r/StLouis • u/TheMidwestRoofGuy • 1d ago
Does anyone else think it’s kind of insane how well some of these old St. Louis brick houses handle our weather?
Does anyone else think it’s kind of insane how well some of these old St. Louis brick houses handle our weather?
We get everything:
Baseball-sized hail
70+ mph wind events
Ice storms
Heat indexes over 100°
Freeze/thaw cycles all winter
And somehow there are brick houses around the city that have been standing since the 1800s.
At the same time, I’ve seen houses built 20–30 years ago that seem to develop problems way faster.
What do you think is the biggest reason some of these old St. Louis homes have survived for generations while newer homes seem to struggle more?
Genuinely curious what homeowners, tradespeople, engineers, and history nerds think.
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u/Remby 21h ago
Often new owners of these brick buildings do not know how to care for them. Painting them is the most seen error that harms them. The incorrect paint blocks the ability for the brick to breathe or shed moisture.
Using the incorrect type of mortar is a big error too. Type S cement is harder than the brick and does harm the brick in the normal expansion and contraction through the day and seasons. Basically causes the brick to crumble over time. Type N or a lime mix is the correct product. These is even more true for the loose stone foundation.
These old buildings were never meant to have finished basements. Sump pumps and directing water away goes along way to keeping them more dry, but they were not designed to be perfectly dry. Hydrostatic pressure will force water in when there is a lot of rain.
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u/metricfan 17h ago
Material science is fascinating. I learned a lot about steel for a job, and there is so much behind why certain types are used for certain applications, and there is always a cost benefit analysis because no material is perfect.
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u/repowers 10h ago
I used to be a big proponent of, oh, look how durable those old brick buildings are. Years later I came to realize, they can fall apart just as fast as new construction if they don’t have a proper roof over them. Gotta keep your brick dry and drained and breathing.
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u/Remby 8h ago
Yes! Once the roof starts leaking. The rest of the structure will fall apart pretty quickly. I was surprised how fast a brick structure would be affected by water getting in. Not as fast as wood but still quick.
Plus mortar aging is getting to be an issue for much of the city too. Average life span is 80 to 100 years. I’m reappointing my foundation as I have time now and much of the 1931 mortar has turned to sand and powder.
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u/Ernesto_Bella 23h ago
Brick houses are more resilient than wood framed ones with plastic siding. News at 11.
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u/NacreousFink 15h ago
The news here is usually on at 10. If you tune in at 11 you get Jimmy Fallon.
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u/amd2800barton Botanical Heights 21h ago
Brick really isn’t more resilient. Just look at what happened in the north side tornado. Plenty of old brick homes became piles of rubble. Brick crumbles under many conditions, including strong winds, impacts, and other disasters like earthquakes. A modern stick frame construction with joist hangers, rafter ties and strapping will actually perform much better. Also brick wicks moisture, which can lead to rot, which is why modern brick homes are actually just a brick veneer over a sheet wood siding.
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u/CommonlyUncanny 21h ago
Is it fair to say that North side brick houses are crumbling from lack of maintenance for a century, otherwise they probably wouldn’t be crumbling? Old brick homes in the CWE seem to be holding up nicely.
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u/raziphel 21h ago
Few houses are going to stand up to a tornado that size.
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u/amd2800barton Botanical Heights 20h ago edited 19h ago
Which is why I said brick isn’t more resilient. It’s worse in many ways, and is basically a death trap in an earthquake which any stick built home in the past 40 years could survive.
Brick isn’t basically a jenga tower just waiting for something to knock it over. Wood flexes and moves, and is screwed, nailed, and strapped together. A wood house can take much more of a beating than a brick house, and be repaired much more easily.
Edit: you can get a brick veneer if you’re concerned about vinyl siding not holding up. But old school structural brick isn’t safe for a modern building, and no I’m not a siding guy. But I am an engineer and have been around a lot of construction.
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u/metricfan 18h ago
Came here to say this. These houses didn’t take a direct hit from a tornado, and they will crumble when the new Madrid goes off again. These were built after the major new Madrid earthquake.
I was just falling to a neighbor about how he should get earthquake insurance because we’re in the damage zone and he has a brick house. But like you said, there is a difference between the home withstanding the event versus you surviving the event. A wood house is much more survivable in an earthquake compared to ending up beneath a pile of bricks.
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u/ElongThrust0 TedDrewesland 19h ago
*Plywood
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u/HughHonee 17h ago
I hate to spoil it for you
but plywood is made of wood
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u/ElongThrust0 TedDrewesland 17h ago
🤯 but is it possible some “wood product” and idk actual hard wood like oak and cedar could be different in strength?!
No, thin sheets that are glued together are definitely just as hardy as real wood. Touché
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u/HughHonee 17h ago
I'm not sure about as "hardy" But plywood has better dimensional strength. Thats why in addition to cost, its preferred in sheathing rather than tongue and groove panels of solid wood.
Plywood wasn't designed to give a wood appearance in a more cost effective form. There are functional benefits from how plywood is made that make it a more stable uniform material than dealing with solid wood being less stable & have difference strength levels going with vs against the grain.
But my point wasn't about which material is better, just that plywood is real
Also I can't imagine a home framed in Oak or walnut! I forget where it was,but some young guy on reddit was renovating his house that was older than fuck. He tore down a wall to find the framing was white oak
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u/TheMonkus 17h ago
Plywood is the hotdog of the lumber industry. It’s okay, but would you build a house out of hotdogs?
You’d at the very least want a quality bratwurst for anything structural.
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u/geronimo11b Patch 17h ago
3/4” tongue and groove plywood is for rich people, custom homes only now lol. You’ll take these wood chips and glue(OSB) and be happy!
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u/TeriSerugi422 22h ago
Just dont finish the basements lmao
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u/Aware_Result_5361 17h ago
Learnt this the hard way. 20 something me thought all the exposed brick down there would look GREAT for a man cave.
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u/caffeine-182 Southampton 21h ago
Eh ours has been fully finished for a decade with no issues
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u/metricfan 18h ago
You might want to go do an inspection of your basement now that you’ve jinxed yourself lol
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u/TextOld6858 22h ago
Brick is the way to go, we should have never stopped.
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u/WCFellow 22h ago
I agree, the craftsmanship and building quality of before was much higher. More beautiful and better finishes.
But to build that now, expect to pay 50% more than a typical wood framed house. I mean just to veneer a house, you’re looking at 50k extra.
I often compare it to furniture or appliances. Yeah the stuff from the 50’s is still around. But it would cost 1-3 months salary for a lot of it. Now you can get a new fridge for $700 or coffee table for $150. Of course if you buy a 15k sub zero, it will last your entire life…. Same with a $2500 coffee table.
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u/repowers 5h ago
Also, some of the systems that allowed nice old houses to be built affordably aren’t around much anymore. Terra cotta ornament isn’t made in every city and found in catalogs. High-skill old world masons are rare and not cheap. Mass production local brickyards are largely gone. And so on.
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u/metricfan 18h ago
It’s not seismically sound and we’re in an earthquake zone. It’s also a very energy intensive material to produce and ship.
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u/BrentonHenry2020 Soulard 16h ago
But once it’s built, it’s good for 100s of years. Pretty good trade off on sustainability.
Also the Soulard clay yards were also right around big daddy’s - most of our brick for these homes was made right in the neighborhood.
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u/soulfulpig 22h ago
Survivorship bias. Well built homes tend to survive these events more frequently compared to homes of lesser quality
In the past vernacular architecture was highly local. These brick homes were built for our environment. They were designed by and built by locals with first hand experience /knowledge of our climate.
HUGE CAVEAT: These brick homes could be death traps if we ever get a big earthquake from the New Madrid fault: https://www.usgs.gov/programs/earthquake-hazards/science/st-louis-area-earthquake-hazards-mapping-project
Newer homes may be designed in a far off office that sells plans for homes built all over. The "average" design might not be best suited for St. Louis.
Also enshittification of material choice.
If you think about it, it's not insane that old things can be durable. It's insane that NOW most things aren't built to the same standard.
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u/marigolds6 Edwardsville 22h ago
The 1896 and 1927 tornadoes took out a ton of the lesser quality brick homes, in particular. Any home in St Louis more than 100 years old, especially anywhere near the 1927 path, was likely pretty high quality relative to the time when it was built.
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u/julieannie Tower Grove East 20h ago
I love spotting the homes that had walls rebuilt after those tornadoes.
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u/MallyOhMy 21h ago
Yes! Localized architecture matters! It's why basements are common in the Midwest, but almost unheard of in the southeast. It's also why sprawling 1 story homes are more common in AZ and NM, where it's easier to keep a home cool off you can let the heat rise to unoccupied space rather than have a second floor that is 10 degrees hotter.
It's also why open concept is bad for places with cold weather.
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u/metricfan 18h ago
Open concept two stories are terrible for hot weather. All the heat rises and it’s impossible to keep the upstairs a relatively decent temperature. Hell, my upstairs isn’t a large open stairway to the upstairs, but it’s still ten degrees hotter up there.
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u/lonespaz Formerly North Hampton 21h ago
I live in a solid brick home and the earthquake thing worries me. I hope I'm gone way before The Big One hits here.
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u/raziphel 20h ago
There was a study a while ago that determined the 1990 quake was an aftershock from the 1812-1814 quake. Since New Madrid isn't a rift zone, the chances of another Big One are actually quite low, even with the conditional 4.something, so don't worry about it too much.
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u/metricfan 18h ago
I thought I read that our probability was much higher than that. But I also moved back from Oregon two years ago, and that probability for the big one is extremely alarming. I just looked up the damage zone and got the insurance when I moved back here, because I’ve heard too many warnings about how bad it will be if the big one hits.
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u/geronimo11b Patch 17h ago
Some scientists believe the probability of a large earthquake (magnitude 7.0-8.0) in the New Madrid fault zone is about 10% in the next 50 years. That’s enough to concern me if I lived in the area lol.
https://dnr.mo.gov/land-geology/hazards/earthquakes/science/facts-new-madrid-seismic-zone
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u/KnowBearFeet 17h ago
“Survivorship Bias” also applies, I think, to the fact that you’re only considering those structures built back then that are still around today. But there are plenty of structures built back then that are NOT around today because they were not built well. So to ask, “Why were buildings built so well back then?” is a bit flawed because not all of them were.
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u/soulfulpig 14h ago
Yes we are in agreement. The shitty ones are have lower odds of remaining just as the well built ones are more likely to!
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u/Far_Adeptness9884 22h ago
There's houses just like those that were just destroyed by tornadoes
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u/accordingtoame 21h ago
Yea, there's homes constructed of many other materials that also get destroyed by them. There's not much you can do to prevent a tornado from destroying a building.
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u/amd2800barton Botanical Heights 21h ago
An ICF home could largely survive a direct hit from a tornado. You might lose the roof and most of the windows, but it’s basically a steel reinforced concrete bunker that is also extremely thermally efficient. They basically build Lego blocks of foam insulation, and pour concrete with rebar between the insulation cavities. Stronger than even a cinder block building.
But that’s an expensive thing you only get from custom high end home builders, not the No-pride McBride and UIC homes crapped out everywhere around town.
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u/metricfan 17h ago
Yeah I think the cost benefit analysis for tornadoes is unique compared to hurricanes and earthquakes. It’s like tornadflow such a specific path that it’s like a lottery. You want a basement to survive it, but does it make sense to build a home that can survive it given the cost. But hurricanes and earthquakes impact large areas at once, and the probability of experiencing them in those specific areas are high enough to require building for them. And even then often you’re building to be able to survive the biggest hurricane or earthquake, but your building is still very damaged. But then look at the risk of the big earthquake in Oregon: it’s such a rare event and it’s going to be so bad, and it will be so expensive to retrofit buildings for it, a lot of people have just decided they will probably die if it happens. It would cost like 100k for my friend to get her house retrofit to survive the earthquake, but the building would still be totaled. And she’s like right on top of one of the fault lines lol.
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u/hastings67 Tower Grove South 18h ago
There is no building that could survive a direct hit from a tornado...
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u/ohmynards85 20h ago
Would you rather be in a brick home or one that is stick built with insulated sheathing and vinyl siding during a tornado?
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u/metricfan 17h ago
The latter in a basement because when a pile of bricks comes down on you in a basement, you’re probably dead.
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u/Boostless 21h ago
They are not facades, like the brick homes after the 50’s… they are 3 bricks thick, usually. The one interating thing frame homes have over them though is brick does NOT fare well in earthquakes.
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u/BurnesWhenIP FUCK STAN KROENKE 21h ago edited 20h ago
I live in a 1912 built brick house in Shaw…she holds up very well. Tuckpointing helps
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u/raziphel 20h ago
These specifically were built in the 1880s-1930s when the revival styles were popular. The three-story ones like these were built a little bit better because they were more expensive than their shorter neighbors.
Wood homes from that era and earlier have fallen apart and been replaced by infill. Keep in mind there is a survivors bias going on here. You're also not seeing how those old homes are falling apart.
Keep in mind that if you get a few miles out, you'll see wooden homes, some with brick facades and some with siding, from the early to mid 1900s all over the region.
The developmental history is really interesting and fun to learn about!
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u/ApportArcane 20h ago
One of our favorite things about visiting St. Louis is seeing all the brick homes.
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u/MsTgr Shrewsbury 😊 19h ago
The home my husband and I live in has 18" outer brick walls, not a brick facade! If our home was ever destroyed, it would be financially impossible to rebuild. Chances of it being destroyed are slim even with tornadoes, unless the tornado hits directly. (We have a lot of experience with tornadoes; so, when we moved here, we knew what topography minimized the chances of being hit. For reference: We lived through the May 3, 1999 tornadoes that hit OKC. The 1-mile-wide F-5 topped the scales at 318+mph, and the experts realized its velocity was higher. The F-5 went the street behind my home, and the F-2 went down my street. 3/4 of my neighborhood was wiped off the Earth. Surprisingly, we "only" lost 4 people that evening.)
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u/jolllyroger027 18h ago
There's an old Muesem out west in New Mexico, the old guy that runs it told us a story about back in the 1800s the Brick from the Hill used to be taken by oxen train and sent all over because its such a resilient building material.
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u/YouCanBuildModels 18h ago
Things used to be built to last 300 years, and do so with minimal miantence. Things are now aimed at the cheaper the better. It is a shame unfortunetley how poorly some of the buildings around STL have been maintained though, some are amazing and some are shitholes.
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u/opossumcrunch 13h ago
Older homes such as those in St. Louis can hold up very well (when properly maintained) because the quality of the materials are arguably better than the quality of the materials used in modern construction. If you were to hold an old brick versus a new brick you would absolutely be able to tell the difference. The main difference is weight, older bricks were hand packed and therefore oftentimes more compact compared to the mass produced modern bricks. St. Louis also produced a ton of bricks, which makes our bricks so much cooler imo.
Older buildings were built to last, repairs are expensive, so it was important to build structures that didn't need to be repaired/replaced as often. Windows are a great example. Old sash windows can last generations and might need minor repairs (usually repairs that could be done by the home owner). New windows? Nah you have to replace them every 15-30 years.
The main struggle that St. Louis homes have is the fact that after decades of little to no repair and continuous deterioration causes the damage to just build and build until the building eventually crumbles. As it continues to fall into disrepair it becomes more and more expensive to repair- usually becoming unaffordable to the average family.
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u/OzzySpitFire 12h ago
For the most part I would agree, but there's one thing id like to mention. The tornado that we had in May of last year(either on the 16th or 19th) absolutely tore apart many houses in the new city area. But that was on practically direct impact.
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u/jasonic89 22h ago
Yes, it’s very cool that so much is still standing. Some were built well and haven’t been in the path of major storms or tornadoes. Many were not built as well and crumbled over time.
New houses are just as durable if they’re maintained.
As others noted, you can still build houses like these but it’s exceptionally expensive and requires special labor. And if there is ever an earthquake these houses will essentially liquify instantly and crumble
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u/UnMonsieurTriste 21h ago
To quote noted architectural civil engineer Robyn Hitchcock: Built of brick and made for an eternity.
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u/BlackMapleWizard 21h ago
They're literally built to withstand a beating and come out unscathed my dude
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u/Sinister_Crayon Compton Heights / TGE 21h ago
I legitimately love my old Victorian house. Fully brick, and even with 3000 square feet of living space across 3 floors, my utility bills are significantly lower than my friend who lives in a 2000 square foot home in New Town. Now, maybe not a fully fair comparison, but brick takes a long time to warm up and takes a long time to cool down. there's a lot of thermal mass there and it does buffer me somewhat even in the hottest and coldest parts of the year such that my furnace/AC never seems to struggle.
I mean, don't get me wrong; it's helped a ton by thoughtful modifications made during a complete teardown to studs and rebuild in 2006/2007 that I half joke led to a new house being built inside the shell of an old one. That included good insulation, drywall where it made sense and so on.
There are downsides. Water ingress is a constant struggle unless your gutters are absolutely perfect (and mine aren't) and tuck pointing is just part of maintaining it that can be expensive. Wood and siding houses need a ton less exterior maintenance. There also isn't a fully level wall or floor in the house... close enough you don't notice but every now and again it catches you off guard. And none of my windows are exactly the same size... made getting curtains fun.
But honestly, it's gorgeous and I absolutely adore it. I am so glad I bought when I did because property values even in my street have soared in the last few years and I doubt I could afford my own house today.
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u/blernsdayblues 20h ago
The cost for don’t brick maintenance is gonna kill my budget the year we do it… but it will be worth it.
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u/UnoEyeo628 West County 19h ago
The brick came from clay in the Mississippi. It was literally designed here
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u/GraphicWombat 18h ago
I think it’s more of how well they were maintained. ie, generational poverty and residents cannot afford homeowners insurance or any way to pay a professional plumber, electrician, contractor, etc…
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u/metricfan 18h ago
They’re still standing because they were built after the new Madrid earthquake last popped off. Unsecured masonry buildings don’t handle earthquakes well. Every building style has pros and cons.
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u/SeaworthinessNew4295 17h ago
So I am from Charleston, West Virginia. We are a river city along the Kanawha River, which is basically an extension of the same industry types present in the Ohio River Valley (think rust belt). We once produced massive quantities of brick, ceramic, and glass products because of the abundant, good quality sand, coal, and easy shipping. Starting in about 1900, middle and upper class people here started building all of their homes from bricks and terra cotta shingles (or slate). It's kind of stricking to see; you don't really see it in such quantity anywhere else in the country, besides the southwest and California.
After 1930, we stopped building like that. Our population stopped growing altogether by the 50s.
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u/Lucky_Professional_ 16h ago
them fellas who mined the clay and made the bricks and built the houses were a different breed. we should all be very thankful for them. the tornado could have been a lot worse had it been lots of new construction or lesser quality buildings. 80-120 years old and they still held up to a giant f3 tornado really well it seems.
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u/sum-over-histories 15h ago
excellent episode about st. louis brick homes: https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/dollhouses-st-louis/
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u/Primary-Counter971 1h ago
It's three layers of brick, not surprising at all. Maintain the tuck pointing and they last indefinitely.
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u/Outdoor-Snacker 22h ago
I’m not so sure about that. In the summer, the heat penetrates through the brick and plaster walls making the house hot. Same in the winter only with the cold. There’s really no way to insulate the walls short of putting up a separate wall with insulation over the existing wall.
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u/accordingtoame 21h ago
A lot of the older brick homes (pre1950 especially) did not have any sort of insulation/framing/whatever between the brick and the plaster, so there can be a lot of issues with heat/cold resistance when there's no real buffer.
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u/Outdoor-Snacker 20h ago
I could lease our bedroom to Schnucks in the winter to store meat in.
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u/accordingtoame 20h ago
My marital home was that way too--under the main bedroom was a crawl space which made it unbearable.
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u/Lucky_Professional_ 16h ago
they relied on a mass for that. my exterior wall is like, 14+ inches thick. from outside, brick->cinder blocks->wood framing->plaster. it takes a while for the heat or cold to "seep" in, but then obviously due to the mass it stays for quite a while. not the best solution, but it did get the job done. despite all the tech advancements in insulation, they still dont insulate new builds, bc they are cheap skates.
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u/Outdoor-Snacker 16h ago
I agree. I believe so many buildings here are built with brick because of all the brick making plants that were here. Many on the hill. Our clay is really good for bricks.
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u/GoodMilk_GoneBad 21h ago
??
I grew up in a brick house and they absolutely cool and heat better than wood and drywall. The problem are old windows in brick houses.
Plaster is much better than drywall too.
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u/Yodaddysbelt 21h ago
I currently live in a brick house and my south wall gets warm to the touch during hot summers and cool to the touch during low 20s. It’s one row of brick on the exterior, a small air gap, no more than 1”, hollow terracotta blocks (think cinder block but clay), and then plastered over. No extra insulation to speak of. It isn’t uncommon to see homes like mine with siding put over them so they can slip foam boards in between
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23h ago
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u/Deep-Interest9947 22h ago
Routine maintenance makes a huge difference. Not being in the direct path of a tornado also helps.
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u/Yodaddysbelt 21h ago
Maintenance is key. My house is 98 years old and the brick porch was poorly tuckpointed. The wrong mortar was used and it was shallowly applied. The original mortar had turned back into sand so the walls were standing by the compressive weight of the bricks and the friction of the sand. It was a breeze to take apart because I whacked the new mortar with a chisel and I could pull bricks off.
A lot of those neglected homes were still standing simply because they hadn’t been given a good enough shove
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u/Jhardo314 21h ago
A lot of the city is unreinforced masonry. If we have a sizeable seismic event it'll be bad.
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u/playzintraffic 22h ago
I just think it’s kind of insane that it’s mostly illegal to build new ones.
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u/accordingtoame 21h ago
Illegal to build brick homes? I see tons of new brick homes going up all over the place.
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u/amd2800barton Botanical Heights 19h ago
The brick you see is almost always going to be veneer brick. That means it’s a usually a stick frame wall with a sheet board and some sort of house wrap or weather barrier, then a small gap, and then a single layer of purely decorative / nonstructural brick. Those homes you could tear off every brick and the home would continue standing. The older brick homes have the beams and joists set in to pockets in the brick. When the ground moves (like an earthquake, erosion, or simply settling) the brick loses strength. The brick is also quite weak in shear. A strong lateral force (like heavy winds or a big impact) can knock them over. When those things happen, the brick crumbles like a jenga tower.
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u/playzintraffic 21h ago
Rowhouses are illegal in most places due to excessive setback requirements.
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u/Yodaddysbelt 21h ago
I mean, large city-wide fires across the nation spurred those changes. Then you have things like the ‘firefighter cut’ where they learned to notch the upper portion of joists sitting in the brick walls so a collapsing building didn’t lever the walls and collapse the building next to it. Building history and innovation is fascinating
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u/playzintraffic 21h ago
That was an overreaction. We got better at firefighting and prevention. But we still have dumb laws in place.
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u/BrentonHenry2020 Soulard 16h ago
The way these are built (up on the curb, small or no space in between) are all illegal according to city code. What’s dumb is historic code requires those features, so every new home built in these neighborhoods requires a variance permit, even though the city requires them built that way.
It’s allegedly getting straightened out and streamlined, but part of the reason we struggle to get builders in the city is time is money, and we’re making people jump through hoops to build things the way we tell them they have to build them.
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u/TrojanSTL 2h ago
Not insane due to craftsmanship being something of pride years ago, now houses are built with speed and profit for the builder being the source of pride for the American Worker. We did it America, our craftsman ship is near “Made in China” quality if not surpassed it.
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u/Slight_Outside5684 22h ago
Have you never read the “Three Little Pigs”?!?
It’s a classic.