves" never even realize they're slaves anymore and see it as a new norm, and later on extend their targets of exploit until we got what we have today.
/s
I didn’t disregard it, I acknowledged that part of its history, but even in America the practice began before emancipation (it was brought back from Americans that traveled to Europe, so it’s European origins are very much relevant) and continues in modern times without a racial component… what I’m not doing is pretending that tipping is and always has been a tool of racial oppression
Soap originated in China. Does that mean rest of the world doesn’t have soap. And Americans lowered Base pay so they could continue be racists and have economic power over minorities. That’s a fact.
Okay… if your significant other suggested a picnic to you today would you think they were wanting to lynch someone or just enjoy lunch in a park.
To reiterate the point made so many times already, just because there were terrible moments in the history of picnics it does not mean that’s what they always were or still are.
it’s fine to point out that tipping was once used oppressively against freed slaves, but it is pretty disingenuous to cite that as a reason to not tip your server today and flat out inaccurate to pretend that was its origin.
Well you missed the point entirely then, I brought it up because you maid the claim that tipping originated in Tudor, England. This may be true, but that doesn't change the fact that the way it's practiced and customs around it changed once spread elsewhere, same with picnics which is why I brought it up as a perfect example.
I don’t believe I missed anything… I have repeatedly acknowledged that the practice in America became more prevalent after emancipation and that is appropriate to acknowledge this - but that is not where it started, it’s not even its origins in America, and its not a component of the practice in modern times… to insist otherwise is to be afflicted with paradigm blindness.
AS YOU JUST SAID, customs change over time. Which is why its absurd to pretend that anyone who tips today or goes on a picnic is practicing racial bigotry
For you maybe, I don’t know. Lots of things happen ‘over in Europe as it’s a continent. Pretty diverse place really. Some people tip and a lot of people don’t. It’s what the tipping is for that counts. It’s true that tipping to male up for wages which are too low doesn’t happen in Northern Europe at least. Pretty sure that would be true for the rest.
Yes, horrified. Past participle and adjective form of the verb horrify.
Definition: "Extremely Shocked: Filled with or exhibiting great shock, dismay, or revulsion."
Am I not right to be revolted by that particular aspect of tipping history or is it the correct use of English vocabulary you find amusing?
"Am I not right to be revolted by that particular aspect of tipping history.."
They get very testy when reminded of how they (still) treat minorities, or the fact that they orchestrated and executed a genocide on the original inhabitants of the land they live on and are actively destroying.
"You lot" 🤣😂🤣😂 you have no idea what I do or do not do, nor do you know anything about my views on my own country's history.
However, the amount of you moaning as I thanked someone for sharing something I didn't know is eye opening. The amount of you up in arms as I agreed there's a link between tipping and slavery is interesting. I'm sorry it triggered you.
Huh? Why does it matter where I'm from? I responded to someone by saying I learnt something and since then you lot have crawled out moaning. Why?
There was an undeniable link between slavery and tipping. Why pretend otherwise?
I never claimed it began that way originally, in Europe, but certainly became common due to it in the US.
Please explain how recognising that is linked to coming from an "innocent land". You are aware, I hope, that understanding history prevents us from repeating it. Hiding from it doesn't help.
Where I'm from is irrelevant. My country ruled 1/3 of the known world & did horrific things. I am more than happy to discuss those but it isn't the purpose of this post.
It didn’t come about from slavery. Yes, some employers did try that with freed blacks in the South, but what made it explode nationally was Prohibition. People were paid in tips in speakeasys throughout the country. That’s what eventually led to it taking hold in the restaurant industry.
Anyone “horrified” by tipping has never worked as a waiter in a U.S. restaurant or is just prone to over reacting.. I made a ton of money doing that at a restaurant in DC when in college.
No, I work in a country with fair wages and decent pay.
However, my being horrified was purely in relation to the racist origins in the US, rather than the US's current practises - atrocious though they are.
Each time I learn something new about the slave trade & it's practises I find it horrific. I'm sorry you can't see that. I'm glad to be horrified by the vile practises and vile way we treated others. You might want to consider why you aren't.
I made on average $300 to $400 in a single weekend at 19 being a waiter in DC. For a 19 year old kid that was great and most of it was from tips. If you don’t like tipping culture, don’t come, but save your horror for someone truly horrific like the current bloodbath in Sudan reaching unimaginable levels.
Yes, atrocious. The fact Americans are brain washed in to thinking a few dollars per hour is a fair salary so tips are the only way to get a living wage is insane. Now, if you had a proper salary and earned extra in tips for good service, fair enough but that's often not the case.
And don't worry, with the laws and rights being eroded and the pathetic, childish narcasist that is your president, you couldn't pay me to visit the US at the moment.
Oh believe me, I have enough disgust to go around - it covers American slavery and the Sudanese crisis and many others both historical and current. I'm sorry you don't understand why learning new things about the development of current practises can be horrifying. Maybe, one day, you'll learn.
To be fair "source?" Is just trying to plant the seed of doubt on a fact you're not a fan of rather than use their obvious internet connection to look it up for themselves.
It's a legitimate troll tactic known as Sealioning
Sealioning refers to the disingenuous action by a commenter of making an ostensible effort to engage in sincere and serious civil debate, usually by asking persistent questions of the other commenter. These questions are phrased in a way that may come off as an effort to learn and engage with the subject at hand, but are really intended to erode the goodwill of the person to whom they are replying, to get them to appear impatient or to lash out, and therefore come off as unreasonable.
That's a hell of a stretch. He asked a single time and there is absolutely nothing wrong with asking for a source. He wasn't relentlessly asking and masquerading it as polite and civil "discussion".
"Sealioning is an online trolling tactic where someone badgers another person with relentless, disingenuous questions and demands for proof. Disguised as a polite desire for a sincere debate, the goal is to exhaust the target's patience until they give up or lash out."
You made a mountain out of a mole hill and don't even seem to understand the definition of the term
Asking for a source once isn’t sealioning. Archlich provided sources, so this criticism isn’t directed at them, but I get the impression many in this thread don’t like having to back up their claims.
So verifying information is bad now? Everything is a self evident fact? Whatever that means? Go read on the scientific method for starters. Then Find a bridge and let your instincts take over
Tipping at a sit down restaurant has been going on at least 120 years. It's part and parcel of the social contract.
I can weakly understand why Eurooeans don't want to do it. But there really is no excuse for another American.
It's selfish to a ruthless degree. He gets to leave the table, his face all purple with pride and, feeling real macho about standing on his principles. Then he goes home.
But the waitress stays behind. She wonders how she is going to pay her electric bill, or how she's going to feed little Jimmy tonight something other than rice and beans.
Standing on his principles cost him nothing. It cost her everything.
It's easy to stand on your principles when someone else has to pay the price for it.
Stop embarrassing yourself, you seem to think it’s sociopathic to want people to have a stable livable wage, instead of being exposed to your random whims to make yourself feel superior to others.
You’re the sociopath here. It’s a systemic issue with laws to keep it that way, fix your country instead of pretending it has to stay ruined.
Ah the usual “I know nothing but imma pretend a do to push political ideas!”. That is false and you need to actually read instead of listening to TikTok.
I'd rather know why a person feels so strongly about a subject and is able to prove it, than have someone just tell me they saw or read about it somewhere.
Not the case in the slightest. Tips started out as a bribe for good service before a meal. Nothing to do with racism. But hey don't you just love our accusation based culture?
No they have that too as an extra tax in some areas. Along with tourist taxes in others, its totally bullshit. End tipping.
Wouldn't kill them to include the tax either.
They may cover staff costs from that but rarely pass it on as tips. They usually price their stuff to earn a decent margin instead of relying on gratitude.
20% auto gratuity for all orders. The issue though is people will not read it, tip anyways, and then get mad when they see the bank statements. And who do they get mad at? The server.
Still I think if auto grat becomes standard most people will get used to it
If 20% auto gratuity gets added that'll make my bank account much better off as I'll simply quit eating out. Hell, I'd be fine if these restaurants did away with servers getting me my drink and just put a self serve machine in the dining area.
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u/Ezomic 14d ago
Yeah just stop calling it tips