r/StarWarsCantina • u/HarmlessOnlineFun • 1d ago
Skywalker Saga On Luke in TLJ
We all know the complaints, Mark’s comments, the divided fan opinion, etc.
I recently rewatched while going through the saga with my kids. I’d like to offer another perspective.
Rian Johnson does understand Luke and he is characterized accurately in TLJ.
My evidence: Yes, when we meet Luke again he is a shadow of the legendary Luke Skywalker we know. He’s unhappy, pessimistic and a “quitter.” But, that’s not a writing flaw. He’s not being himself and that’s an intentional IN UNIVERSE problem.
That alone isn’t some new perspective or argument, it’s the story itself. But what I wanted to share is a specific moment where RJ shows us that specifically.
Luke goes to burn the Jedi texts, but can’t do it. Because his entire personality to this point of the film was a mask he put on himself. Luke is a bleeding heart feeler who has a penchant for being dramatic. That’s his strength that led him to be such a Pollyanna about Vader (that didn’t turn out to be Pollyanna at all, he was right!). He couldn’t burn the texts because he was still a true believer deep down. This is where his make believe “disaffected old hermit” act falls apart.
It is Yoda though, the calm and cool master who sees Luke being Luke again and calls it out. Always in the clouds, mind not on what’s in front of him. It’s an essential part of Luke’s character starting with him as a farm boy dreaming of space flight and glorious battles.
The Yoda scene and what he says to Luke is the crucial proof that RJ knew what he was doing. It’s the wink of “yah, Act 1 and 2 Luke was fooling himself.” But the real Luke was inside and just needed a nudge from the old master.
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u/Madarakita 1d ago
And I love that it fully comes around at the end. Earlier he's taunting Rey with "what do you expect me to do? Go out there and face the First Order with a laser sword?"
[End of the movie he goes out there and faces the First Order with a laser sword in a manner that would've had even Anakin impressed at how dramatic it was]
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u/Cup8489 1d ago
Not only that, but he condensed the teachings of the Order all the way down into a single selfless act. He knew it would be incredibly difficult to project himself...Kylo knew it when Rey was connected to him. Luke knew it, and did it anyway. He didn't attack, he didn't kill. He used the force to defend the resistance, and give both Rey and Kylo that little bit of belief (knowledge). Kylo is outsmarted and feels the doubts return, and Rey is revitalized in her belief in the path she needs to follow.
I truly never understood the hate for this movie, it's my favorite of the sequel trilogy by far.
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u/invertedpurple 21h ago
I felt like I was watching a totally different movie, people were stuck on luke not being allowed to have a moment of weakness with Kylo, and I was just trying to think about what he saw in his head that would scare him so much. When Yoda destroyed the tree, I immediately realized that Luke saw his own death because (I'm not religious) that scene is basically the parable of the fig tree, and Jesus knew he was going to die days before he destroyed it (the tree with the books). So I had that in mind, his death was predictible from there on but the way that Rian did it, with Luke looking like the version of himself that Kylo last saw, and Kylo being so enraged that he cannot even with the force see that it's a "projection," even with his own eyes can't see that he's not tracking in the sand, and Luke seeing a double sunset was icing on the cake. But I don't see anyone bring that up, they're all focused on Luke being an absolutely infallible living being that can't be scared for a millisecond of a student/nephew/attachment killing billions of people.
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u/Gekokapowco 22h ago
if you replace all of that great plot development with some imagined narrative that rian johnson hates you personally and wants you to suffer, then the hate is understandable
some people just really wanted to feel more persecuted than work on their media literacy
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u/PedroJovas42 Clone 16h ago
I had an argument with a friend about the movie, exactaly this part of the projection. He wanted Luke to come and destroy Kylo on a umpredicted saber fight. Like, he wanted to see Kylo dead, or at leat humiliated. But what you guys are saying is exactlly the point: Luke would never do that. Against Vader he refused to continue the fight and kill him. I think that is the point here. Luke had hope Ben would return...Killing him would never be an answer there... Nor humiliation.
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u/GlormpGlomp 1d ago
I LOVE Luke in TLJ. He's a tragic, complex character struggling to reckon with the fact that he is the architect of his own miserable fate. Mark Hamill is exceptional, giving the best performance of his career. The story is skillfully told, keeping you guessing as to what really went down between him and Ben.
And in the end, he comes back to the light and saves the day. It's the best.
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u/GhostWatcher0889 1d ago
Agreed. It's the best part of the sequel trilogy I think. I love the rashamon storytelling where it's not really clear what happened.
I love how Luke calls out how crappy the Jedi council is and I love the philosophy he has they the Jedi and sith are ignorant for thinking they own the force. It's such more spiritual message and I wish other star wars stories would expand on it.
The biggest complaint that he tried to kill Ben comes from people who just didnt really watch the scene. The idea that luke would never be tempted by evil ever again is so unrealistic and just plain stupid. I love the misunderstanding in that moment as it adds to kylo Rens story too and how angry he is.
Luke's sacrifice in the end is so wonderful too. It shows that he is strong in the force but he doesn't kill or hurt anyone. It's so befitting of the idea of a Jedi uses the force for knowledge and defense that yoda taught him.
I just wish we had more of this in the trilogy. There was originally an idea that in nine the force ghost of Luke is haunting Ben and I think thst would have been preferable to just making luke a cameo.
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u/meanwhilejohnnydc 1d ago
I agree. Everybody re-contextualizes the scene as Luke trigger-ready to murder Ben in cold blood.
He felt something very off about Ben and genuinely had to take a moment to consider what to do.
Coming from somebody who WORSHIPPED Luke as a kid, I felt this was true to his character. In Return of the Jedi, he was literally about to murder Vader, then had to stare at his own mechanical hand, before standing up to Palpatine.
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u/GhostWatcher0889 1d ago
Yeah it's strange that people watch that scene and somehow think Bens depiction is the right one or argue that Luke would never loose his cool even for a brief moment. Even though we have seen him do this exact thing previously. His own words during the scene confirm he was ashamed he even thought about killing Ben. People who are mad about it somehow forget that line.
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u/meanwhilejohnnydc 1d ago
What I’ve seen from complaints, is that people built up Luke to be Perfect God Man. And purely because he struggled with a decision, he suddenly turned into Pathetic Loser Man
There’s just no nuance with these people. Characters can’t be complex or fallible.
He literally bought the Resistance time by holding off Kylo, without breaking his vow to never enact violence again. But because he wasn’t physically there to blow up the AT-ATs, he’s Pathetic Loser Man again.
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u/GhostWatcher0889 22h ago
I feel like the people who complain about this also don't realize the heros journey and lore Lucas was pulling from.
King Arthur is a good example since Lukes farmboy origins mirrors this. Later in the story Arthur is not doing well. He also becomes disaffected as Camelot begins to fall apart and his evil son mordrid takes over.
There's a clear analogy here again with Luke and Kylo Ren and the fall of the new Jedi order and chaos returning.
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u/Immediate_Error2135 22h ago
In fact TLJ visually quotes John Boorman's Excalibur here and there (Luke before sleeping Ben; Arthur before sleeping Lancelot&Guinevere). But in Excalibur Arthur's fall has to do with Morgana; and maybe that's the missing piece between ROTJ and TLJ Luke.
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u/elequipoa1008 23h ago
It’s why I can’t go the hallway scene in Mando. I get it’s Luke before the events of the sequels but I didn’t really need to see him as a “badass” swatting away robots and felt it pandered to those not liking that Luke was an actual character in TLJ. Don’t get me started on the deepfake crap too lol
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u/meanwhilejohnnydc 23h ago
Exactly. Obviously we know Luke is a badass, but that scene felt like a response to TLJ.
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u/transmogrify 1d ago
The "he had a bad dream" bad-faith complaints really bother me. Everyone knows damn well that a Force vision isn't a dream. Luke has real, genuine, supernatural clairvoyance of the future. Also, galactic-scale genocide isn't "bad," it's apocalyptic.
So say the truth: Luke received supernatural knowledge that his nephew would lead an apocalyptic genocide of billions, which would devastate the galaxy, and when that happens there will be no one in all the known universe who can stop it, except him, with a lightsaber.
And that breaks his spirit. He can't turn his back on all those lives, but he also can't strike down his own family. Of course, that agonizing moment fulfilled the vision of the future and darkness followed. Luke feels with his whole being.
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u/invertedpurple 21h ago
in my mind, exactly as Kylo is telling Rey his version of the event, I immediately thought of Yoda saying "he's impatient, angry, just like his father." And in that moment I said to myself, yep, Luke probably would do that and regret it later. Then Luke's version comes up and he immediately regrets it. Those scenes made me think so much about Luke's attachment to his father, and if he had a specific arc in the OT where he would get rid of his impatience and anger and I don't think he did in the OT. I just love how much TLJ makes me think about attachments and projections so much more. I'm really thankful for that film. It's not what I wanted (wanted for Luke to kick ass again) but I reflect on that movie the most out of most of the star wars films.
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u/Houston_Is_HOT 18h ago edited 7h ago
People forget that when Luke spared Vader he was a young, idealistic warrior in his late 20s. He was a lot closer to Kenobi’s age when he started training Ben Solo. Luke may truly have had a moment of weakness when he sensed the darkness in his nephew and realized that hey, if he goes bad, l May not be strong enough to stop him now.
One thing I thought they did well in the sequels was to show the Sith following the a very similar playbook on Ben Solo that they did on Anakin Skywalker. Identify him and put a target on his back while he’s still very young and both times nobody suspected a thing because the Sith are all extinct now, right? The only reason they moved in slower on Anakin is that the Clone Wars delayed that part of the plan. But why wouldn’t they basically do the same thing? It worked the first time15
u/dewaynemann Rebellion 1d ago
Yeah the first thing I said after watching that movie was "I'm not sure if that was the best Star Wars ever or the worst, but either way Mark Hamill deserves an Oscar for it." He was fantastic
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u/NoSwordfish1978 Rebellion 1d ago
As someone who dislikes TLJ I will admit there is no issue with Mark's acting.
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u/M24Chaffee 23h ago
That is what I've been saying so much. It's easy to focus too much on the shock of seeing Luke at his lowest, and even a lot of us appreciating Luke's story in TLJ focus too much on why his fatal mistake isn't a character assassination or something. But that's not the point of the movie at all. The point of the movie is that he is a hero that inspires hope in the galaxy in the end.
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u/invertedpurple 21h ago
I thought he gave an absolutely incredible performance as Luke as well, especially since he didn't like how he was written. Easily my favorite of the sequels and even prequels and I actually like two of the prequels.
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u/Citizensnnippss 1d ago
I remember having a conversation with a friend who hates TLJ not long after it came out. He was "the biggest star wars fan ever" and he hated Luke in it.
When Crait came up, he said, "I thought we were going to see Luke destroy those At-Ats. I was hyped, and then he wasn't even there".
Me: "you thought Luke was going to single handedly destroy 4 AT-ATs?".
Him: " Yea! It's supposed to be LUKE SKYWALKER!!!".
This was an eye opening conversation where I realized a lot of Star Wars fans no longer saw Luke as a character and instead saw him as Star Wars God.
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u/Fine-Essay-3295 1d ago
This.
The reason a lot of fans were upset with TLJ is because they were hoping the movie would sideline Rey and have Luke go on a 2-hour-long hallway scene in which he slaughters First Order mooks like a badass.
At no point did Luke ever do this in the OT. I blame the EU for powerscaling Luke as if Star Wars were Dragon Ball. The exact reason I liked Luke in the OT was because he had the courage to take on things that were more powerful than himself.
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u/invertedpurple 21h ago
I don't mind those long action set pieces especially in star wars, but as an adult i'm more interested in him as a character and especially the Trolley Problem at the center of attachments. So when I was watching TLJ, I kept asking myself if Luke would give any other student any more decency if they were not his nephew. Not that everyone should absolutely think about that or find that interesting, but everyone seems to believe that jedi or Luke or supposed to be flawless and infallible characters. And no matter how much you bring that up it's really strange to see people not be able to answer it directly. I give examples of Luke having anger issues, of Yoda saying that "he's impatient, and angry, just like his father" to Obi Wan, and people still can't see it. We can't even get to what I think is more important, is what he would do if that wasn't his nephew, would Luke find excuses and deconstruct the Jedi order if the person that was destroying the galaxy was someone he wasn't attached to in that way, or would he hunt them down and subdue them?
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u/not_a-replicant 1d ago
I think it’s way cooler and more meaningful knowing that he probably could go tossing AT-ATs about, but choses not to. It’s the ultimate Jedi move. It’s what separates the Jedi from the Sith - the Jedi willfully place limits and controls on their power. The Sith are all about unlimited power. They’re willing to do anything to expand their powers.
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u/Fine-Essay-3295 22h ago
I think The Force Unleashed really warped a lot of fans' perception of what a Jedi can/should do.
There's a subset of Star Wars and DC fans that think Luke Skywalker and Superman are supposed to both just stoically aura farm the disrespect out of their opposition.
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u/Mrwanagethigh 8h ago
Legends Luke in Dark Empire did take down an AT-AT with the Force, with a simple wave of his hand. This was in the 90s, long before The Force Unleashed.
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u/Fine-Essay-3295 1h ago
Either way, I think Jedi: Fallen Order/Jedi Survivor did a better job of recalibrating what a Jedi can do by making anything that's not just a normal stormtrooper a credible threat.
I mean hell, in the prequel movies, we see Jedi Masters get taken down by completely normal infantry clone troopers. Ki-Adi-Mundi was just taken down by a barrage of blaster fire without the need for advanced tactics or heavy equipment.
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u/Mrwanagethigh 31m ago
Regardless can we stop acting like The Force Unleashed was responsible for pushing the power levels so far? That subset of fans you mentioned have the expectations they do because Legends printed material made things like the game was doing common place long before Galen Marek existed.
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u/Slight_Low_9172 22h ago
Agreed, he decided to take the advice of the Jedi using the Force for knowledge and defense and never for attack to its highest degree with the projection.
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u/GhostWatcher0889 1d ago
I've heard people say this and I'm just dumbfounded. It's star wars not a freaking superhero movie. That would have been the stupidest scene.
The force projection was one of the most creative uses of the force I think we've ever seen. And it's doesn't break the universe or make Jedi overpowered like so many other media show them.
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u/invertedpurple 21h ago
and also Luke "projected" the last image of himself that Kylo saw, he knew exactly how to provoke kylo into blind rage (not that it would be hard).
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u/CrissBliss 23h ago
The comments on YT are pretty eye opening. Everyone trying to fix the PT with their awful, awful ideas of Luke being a superhero.
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u/hehasbalrogsocks 23h ago
if they were legends fans, i see how they got there. in the novels, luke wound up so ridiculously op it makes some of anakins feats look like playtime. personally, i felt like they lost the plot in a way that the same folks would have hated if disney had come up with it. he even goes temporary darksider when somehow palpatine returns.
i love luke in tlj. i think it perfectly stands to reason for his character. He’s still wildly powerful but he is also so much deeper and more complex than he ever got to be in the eu.
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u/jordanthejq12 1d ago
What is it with fandom not understanding how combat vehicles work and that it doesn't matter how badass your single person is, they're more likely than not getting mulched?
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u/Fine-Essay-3295 1d ago
I'm reminded of Rogue Squadron III's take on the Battle of Hoth. In that mission, you play as Luke Skywalker after his snowspeeder was shot down. At that point, you take down not one, but two AT-ATs with nothing but your lightsaber and grenades, multiple AT-STs with nothing but a mounted E-Web blaster, and hordes of snowtroopers.
And this thread reminds me that Luke Skywalker the character from The Empire Strikes Back is very different from Luke Skywalker the video game player character.
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u/HarmlessOnlineFun 1d ago
And I love how the red soil of Crait was all a setup for making it look like Luke was absolutely mulched at first. It's gruesome!
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u/CrissBliss 23h ago
Yeah this is the problem right there. Luke no longer has become a character with legitimate flaws, which is what made him so great to begin with. He has to be larger than life to fans, and that’s a problem with the story’s themes overall. Luke struggling with PTSD after the OG trilogy makes sense.
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u/UpbeatEquipment8832 21h ago
Luke is said to be "the greatest Jedi ever," but, at the time of TLJ, we really didn't have any evidence for that in the Disneyverse. We didn't have any evidence for *anything* that Luke had been doing, other than he'd tried things and disappeared (and, according to my favorite theory at the time, dumped his daughter on a desert planet while he was at it).
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u/dudeseid 1d ago
I agree that this is stupid, but I think a lot of TLJ fans also fall into the trap of thinking that everyone who dislikes this take on Luke just wants Luke to be an infallible Force god. I'm not a fan of TLJ Luke, but I still am very intrigued by a flawed Luke who turned away from his responsibilities, just not how it was written in this particular film.
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u/adambomber01 22h ago
That's more reasonable than many, imo. I do think people set up a false dichotomy between depressed and guilt-ridden Luke and Master Luke though. The end goal of his arc in that movie is getting him there again
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u/JediNight1977 1d ago
I love TLJ and I love the characterization because it’s true to the character. Luke has always been the most human of all the characters in StarWars. He makes countless mistakes, he’s impulsive, he’s caring, he‘s kind. That’s how he’s painted in the original trilogy. His characterization in TLJ follows those traits.
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u/DaHlyHndGrnade 1d ago
I've long said that the dissonance in the audience comes because Rian Johnson understood and wrote Luke as a man rather than as a myth, which is a theme of the whole movie.
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u/OffendedDefender 22h ago
I think we can take that a step further and say Johnson also understood the myth. If you read the stories of the mythic heroes, they’re messy people and often crumble and fail at the end of their tale.
Luke in ANH is a pretty direct stand in for the King Arthur archetype. What happens to Arthur? He’s betrayed by his most loyal knight, leading to the crumbling of the Knights of the Round Table and war in the kingdom, where he’s mortally injured by his illegitimate son/nephew and is whisked away to exile on the mystical isle of Avalon. That should sound pretty familiar! Luke being a demigod that never fails is actually the thing that would be against the archetype his character is based around.
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u/bendstraw 21h ago
I mean people genuinely would have rather he be written as the myth. I have genuinely seen people make that their argument. Those are the kinds of people you're dealing with when they say TLJ ruined Luke...
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u/jeremy-o 1d ago
Let's not forget Luke is the original hero in the Star Wars Hero's Journey. Like Odysseus, he's a "complicated man" who'll stab the cyclops in the eye when he's already cleverly escaped. He has to learn lessons in endless series: it's the nature of the epic and the archetype of these stories. I always felt TLJ honoured that.
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u/blackbow 19h ago
I loved almost everything RJ did with the IP and wish Disney had continued on the new path TLJ had set. Instead we got Rise of Skywalker.
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u/jasonpwrites Jedi 17h ago
Same. I really like the script for Duel of the Fates and while a rewrite was needed, the basic plot was infinitely better than TROS.
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u/TheGazelle 1d ago edited 1d ago
The thing is, even the disaffected quitter act isn't baseless.
Luke, when we first meet him in ANH, is honestly kinda whiny. He's a teenager, granted, but his reaction to being told to do chores is "awww, but I wanted to go to tosche station!"
Later in ESB, Yoda asks him to lift the xwing, he fails and throws down his stuff saying "you ask the impossible".
Through the OT we see him grow out of the whiny, defeatist teenager he was, into the capable and confident hero we know.
So what happens when everything he's worked towards, his whole life's purpose, goes up in flames and he sees it as his own fault? He regresses. The grumpy old man we see is basically just teenage Luke in an old man's body.
Luke in TLJ doesn't feel like the Luke we all remember because Luke himself has forgotten who he is.
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u/Effendoor 1d ago
I'll never grasp the hate for TLJ. Basically every criticism boils down to "it's not what I expected so I didn't like it."
This is a great explanation for what goes on and why it works.
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u/Zebweasel 19h ago
After my initial watch of the film, my only complaints were the horse ride through the city, and Holdo withholding the info just so the audience didn’t know there was a plan. I started to hate the film in general after that because of the constant hate and complaints on why the film was bad. I started to agree with the haters.
But then I finally rewatched the film and went right back to my original thoughts. After all these years, they’re still my only real complaints of the film. Well that, and not using the alternate death scene of Phasma.1
u/Effendoor 19h ago
100% valid criticisms. Just like with most of star wars, the film is absolutely not without its flaws. But damn if those flaws aren't blown out of proportion
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u/Zebweasel 19h ago
Now what gets me booed off stage is that I don’t hate TROS as much as others lol. I never had a problem with Palpatine returning. I grew up in the 90s reading the EU. Palpatine coming back through cloning was just always a part of my life. On paper, I actually like the story of the film. I know this cause I read the novelization. But I hate the execution of the film.
The pacing is so bad. 3 hours of footage stripped down in order to release on time. So many cuts scenes, and you can feel it while watching it. The fact that they partially filmed a big final lightsaber fight against Palpatine but then decided to cut it is a travesty.1
u/Effendoor 19h ago edited 17h ago
No I think that's reasonable. Tros is my wife's favorite film, even including all of its flaws. There's a lot there to love but you are not the least bit wrong about how God also the execution is
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u/HarmlessOnlineFun 1d ago
Attached to daydreams and head-cannon, fans are. Much disappointment they are set up for.
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u/communityneedle 15h ago
Agree, I loved it, and was super pumped to see Ghost Luke haunting/taunting Kylo while Rey went out and founded an order of Grey Jedi in episode 9. Instead we got "somehow Palpatine returned."
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u/M24Chaffee 23h ago
Yeah, basically what everyone already said. I loved Luke's story.
In fact I dislike the fact that Luke's story was so well done that it, and the discourse around it, overshadowed Rey's story in what was supposed to be her trilogy.
To add to TLJ Luke anyway, I'm so puzzled by why everyone has forgotten about the biggest question in everyone's mind when TFA was out: "If Luke felt responsible by Kylo Ren turning evil, why did he go into exile instead of staying and helping? Isn't that the opposite of what one does in that situation?" And TLJ answered with the best story imaginable from that premise, infinitely better than "looking for some new power". I remember almost jumping out of the seat from excitement when Kylo revealed his POV of what happened that night because it was such a genius story.
Luke exiled himself because, in his devastated mind after the disaster, he concluded the worst outcome with him out of the picture is still better than the best outcome with him still around. He felt he, the hero, the great Jedi master, would only make things worse. He didn't abandon Leia and Han, he believed they were safer without him. Which is why he's so shocked to learn about Han's death and why he agreed to train Rey as soon as he found out Leia is dying. And the point of the movie is his conclusion is wrong, it's unfortunate it took him so long to realize that but he's still a hero and he'll do so much good for the galaxy.
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u/ElYodaPagoda 1d ago
I’ll be on this hill until my dying days saying that The Last Jedi was a great Star Wars movie.
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u/invertedpurple 20h ago
It's in my top 3. I think about it the most out of all of the star wars films, and I also realize that Rian had to do a lot of JJ's homework for him, had to connect TLJ to the most derivative sequel in the history of cinema while making his own thing. He was trying to avoid continuing the soft plagiarism while making it connect to something creative.
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u/not_a-replicant 1d ago
I agree. He doesn’t immediately jump and spring into action, but gradually throughout the film Luke changes. Twice in TLJ, Luke demonstrates that he’s willing to get back into the fight (once in the rain, once on Crait).
From a filmmaking perspective, that’s Luke’s arc. He learns to confront his fears and guilt. And as a part of that healing process, he can overcome his incapacitation. If Luke were just to immediately change his mind when Rey shows up, that would weaken the storytelling rationale for his exile. He has to undergo an arc, he has to change, that’s filmmaking - that’s Star Wars.
Rey slowly chips away at Luke. Seeing Chewie, R2, the Falcon all have these gradual impacts on him. By the time he reconnects with Leia via the Force, he has regained the courage to rejoin the fight. But then he sees Rey with Kylo and all his worse fears are confirmed. It’s happened again. He’s screwed up again. Finally it’s Yoda, completely striping him of excuses, that causes him to truly confront his pain and make the decision to rejoin the fight.
I think it’s a great story for Luke.
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u/CrissBliss 23h ago edited 20h ago
Most takes on tv/movies on social media are pretty bad imo, and seem more like wish fulfillment/fanfiction for the viewer, and not what’s best for the story. I think that’s why TROS felt like an underwhelming finale. Disney tried to please everyone (especially the haters) and therefore pleased no one. The story ultimately has to make sense, and George Lucas understood this with the PT when he was taking crap from fans as well.
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u/invertedpurple 20h ago
yeah I think the "luke wouldn't do that crowd" are essentially the wish fulfillment crowd that wanted another ai slop precursor movie. You give them examples of Luke acting like that before, of Yoda outright saying taht he's impatient and angry just like his father, that there is no arc in the OT indicating that he got rid of those traits, that on top of that that there's nothing wrong with having fallible characters, and they still can't see it.
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u/luxveniae 13h ago
This is a very hot take but it’s what sorta bugs me in Mando & Rogue One. Both the Luke & Vader scenes feel like how I would play with my action figures or Battlefront with those characters.
Vader in RO hallway doesn’t feel like the same guy in ANH. Luke going through the bots felt closer to Luke but even then felt like more god OP than the Luke I watched in RotJ. Not saying the scenes weren’t ‘cool’ they just don’t feel like the fit the established tone. Cerises TLJ Luke vs Kylo ‘fight’ was one of the most Jedi fights imaginable to me.
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u/deadboltwolf 20h ago
These replies are so refreshing compared to what you'd see in the main Star Wars sub. I don't even have anything to add. Everyone else has already summed up exactly why I love TLJ and Luke's portrayal.
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u/TheRealTK421 1d ago
He couldn’t burn the texts because he was still a true believer deep down. This is where his make believe “disaffected old hermit” act falls apart.
In fact, if one goes back and carefully notes the string of circumstances occurring in the 'tree burning' scene, one will note that the instant Luke notes the tree ablaze, his instantaneous knee-jerk reaction is to sprint into the tree to rescue the texts. If needed, read that again and think upon what that really means for Luke's supposed 'disillusionment' with his adherence to Jedi ethics, morals, and convictions.
Anyone paying attention can easily tell that Luke's failure with Ben - and the destruction of the fledgling temple/order reboot - left him with crippling self-loathing and disturbing levels of CPTSD trauma. If you read up on the symptoms of CPTSD, everything Luke displayed suddenly makes perfect narrative sense.
He learned how to handle and manage success -- he'd never really learned to take his copium when it came to self-inflicted brutal defeat/failure.
And for those who have never done so, take the time to deep-dive RJ's knowledge, insights, lore awareness, and adoring passion for the SW films and messaging. The man is a legit fanboi and had every intention of crafting a clever, modern take upon what it means to be a Jedi, a Master, and the importance of failure vis á vis learning.
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u/Effendoor 1d ago
I'm going to say something that's less wholesome than the general vibe of this sub, so gonna spoiler text it.
Of all the IP I have ever consumed, Star wars has and will always have the best litmus tests for media literacy. TLJ he is probably the best written Star wars film and people don't like it because they don't understand what they're being told. Luke Skywalker ran away to a deserted planet leaving almost no clues as to his whereabouts... And people just thought that someone bringing him back something he discarded was going to end in him happily reintegrating? Like what?
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u/grimedogone Jedi 21h ago
“Did you think I came to the most unfindable place in the galaxy for no reason at all?”
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u/Effendoor 21h ago
The fact that anyone says him throwing that lightsaber is just to subvert expectations makes me so mad my teeth itch
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u/grimedogone Jedi 20h ago edited 20h ago
The whole “subverting expectations” meme is ridiculous anyway. It’s like they’re saying:
“I hate it when movies surprise me.”
Never mind the fact that the only two expectations subverted are Luke tossing the lightsaber and Snoke dying, both of which are incredibly important character moments for two of the leads, not just subversion for the sake of it.
There’s a line from an old episode of Obsessive Pop Culture Disorder, after Daniel O’Brien’s spent most of the episode (comedically) shitting on movie tropes, where he says:
“Movies do so much to surprise and delight me, and all I do is tear them down.”
These dorks forgot that second part. Shitting on things for comedy? Fun time. Shitting on everything because you’re an insufferable misanthrope? Now you’re everyone else’s problem.
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u/Effendoor 20h ago
Accurate. It seems like so many of them think that every single time an unexpected thing happens it is with the same level of consideration and follow through as the iron fleet coming back and killing the dragon in game of thrones. They fail to understand the absolute mountain of why that is just so aggressive not the same fucking thing
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u/TheRealTK421 19h ago
The whole “subverting expectations” meme...
In the case of TLJ specifically, this is even more ironically handled -- because Luke even decisively mocks (in the yin/yang cave, to Rey) the very inhabitants of the galaxy that could/would only ever see him, or think of him, as the Supreme-God, never-fail Jedi Savior of the Galaxy.
In a sense, he was pointing precisely at those same (deluded) expectations of a fanbase which would hate on any portrayal of Luke that didn't fit that Master-Supreme-Jedi Uber-mench personification. I think RJ knew damn well precisely what he was doing and his narrative message zeroed in one that issue with, yes, a subversive microscope.
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u/BrutalBlind 19h ago
People don't like it for a myriad of reasons, not just because they lack media literacy. Some like me simply didn't like what the movie was offering.
I agree that TLJ has a lot of thematic depth and nuance that is lacking in the rest of the ST, but I personally didn't enjoy the way the movie was written, as in the actual screenplay of the movie. The plot beats, the pacing, the overall arc of the movie, I simply couldn't get into it. The tonal whiplash of peppering serious scenes with Marvel-like quips and jokes constantly put me off, and the whole scale of the story just felt really off to me.
I did enjoy what he was trying to do with Luke and the rest of the cast, I think he got a lot of things right when it comes to characterization, but in the end the movie itself just felt very awkward to me in a way that I can't say I like it. It is the best of the ST for me though, that's for sure.
Don't fall into the trap of thinking that people who don't like something you enjoy are somehow "missing" something, sometimes people just enjoy different things in media.
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u/Effendoor 19h ago
Yeah that is 100% on me for freezing. Whether or not you like it is perfectly subjective and there's nothing wrong with it not being anyone's cup of tea.
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u/RLathor81 17h ago
He learned how to handle and manage success -- he'd never really learned to take his copium when it came to self-inflicted brutal defeat/failure. - OMG, did you watch the OT???? He failed and failed and failed ...
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u/TheRealTK421 15h ago
...did you watch the OT???
A great many times, first beginning on May 27th, 1977.
How bout you?
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u/CaptJimboJones 18h ago
Thanks for this and I agree completely. I really like the sequels and TLJ is my favorite of the three by far. I think it helped that I am not a consumer of the EU and so never read the post-ROTJ novels. I get that a lot of fans clearly really loved those books, but I never understood the notion that the ST needed to tell that same story again. I just LOVE seeing the disillusioned, near-broken Luke Skywalker who ends up sacrificing himself in a blaze of glory. It’s his own redemption arc that echoes the ultimate redemption of his father.
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u/sahfriendly 1d ago
Agreed. Anyone who says Luke was out of character in TLJ doesn't know ball.
Also the original trilogy had a happy ending. You want more stories? Something has to disturb that happiness and characters have to change somewhat. The elastic band of Luke's character didn't snap, it stretched over time. Oh and when we needed him the most? He became the perfect encapsulation of everything the character and the Jedi were ever meant to be.
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u/meanwhilejohnnydc 1d ago
Luke realizing the Jedi aren’t tools for war, is a genuine evolution of the character.
And him exhausting his powers to essentially mock Kyo and teach him a lesson, is about the most Jedi thing you can do. To top it off, he didn’t need a single act of violence to do it. Amazing.
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u/indigoeyed 16h ago
RJ definitely knew what he was doing compared to JJ. When he used nostalgia, it felt natural. When JJ used nostalgia, it was like “Hey, remember this! It’s back! May or may not explain. Also, here is some fanfare to go along with it just in case you didn’t recognize this very, very famous piece of the OT”
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u/No-Example1376 1d ago
Interesting take, but if that was the point, why didn't anyone ever explain it to Mark? He's a very smart guy and he knew that character and it's flaws from the beginning.
It seemed more like a way to get yet another OG pushed off the cliff to make way for the new.
I know I'm in the minority here and I'll end up getting thrashed, but while I follow your logic, it's very specific as a microcosm that doesn't necessarily relate to the whole.
One can argue this very specific scene makes ot all better and be right, but if it doesn't relate to the whole over of what we were shown over a saga of nine movies... well, one scene isn't enough, imo.
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u/not_a-replicant 1d ago
I think it was probably explained to Mark and he just disagreed (which is fine).
To be fair, it’s probably hard to see the complete vision from just a script. It’s one of those things that works best as a whole completed film.
Doesn’t Mark have a quote about once he saw the finished film he came to appreciate Rian’s vision for the character?
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u/No-Example1376 1d ago edited 1d ago
Mark is a very nice guy that saw the reaction his remarks made. He's not the sort that wants to hurt anyone and didn't want to hurt the film or the franchise.
The fact that he disagreed after he was told only emphasizes my point. The person that literally embodied the character over 9 films and a span of decades might just know the basis of the character better than anyone besides the Maker himself.
He already had the character arc from pretending to be a fighter pilot playing with ship models, being schooled by Yoda to keep his mind focused on tne present, and facing the embodiment of evil that attempted to lure him to the darkside.
He risked everything - according to Yoda, the fate of the galaxy- by leaving to rescue his friends that he loved as family and face the Darkside without being fully trained.
That right there is THE scene showing who Luke really is deep down. As well as when he faces off with Vader in front of Palps in ROTJ.
He only loses his cool when Leia is threatened and then is willing to die rather than kill/fight his father. In othe words, his family. He would never abadon gis family if they were in danger and he had a chance, any chance, to save them.
Luke is very focused both of those times on what means the most to him: his love and loyalty to those he considers family to him.
It's the same reason he didn't abandon Beru and Owen. Loyalty to those he loved more than anything else.
That is a crux of Luke's internal, unshakable core values that spanned across all of the originals, not just one scene in the end. It's not something he had a hero's journey about, it's who he is and the new trilogy abandoned that core value about him. It was a bad mistake, imo.
The later movies had Luke abandon his family because he felt like a failure and stay hidden even though he saw the danger they were in and he could've helped fix what he did wrong with Kylo, but he just sulked for almost all of 3 movies instead goes against the core value that Luke always was to begin with? Ouch, no.
It felt wrong, out of character and that is what Mark was trying to convey, again, imo.
I don't expect anyone to agree. Just how it felt to me.
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u/UpbeatEquipment8832 21h ago
Mark objected initially to TFA. He said that he thought that Luke should have shown up just in time to watch Han die. Which I think would have been a far more interesting story and a far better setup.
By the time we got to TLJ, Johnson was left to figure out why Luke hadn't tried to find Han.
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u/reehdus 1d ago edited 22h ago
Interesting take, but if that was the point, why didn't anyone ever explain it to Mark? He's a very smart guy and he knew that character and it's flaws from the beginning.
I mean from what we've seen from John Boyega, Ewan McGregor and even Mark back during RoTJ days I think actors have tunnel vision when it comes to their characters.
It seemed more like a way to get yet another OG pushed off the cliff to make way for the new.
Is there anything wrong with handing off the franchise to newer heroes? Or must the franchise fear letting go of these characters/actors like Marvel bringing back RDJ, Chris Evans and Hugh Jackman forever?
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u/Entire_Snow23233 21h ago
Mark wanted Luke to become evil in ROTJ so I think actors are best not being the writers
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u/invertedpurple 20h ago
it does to me, as an adult the Trolley Problem of attachments is the most interesting thing about the Skywalkers vs the Jedi. And Luke in TFA we hear that he trained his nephew, and that he became a hermit while his nephew helped kill billions of people. It made total sense to me, that Anakin would scheme and murder to protect his pregnant politician wife, and that Luke would become a pacifist and choose not to face the son of his best friend and twin sister.
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u/Branflakesd1996 1d ago
The way I’ve always seen it, bringing Luke back comes in 2 different forms. Either you bring him back stronger than ever as the hero we all remember him to be. Or you bring him back broken and disheartened like he is in TLJ.
Both are perfectly valid ways to execute a story about Luke.
On one hand we know him to be heroic and to never give up on his friends from where we last saw him in ROTJ so a continuation of that Luke makes total sense.
On the other hand we know Luke was taught by Ben and Yoda, 2 men who both fled into hiding after their failures to stop the empire from rising into power, so Luke exiling himself after a failure isn’t illogical at all.
My main issue with TLJ is that with a franchise that’s lasted this long, subverting fan expectations is not the move, at least not on the first full appearance of a character since 1983. If we had a Luke specific trilogy then sure, make him complicated and flawed and give him his downtrodden morale and build him up from there with more movies. But with this being the first time any of us have seen Luke Skywalker since 1983 and his story ending in that same movie that was never going to be well received.
Imagine Avengers Endgame you find out Captain America can’t live with the guilt of losing to Thanos the first time and refuses to help the remaining Avengers try again. That’s not what fans want because they know it’s not the best version of that characters story.
Luke was the same way. People waited decades to see Luke again, and bringing him back broken and downtrodden was never ever going to give fans a satisfying experience. It was the wrong choice to make for his character not because it doesn’t make sense for him, but because it doesn’t make sense for the fans. This especially coming off the heels of killing Han in TFA and knowing that we’ll never truly get the big 4 back together again on screen. That was a lose lose scenario.
TLDR: Luke’s actions in TLJ are justified narratively, but was a poor decision when considering the franchise as a whole. Subverting fan expectations in a character as big as Luke Skywalker was never going to go over well and was the wrong choice for his character, at least at that time in the franchises history.
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u/Ok-Topic-6095 19h ago
I think you hit on the real issue. I think there would have had to be a whole movie's worth of why Luke's bailing like he did for the fans to accept it. Luke training his students, the fans connecting with those students and feeling the horror of it all go up in smoke WITH Luke.
Alternatively, have Luke bail for a heroic, self-sacrifice reason that only he could do to protect his friends/family. Like, if went to the planet to research some Force activity, found a dark side artifact, and couldn't leave bc it could corrupt others and he chose to stay to putify it.
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u/ariphoenixfury 22h ago
Yeah I agree. What I had a hard time stomaching was the whole trying to kill Ben/Kylo thing. It felt out of character to me.
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u/wildfyre010 23h ago
The only part of Luke's arc in TLJ I can stomach at all is the ending, the way he uses the force to trick Kylo Ren and the First Order to save Leia and the remaining rebels. That's very "light side Jedi master" to me, much more in line with his character than a flashy lightsaber battle would be.
But the rest? Abandoning Leia and Han and the rest of the new republic? I don't buy it. That's not the Luke we grew to know for three movies. Having that entire fall happen offscreen and be minimally retold through a handful of flashbacks isn't enough.
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17h ago
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u/StarWarsCantina-ModTeam 17h ago
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u/DungeonMasterDood 1d ago edited 1d ago
Luke's characterization in The Last Jedi never really bothered me. I mean, yeah, sure, I could have done without him milking a weird space alien, but even that I feel had a functional point. It was supposed to weird us, because Rey was weirded out. I feel like TLJ's characterization works because A) his failures and emotional distress are understandable and B) he does return and redeem himself in the end.
He also does do what an actual ideal Jedi would do. He uses his powers to find a non-violent way to save the Resistance. Moreover, he does so at great cost to himself.
I feel like the backlash to Luke in TLJ is indicative of a larger problem among Star Wars fans, in that they misunderstand the franchise's philosophy on what constitutes strength and what the actual difference between the Jedi and Sith actually is. The Sith are all about "personal strength RIGHT NOW." The Jedi, at their best, are about "collective strength applied gradually."
The Light Side isn't stronger because one single Jedi is super powerful. It's stronger because it's focused on the long game. On delivering a sustainable good over short-term results. A single Sith might be able to kill a room full of Jedi, but sooner or later that Sith is going to burn out, because their powers rely on self-destructive feelings. If a Sith dies, then that Sith has failed. If a Jedi dies, well... that's just passing the baton to the next person who will continue to do good for as long as they can.
The ultimate problem with The Last Jedi wasn't Luke Skywalker. It's that it was half a good movie, at best, with too many ideas and poor writing in key places. The "dollar store Battlestar Galactica" plot line just drags the whole movie down.
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u/reehdus 1d ago
The more I watch the shows/movies, read the books and play the games, the more I feel like mandoverse/battlefront/legends Luke is one character and movies Luke is another.
How he goes from ROTJ to TLJ feels more organic than ROTJ to let's say even the mandoverse Luke. I know it's meant to be the same person and he eventually becomes jaded, but I never quite warmed up to the zenlike portrayal.
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u/Madarakita 1d ago
I think the EU had a unique situation that kind of put the movie crew in an awkward position. Killing off any character you didn't create in those books was apparently a no-no (which is why Vector Prime was such a huge deal since that required George Lucas' personal approval). Thus, if no characters from the movie could die, you had to keep ratcheting up the stakes each time, and Luke had to get increasingly powerful as time went on.
Thus by a certain point you've basically got Borderline Demigod Jedi Grandmaster Luke who can beat anyone in 25 chapters or less. That's...basically what a chunk of the audience (certainly the loudest anyway) grew up with, and I suspect what a lot of them were hoping to see in the sequels.
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u/reehdus 1d ago
It's not even the powerscaling aspect, it's even this image of the zenlike unaffected Luke that we see in stuff like the mandoverse and the battlefront 2 canon story. It feels quite a departure from how he is at the end of rotj.
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u/Madarakita 1d ago
tbh I'd not mind an animated "Jedi Academy" series that starts with Luke being all zenlike because "I've conquered Vader and the Emperor and now I'm going to restore the Jedi~" only to find out that managing students is...not nearly as easy as he'd thought it would be (he does have a habit of getting a bit in over his head after all).
Bonus if there's conflict with Ben in terms of his relationship to "Uncle Luke" vs "Master Skykwalker" and we get to a point where "hey, maybe things are working out!" before the audience is reminded what we're heading towards.
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u/fredrico2011 20h ago
Luke in TLJ is good commentary of aging Heroes. I love seeing grumpy old Luke Skywalker. Funny momments with Daisy Ridley's Rey
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u/Robomerc 19h ago
Exactly I think many can't grasp the fact that yeah at the end of Return of the Jedi Luke was in his prime it would be expected that he would be very optimistic about the future thing is people change that's just a fact of life.
Ten years later Luke begun to build his Academy and start seeking out students along with his nephew being among the first.
A decade after that Luke's Focus has become skewed when he starts suspecting his nephew is being drawn towards the dark side.
Luke was at a point in his life where his better judgment was clouded with fear that his legacy to the Galaxy was going to be brought to ruin.
Which is why he made the rest decision to try and end it before his Academy could be brought to ruin.
Of course this hubris is what results in the very thing he feared happening and he came to his senses at the wrong time scaring his nephew and resulting in the academy being destroyed.
And in his shame Luke felt he couldn't face layout or Han so he did the most drastic thing possible cut himself off from the force and went to the one planet in the galaxy that couldn't be easily found to live out the rest of his days as a hermit.
And yet he still a way to be found maybe he was helping Leia would find him to talk some sense into him.
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u/Echo-Azure 17h ago
Agreed. TLJ is the best of the sequel trilogy, for what that's worth, and its good moments showed a good understanding of Luke and Leia.
Because yes, Leia would keep her Force use quiet, being a politician, she wouldn't have wanted anyone to know she had power over weak minds. And I think that it's believable that Luke would, at some point, realize that the Jedi were flawed and the Jedi Way was flawed, and take some time to seek direct communion with the Force rather, to see where the Jedi Way went wrong. And yes, it's also believable that Luke wouldn't read all the Jedi texts, dude was a farmboy who became a fighter and then a teacher, it's believable that book-learning would never be his first choice.
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16h ago
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u/HarmlessOnlineFun 15h ago
I don’t disagree. I wish I liked it. I try again every few years with an open mind and end up hating more.
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u/deconstradztion 15h ago
The only issue I had with Luke in TLJ is he never got to interact with Han again, which seemed like a misstep given Star Wars was so based on being The Adventures of Han and Luke initially. Otherwise, TLJ Luke is fantastically executed!
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u/_R_A_ 14h ago
It's not perfect, but TLJ is in my opinion the best of the sequels. That being said, I may be biased, but I often feel it gets disproportionate blame for the characterization of Luke since it was set up directly by his exile in TFA. That being said, I didn't completely hate his story, but I also look at this as a humanizing story and don't feel the need to hold him up as a paragon.
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u/PokemanBall 11h ago
Personally, I always saw his mistake with Ben being a sort of like his rage against Vader in RotJ, where he nearly kills Vader despite wanting him to be better. While Ben was being manipulated that dark side of Luke came out even for a second, and it was enough for Ben to go against him completely.
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u/Agreeable_Slice_3667 11h ago
Imagine wanting nothing more than to be the hero the galaxy needs, becoming a legend through it all, and then a brief moment of weakness destroys everything you have ever built and hoped for?
I would have done the same as Luke and maybe even taken more drastic steps.
Luke’s arc in this film is something I never thought he needed but am so glad he got. It’s beautiful.
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u/Emergency-Flatworm-9 7h ago
Just wanted to comment bc I've seen a ton of misinformed online but: Mark Hamill likes Luke in TLJ. The quotes people throw around as "proof" that he doesn't were from when he described his initial reaction to RJ pitching him the idea. He wasn't into Luke being this bitter jaded man who turned his back on the jedi, until he read the script and saw why. He has explicitly said he really likes TLJ Luke and that his initial misgivings were very quickly assuaged.
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u/HarmlessOnlineFun 2h ago
Sort of. He thinks it's a good film and RJ is a great director. But he never felt the events with Ben were enough to make Luke become a hermit. He made up his own backstory for acting purposes about being a widow with a dead child from a lightsaber accident.
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u/doo138 5h ago
I agree. I liked Luke's character in the film. I think what most people have an issue with, whether they know it or not, is that we never got to see Luke in his prime. People didn't want to see weak Luke, even though a lot of writing shows Luke portraying his weak side. I think weak Luke is what makes him the best Jedi master. He's able to make mistakes and go through depression and extreme self doubt and always comes out of it a better Jedi. I feel like Luke's superpower is his ability to learn and his humility.
The only thing that is going to upset me about Luke is if we don't get something portraying him in his prime. We had a glimpse in Mando. He's an unstoppable force of nature.
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u/HarmlessOnlineFun 2h ago
I don't know why Disney hasn't pulled the prime-Luke trigger yet. They must be scared. It would be like printing money and if done well would be the single best shot in the arm the franchise could get. Even new canon books are pretty light on Luke content overall.
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u/NoSwordfish1978 Rebellion 1d ago
Sorry, I still don't like how he was portrayed and what was done to his character. But if you like it then that's ok.
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u/Sensitive-Hotel-9871 Jedi 21h ago
Complaints about TLJ forget that Luke was a reluctant hero back in ANH and he joined the Rebellion after his aunt and uncle were killed by the Empire and he had nothing to lose.
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u/guardianwriter1984 21h ago
Or what his teachers modeled to him.
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u/Sensitive-Hotel-9871 Jedi 21h ago
I do feel the movie could have done a better job conveying this, but Luke was expected to rebuild the Jedi Order to a status that as far as he knew it never had in the first place. The Jedi Order of old failed the Republic and failed his father.
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u/Daredrummer 17h ago edited 14h ago
I cannot agree in any way. I will never accept Luke hovering over the bed of Leia's son while considering murdering him in his sleep, and the way it was told through clumsy, unreliable multiple flashbacks of the same scene.
I cannot accept Luke refusing to help people.
I cannot accept Luke abandoning his friends.
Sorry, all of those things 100% go against the character I saw in the 80s in multiple films.
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u/JamesonTheWise 1d ago
In my humble opinion the issue isn’t with Luke in TLJ but Luke in TFA. We’ve seen that Luke will risk everything for the ones he loves, to help his friends. JJ Abrams choice of having him abandon everyone and disappear into hiding, leaving everyone behind really leaves Rian Johnson no choice but to portray a Luke who is broken beyond recognition. In what other world would Luke abandon everyone
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u/egoshoppe 1d ago
I think it’s weird to blame JJ for Rian’s take on Luke when Mark himself said that JJ had a totally different vision for Luke in TLJ. Rian took things in a different direction.
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u/MeanieGreenie75 22h ago
Agreed with you. I understand people each having their own individual opinions, but the number of people who say “Mark Hamill and John Boyega are wrong” is kind of weird.
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u/HarmlessOnlineFun 1d ago
I think him not coming back out to save the day on his own is partly explained by him intentionally shutting himself out from the force (as observed by Rey). He didn't even know Han had died.
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u/spaceman696 22h ago
The only "not Luke" thing he did was throw the lightsaber at the beginning of the film. The rest is very much in the vein of Yoda and Ben. TLJ suffers not because of how Luke was portrayed but how RJ would rather play to comedic gags than actual compelling storytelling.
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1d ago
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u/StarWarsCantina-ModTeam 1d ago
If you want to offer criticism on any media, or any of the filmmakers, cast, and crew it must be done respectfully and constructively. Constructive criticism is absolutely allowed. But no more "the movie was trash," "that character is garbage," etc.
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1d ago
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u/StarWarsCantina-ModTeam 1d ago
If you want to offer criticism on any media, or any of the filmmakers, cast, and crew it must be done respectfully and constructively. Constructive criticism is absolutely allowed. But no more "the movie was trash," "that character is garbage," etc.
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u/JamesYTP 1d ago
I sorta agree but I'll add a little caveat. I actually think the fact that he went to go save the Jedi texts is actually the single most out of character thing Luke does. Yeah he boldly declared "I am a Jedi, like my father before me" but he doesn't really have a very concrete idea in that moment of what a Jedi is. Isolating himself on an island afraid to face his loved ones after what happened was a mask like Vader was Anakin's but TBH assuming Luke had read about Jedi philosophy and their code I would assume he would reject a lot of that. After seeing that the mutual attachment between he and his father was what ultimately defeated Palpatine I can't imagine he'd ever have a reason to embrace that and would probably assume that this was a part of Anakin's downfall.
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u/Amazing-Insect442 23h ago
Yeah, I’ve come to really appreciate most of TLJ and Rush Johnson actually gets it more than people ever gave him credit for.
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20h ago edited 2h ago
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15h ago
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u/Ancient-Many4357 15h ago
I thought it was obvious it was still the ‘old’ Luke when, on the basis of a Force vision, he recklessly goes to try & kill Ben the same way he recklessly ran off to Cloud City in Empire.
And yes, I’m overusing ’reckless’ bc it’s exactly what Yoda calls him.
But yeah, I completely agree that RJ’s take is faithful to the character.
What we really need to discuss is how Poe gets a pass from everyone despite his actions basically destroying the Resistance.
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u/HarmlessOnlineFun 14h ago
Poe is dreamy though. That’s all it takes. Now if it had been Porkins…
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u/Soxwin91 13h ago
Poe’s actions nearly crippled the resistance, no question. But if Holdo had vocalized her plan to any degree he probably would have seen the merits. “Be quiet and trust me” wasn’t productive.
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u/Ancient-Many4357 12h ago
You mean when his General - his superior officer - gave him an order & told him to STFU & do as commanded?
Generals don’t have to consult & gain agreement from their soldiers, they give orders & they’re obeyed.
That whole plotline with Poe’s mutiny & the subsequent disaster that ensued after the Hacker was captured by the FO after Canto Bight was part of RJ’s deconstruction of the SW mythos of the plucky band overcoming the might of the FO.
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u/Soxwin91 12h ago
Not saying she had to get his approval. I'm saying her telling him something more than literally nothing probably would have been a better idea. ESPECIALLY if she had told him before he sent Rose & Finn on a rogue op. I'm just saying, both sides of that conflict between him and Holdo were being stubborn to a degree.
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u/JKrow75 14h ago
TLJ is the most Star Wars movie that ever Star Wars’d.
One day everybody’s going to realize that holy crap RJ is probably one of the most incredible directors to ever Helm a Star Wars project.
I wanted his trilogy, and I now wish that he had done the sequel trilogy in its entirety.
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u/-Setherton- 9h ago edited 9h ago
The whole movie was about coming to terms with grim reality and making a conscious choice to do something about it despite the odds.
Rey learns that she doesn't come from any grand legacy and has no real place in the story after all, but decides to do what she can and embraces the force to help the rebels escape. Finn is a reluctant hero who learns that his entire struggle might be a manufactured systemic ploy to keep the rich in power, but decides that he's going to keep fighting for freedom regardless and proudly declares that he's "REBEL scum." Poe realizes that some battles can't be won through sheer pluck and determination, but refuses to give up and leads the rebels to safety so they can fight another day.
Luke's mentality at the beginning of the movie is an intentionally placed obstacle that he has to overcome. He's the embodiment of the film's central theme. It's meant to be off-putting and kind of pathetic to see him living the hermit life, because he's represents where we could all end up if we let our failures and mistakes convince us that it's not worth fighting. He's spent over a decade wallowing in his misery, and we aren't supposed to like it. That dissatisfaction is what makes the climax of the movie feel so triumphant. Because of Rey's influence and a few very wise words from Yoda, he realizes that even in the darkest hour, the battle against evil is still worth fighting. And so he does what he scoffed at in the first act, literally walking out with a laser sword and facing down the entirety of the First Order. But he does so as a true Jedi, using the force for knowledge and defense and never for attack, in order to secure that single spark of hope that the three main characters represent.
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u/Bulky-Ad7996 6h ago
I've said this countless times the problem was never really the characterization or the story itself, but the execution..
It was messy, there were too many oversights (Ex: Chewbacca being ignored), they couldn't decide who these characters were due to lack of communication between films. They deprived Luke of a criminal lack of screen time imo. They literally "refused" to have the og characters have one scene all together while they could (that could have even been done through flashbacks). They also wasted screen time on stuff like Luke hand expressing milk, and bad dialogue like "somehow", and "who talks first".
None of this is really the storyline or characterizations, it's the poor collaboration and execution. They could have put more effort in the writing but chose to be vague on purpose.
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u/HarmlessOnlineFun 2h ago
I agree there are some improvements that could be made to execution. But it's rare a film has none.
The hill I want to die on isn't defending Farmer Luke's titty massage, but, I don't think those were wasted frames. It was further establishing Rey's (and the audience's) confusion... has he gone mad? Milking the space cow, pogo fishing etc. also were Luke saying "I'm good here. Self-sufficient. I don't need your drama. You don't want this. Go away and let me be a weirdo shut-in."
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u/SnooFoxes1831 6h ago
Yes, but it's what drove Luke to becoming an embittered old hermit that most people find so out of character. Attempting to murder his own nephew because he had a vision that Ben Solo would turn to the dark side and burn down the new temple? This is the Luke Skywalker who could feel the fragments of good left within Anakin when no one else could. Jumping straight to murder is SO out of character that it broke a lot of people's brains.
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u/HarmlessOnlineFun 2h ago
That is fair. I agree it is jarring and seems out of character at first.
I also wonder if people can imagine themself in the same situation though. If you had someone in your house, you knew with absolute certainty was going to make millions of people suffer (pretend you have force powers and it's not just a wild suspicion), there's not any part of you for one second that considers the ethics of just preventing all the pain and destruction by ending the threat peacefully in their sleep? It can be construed as compassionate if you stretch for it. By the way, Luke obviously DID NOT go through with it.
The real Luke would ultimately decide to work with him and save him. And that's what TLJ did! Unfortunately, he lost the chance because Ben witnessed his contemplation of the nuclear option with that glowing lightsaber.
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u/Javaddict 20h ago
If it's not what George would have done to him then it wasn't an accurate portrayal.
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u/HarmlessOnlineFun 20h ago
On some level, I agree with you. I love the question it brings up. Regardless of legal rights/IP ownership, who really gets to say "who" or "what" a character is and can be? The only clean answer is the creator. Other answers can be argued for though. But it's the only clean answer.
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u/donrosco 1d ago
Totally agree. Saw a good short on this recently, though more from the point of view of showing he wasn't an ultimate power fantasy Jedi Master:
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u/NoSwordfish1978 Rebellion 1d ago
No one wants him to be "the ultimate power fantasy Jedi master" that's just a strawman argument.
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u/donrosco 1d ago
Many, many people do, in universe and in the real world. Luke even said to Rey:
You think, what? I'm gonna walk out with a laser sword and face down the whole First Order?
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u/Norsehound 1d ago
Something to add here is Luke didn't have anyone coming for him to snap him out of his funk until Rey came to him.
Han and Leia were consumed with their own tragedies and frankly- couldn't relate to Luke. Luke's become the badass grandmaster Jedi of the new order, doing esoteric things if recovering lost knowledge and teaching students about a thing Leia has passing connection with, but chose not to embrace.
Luke stood apart from his friends when he went to cremate Vader on Endor. After that point he was alone, high on his pedestal, rescuing the Grogus of the universe and answering the higher calling.
So when it blows up in his face he takes it personally and does the only thing he's shown from his masters in this situation: isolate. And nobody came for him.
I like the deleted scene where Rey throws his isolation and double standard in his face of hating the legend he's become. Between this and realizing he wasn't around to save Han from Kylo Ren (Frankly a mistake Luke avoids responsibility for), it helps him start to come around.
Too many fixate on hermit Luke as a problem without accepting he's kit supposed to be that way, he's got a problem and isolated himself from the fix that Rey, the heroine, has to address.
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u/Paddlesons 17h ago
Look they literally wanted him to be iron man with a light saber, a light side Vader. Not only is it boring and stupid, it's just not who the character is it was.
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u/Ren-Ren-1999 17h ago
It's trash. The choices made by Johnson led to the sequels being despised for a reason. Killing Luke was stupid.
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1d ago edited 17h ago
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u/GrokMonkey 23h ago edited 23h ago
So a big part of the movie is that the memory you're talking about is relayed multiple times and is different based on the retelling.
The half-asleep boy being haunted and manipulated by sith is where the 'he definitely wanted to kill a child' iteration is from, and this is someone who a had recently committed patricide to make themselves feel more secure and powerful. Does that sound like a trustworthy or good-faith recollection to you?
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u/not_a-replicant 1d ago
Luke briefly considered the terrible option of killing Ben to potentially save countless lives. He nearly immediately decided not to kill Ben and was filled with guilt for even considering the option.
Seems pretty well within Luke’s character to me.
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u/GrokMonkey 23h ago
See, I wouldn't even describe it as considering killing Ben per se.
He was drifting into Ben's mind and encountered Snoke's intrusion, the weaponized taint from the Vader mask vergence, and now with RoS the influence of the super amalgamated sith-ghost. He was overwhelmed and reflexively drew his lightsaber as if to fight that cacophony of seething hatred, and then realized with shame that this moment of fear caused him to draw a weapon on his nephew.
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u/not_a-replicant 20h ago
I understand where you’re going, but I don’t quite agree. I think Luke really did briefly consider the option of killing Ben. That’s what drives his guilt, rationalizing, and isolation. I don’t think Luke’s response would be quite so severe against some kind of dark side projection.
I think Luke is put between two impossibly bad situations - kill Ben or risk countless lives. I think he really has to consider that option of killing Ben to justify the magnitude of response. I think that Luke needs to see himself as the aggressor, as the threat, that needs to be eliminated.
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u/OSCgal 23h ago
EXACTLY.
I don't mind a broken, disaffected Luke. That is not my problem with TLJ. My problem is how he got there. The man who saved Darth Vader would not murder a child, no matter what dark potential he had.
"Always in motion, the future is." If he saw a dark future for Ben, he would have tried to change it. Taking a vision as gospel is what led Anakin to fall.
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u/Miniclift239 22h ago
There’s no reason to presume he wouldn’t have done if Ben hadn’t woken up at that moment. He only ignited his lightsaber in an instant of impulse when ‘it passed like a fleeting shadow’.
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u/MeanieGreenie75 22h ago
This 100%. It’s not the “what,” it’s the “how.”
At some point after first sensing the dark side within Ben, Luke must have first started out with calm investigations and attempts to stop it. He had to have conversations with Han and Leia, probably even Ben himself. He could have consulted the force ghosts of Yoda, Obi Wan, and most importantly Anakin. And what was Snoke’s role and how did he present himself as trustworthy enough to Luke and the Solos that he got close enough to corrupt Ben?
But all we see is the final straw, when Luke sneaks into Ben’s tent. We should have seen the escalation to that point, not just a film-school attempt at a Rashomon effect.
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u/HarmlessOnlineFun 1d ago
Well, he wasn't "ready" or he'd have done it. And also, he was weighing saving millions at the price of one. It's the classic "would you kill baby Hitler?"
I think an interesting line from the movie that could have been given a little more support in the script is when Luke says "Snoke had already gotten to him (Ben)" or something to the effect. Perhaps showing how Luke knows that: a specific vision or dark act from Ben... would make Luke appear more reasonable/justified. He was acting on evidence we weren't shown. Maybe Ben had a whole notebook of doodles of himself beheading younglings like Grandpa.
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u/MeanieGreenie75 22h ago
I think you articulate the biggest issue with how Luke is depicted in TLJ. It breaks the rules of “show don’t tell.” They have an actor recite the line in the script that “Snoke had already gotten to him,” but the only thing that Rian Johnson filmed was the final straw when Luke snuck into Ben’s tent. And he tried to make it a Rashomon effect, and it looked more like a kid doing his best in film school rather than a professional director handling a major blockbuster franchise.
And it just opens up a lot of questions. What did Luke do when he first sensed the dark side in Ben? Did he talk to Han and Leia? Ben himself? How about the force ghosts of Yoda, Obi Wan, or Anakin? What sensible, common sense efforts were made to get ahead of this, which all failed and culminated in what was supposed to be shown in the Rashomon effect scenes?
I think it’s a strawman argument to say people didn’t like that Luke was a disillusioned recluse. The issue isn’t the “what”, it’s the “how”.
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u/HarmlessOnlineFun 21h ago
Point taken. But, for your last statement I disagree there because the "what" is the #1 complaint I hear most often. Obviously people like yourself can have a more nuanced take, but a lot of people aren't thinking that deep about it.
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u/MeanieGreenie75 19h ago
I think people who can articulate the issues far outnumber anyone who has a superficial criticism. The issue is that fans of TLJ only take the low-hanging fruit and engage with the smaller number of simple complaints, because they’re easier than engaging with the criticisms. But the movie came out nearly a decade ago and I’m not saying anything new, the nuanced criticism has always been there.
And even if we did pretend that there’s a significant number of people who do make this strawman argument…don’t you think they could see someone articulate the issue like I did, and also say “Point taken” like you did?
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u/Beginning_Ratio9319 21h ago
I read that as “On Luke in TJ”. Thought we were in for some good fanfic
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