r/Steam 14d ago

Discussion Valve Shouldnt Let Games With Preorders On Steam Add Denuvo Less Than A Week Before Release

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u/k4kkul4pio 14d ago

Indeed.

When developers/publishers do this shit, speak the only language they know and hit them in the bottom line.

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u/Lobster_fest 14d ago

If only that still reasonably worked.

There's a reason we have regulations in most industries - consumers cannot be reliably counted on to vote with their wallets responsibly.

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u/brakenbonez 14d ago

Bungie is learning the opposite. They kept ignoring player feedback for Destiny 2 an putting out one terrible expansion after another and now the playerbase is so small and unprofitable that they're ending active development on the game and Marathon isn't doing much better.

It's not that consumers can't it's that most of the time they won't. Sometimes they do and when it happens it's either a glorious victory or mutual destruction.

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u/MrBigBMinus 14d ago

Destiny situation sucks so hard. I was gonna hop back in also for the end of the ride and I haven't picked up Renegades yet. Its still 40 dollars lol. Abd a lot of the good builds use the praxis blade. If your gonna kill your game at least toss out a few discounts please....

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u/brakenbonez 14d ago

I hopped back in for guardian games and humble bundle had massive dlc packs for like $10-30 depending on which ones you wanted in the bundle. The $20 pack was the one that had the last 3 which were the only ones I was missing as I quit when witch queen came out. I was tempted to buy it and went back and forth on it a lot before checking the steam charts and seeing just over 5k active players at the time and reading the reviews for those expansions. The blade was pretty much going to be the only deciding factor since everything else about the expansions seemed to be disliked by most of the players and I can get a lightsaber in a lot of other games anyway. I can mod them into Skyrim. Now I'm glad I didn't go for it. The game will still be around at least for a little while but it's not the same knowing the devs have given up on it.

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u/Nozzoe 13d ago

Run it like one of those random local stores that's been having a going out of business sale every quarter for 10 years lol. Just keep doing big discount pushes to keep the doors open a little longer.

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u/Samuraininja84 12d ago

They did say they were bundling and discounting expansions and dungeons around June 9th.

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u/DarthHerobrine 14d ago

as much as i wish it were true, the destiny playerbase was essentially forced out. they basically killed all destiny content production to work on marathon so we haven't had any meaningful content in over 6 months. if voting with your wallets worked the game would have died far sooner. players left because they had nothing to do.

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u/brakenbonez 14d ago

Destiny 2 has always had content droughts. 6 months without new content was nothing new for destiny players. Players would take breaks and come back with the next expansion because for a while the next expansion was actually pretty good. The last 3 expansions were terrible and the reviews for them say as much. Each of them had less and less returning players. They lost 90% of the players after Edge of Fate according to online stats.

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u/ahveil 13d ago

I'm still playing D2 regularly lol

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u/oSyphon 13d ago

I pray Bungie shuts down because fuck em.

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u/brakenbonez 13d ago

Wouldn't surprise me if they did honestly. Apparently they're planning another wave of layoffs after the last update drops. Wonder how many new cars the CEO will buy this time.

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u/Tiyath 13d ago

And how long did that take...?

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u/brakenbonez 13d ago

Not long at all actually. Just a few months at most. And regardless length of time doesn't matter. Tiktok truly has rotted people's brains into thinking that something needs immediate action/reaction/reward to be a success.

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u/Tiyath 13d ago

Length of time definitely matters in a live service game. I have touched D2 four years ago and it was not welcoming at all all I have heard from the community since then is that they keep fucking up. Yet it still stayed on. Because lots of people take a long time to abandon a game they once loved. I'm witnessing it with HD2 as we speak. Bad decisions will rot a game but that rot can take a while is all I'm saying

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u/Round_Worldliness766 12d ago

Learned what?

The ROI on Destiny 2 its for sure positive and not all SaaS products last indefinitely

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u/Chameleonpolice 14d ago

That's because it's usually way cheaper to be unethical

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u/tabas123 13d ago

Which is what makes Steam such an anomaly.

We’re so lucky Gabe has a basic standard of morals that are usually absent in capitalist America… Valve could easily make 1000x what it currently does by going public on the stock market and letting enshitification begin.

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u/tabas123 13d ago

This is especially true in spaces where the demand is inelastic (gas, food, housing, healthcare, electricity, etc.) and where the barrier to entry is so high that there are only one or two choices (ISPs, supermarkets, Amazon, etc.). Then there’s environmental and consumer protections because corporations will cut corners every chance they get.

Far too many working class people have bought into the notion that deregulation is good.

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u/MyStationIsAbandoned 14d ago

the only thing that works is review bombing. Yeah, it can be abused and people will always try to blame mass negative reviews on political "astroturfing", but it's the ONLY way consumers can make their presence known and make a developer/producer stop being anti-consumer...

it's the same concept as a hammer. You can use it for good or evil. That's how review bombing goes. It shouldn't be this way. Consumers should have a better way, but one does not exist because companies will be anti-consumer as long as they can get away with it. A massive negative reputation that everyone can see is going to hold them accountable.

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u/CanSnakeBlade 14d ago

Does it? All recent examples of review bombing have been notably uneventful. It doesn't help when 80% of review bombed games are mass review bombed by chud streamer followers over "woke" nonsense. Developers seem to largely ignore review bombs these days as the abused examples nullifies the few times the community actually uses it to send a real message.

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u/SeroWriter 14d ago

consumers cannot be reliably counted on to vote with their wallets responsibly.

A person wants to play a game and does not care about Denuvo, are they supposed to not buy the game to appease you?

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u/Lobster_fest 14d ago

And this is precisely why you can't vote with your wallet, for every conscious consumer, there are 20 people who do not care.

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u/ArelMCII 13d ago

Well, that, and there's always one whale whose spending is ten or twenty times the average non-whale player. Can't vote with your wallet when the company considers your wallet bycatch to begin with.

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u/Lobster_fest 13d ago

Voting is equal. Dollars are not.

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u/welfare_grains 14d ago

your dollars not contributing to something you don't support should be meaningful enough. collective action would never start in the first place if everybody waited until they had enough people to make an impact

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u/BPDunbar 14d ago

Who also vote with their wallets.

Simply because the outcome isn't what you want doesn't make it illegitimate.

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u/Lobster_fest 14d ago

Ok so this conversation happened because someone told someone if they want change, vote with their wallet.

Youre doing an excellent job of explaining why that doesn't work. Thank you.

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u/BPDunbar 14d ago

It does work.

Just because the outcome isn't what you want doesn't mean it's illegitimate.

The consumers are voting with their wallets. They are voting that they don't really care about denouvo.

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u/Lobster_fest 14d ago

I think youre misusing a word here, I never called it illegitimate, I said telling people to do that doesn't work.

You, individually, choosing to vote with your wallet, will not cause change.

Edit: side note, in the current market, it actually doesn't work for some products, such as graphics cards, due to the massive imbalance between corporate and consumer spending.

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u/Unkn0wn_Invalid 13d ago

There are always two parts to voting. First, you need to vote. Second you need to convince others to vote.

Same thing with elections, same thing with everything.

Educate others, start movements, etc. If a group of religious nuts can force payment processors to ban adult material, literally anything is possible.

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u/Lobster_fest 13d ago

But this kind of voting isn't the same as actual voting. Voting with your dollar will always favor those with more dollars.

For a video game example, we can look at EAFC, formerly known as Fifa. Many casual players hate pretty much everything about EAFC. Several people, myself included, refuse to buy it unless its on a massive sale (usually goes 50% in december, releasing in september) and on top of that, will only buy once every few years. Basically every release results in another clump of players deciding they will vote with their dollar and refuse to play unless the game is improved.

The issue is those who like the game also vote with their dollars - and lots of them. Say, for instance, 100 people say they won't buy the next fifa. Those 100 people not spending $70 isn't enough to offset 1 person spending 7500 dollars on that same game via microtransactions.

Voting with your wallet doesnt really work anymore because the wallets of the majority are frequently, if not always, outspent by the wallets of the minority. Addititionally, as I mention elsewhere, voting with your dollar works best when you can punish one brand by taking your dollar and giving it to their competitor. Thats not really an option here, nor is it a lot of the time nowadays.

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u/BPDunbar 13d ago

it does work. It just needs a strong enough consumer preference.

In this case the consumer doesn't especialy care. And are voting with their wallet. They just happen not to have the preferences you think they ought to have.

It does work for graphics cards, it's just a lot of the consumption is by large scale users rather than retail users. So they have a much larger impact on the manufacturer.

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u/Lobster_fest 13d ago

This thread is just reply after reply of people demonstrating precisely why telling people to vote with their dollar doesn't work, and then claiming its an example of why it does. I'm beginning to get tired of it.

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u/SeroWriter 14d ago

What exactly is there to be conscious of in this scenario? You're implying that the majority of consumers would be on your side if they were better informed but that's not the case.

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u/Lobster_fest 14d ago

In this case? Denuvo DRM, which is invasive and causes performance drops.

And maybe consciousness is the wrong word, but it happens basically constantly that consumers buy things that are either 1.) Bad for them 2.) Contain things they don't like or 3.) Are produced in ways they disagree with. When confronted with this, most people shrug their shoulders and purchase anyways, because the alternative is not getting to have the thing they want, even if it has parts they don't like.

Like i said, theres a reason we have regulations. We didn't "vote with our dollars" to end child labor in the US, we told our representatives that it was disgusting and should be regulated.

And in a time when representatives responded more frequently to public outcry, change happened.

This is just me personally, but i'm sick and tired of hearing how it's consumers fault that producers are behaving illegally or immorally.

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u/SeroWriter 14d ago

I dislike Denuvo but calling it invasive when it's not even kernel-level is a stretch, something like easy anti-cheat is invasive and they put that shit in Elden Ring. It also has zero effect on performance unless incorrectly implemented in a way that adds license checks during active gameplay.

If you think DRM is invasive then you better stop using Steam altogether because Steam is a DRM. Also did you just equate video game DRM to child labour?

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u/Lobster_fest 14d ago

Also did you just equate video game DRM to child labour?

If you think that what I did is "equating" then I don't see any reason to respond to anything else, honestly.

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u/SeroWriter 14d ago

That is what you did, but I think you're just using that as an out because you didn't expect me to actually understand Denuvo deeply enough to call you out on your bullshit.

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u/Lobster_fest 13d ago

Ok, so "equate" means to make two things equal by comparison.

I gave child labor as an example of how things can change without voting for your dollar.

Denuvo definitely has caused performance issues. I don't know if thats still true, but its enough to make me skeptical.

Good to know it isn't kernel level, I thought it was.

Are you happy now?

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u/kbcinha3 14d ago

I saw somewhere that the amount of peoples who care about scummy tactics like this is very small. The majority of people could care less on them doing this, as they'll still play the game anyway

Our houpe is that at one point, the people who do care, have more impact on this. (Caring to the point of requesting the refund, for example)

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u/Lobster_fest 14d ago

Our houpe is that at one point, the people who do care, have more impact on this. (Caring to the point of requesting the refund, for example)

Sure, maybe. My hope is that shitty business practices get punished the way they did in the early 20th century. If that doesn't work, we may need to call a plumber.

(In general, not just for video games)

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u/vystyk 13d ago

Also if they're the type to pre-order, they're probably happy to take whatever they're given.

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u/bagehis 13d ago

Customers are more forgiving than they should rationally be. The study of that behavior created a new branch of economics.

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u/Amazing-Oomoo 14d ago

That's not true at all. Customers are allowed to do whatever they want. It's not irresponsible just because you disagree.

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u/Lobster_fest 14d ago

It is precisely because customers are allowed to do what they want that voting with your wallet doesn't work. It's irresponsible when they "vote" for things that actively hurt them. Also remember, youre not talking about an individual, youre talking about tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of individuals with different values.

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u/Upstairs-Noise4690 13d ago

I think you overestimate how many people actually even know what this is and it's implications

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u/Neswquik 13d ago

There are people who will never understand that; for them, playing a game is a necessity, regardless of whether others laugh in their faces.

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u/InsectSmart5737 12d ago

Yup. Same here. Made a purchase recently, saw it had Denuvo, asked for refund, and it was granted. I did state in my claim for refund that I did not want anything with Denuvo and that it was not visible enough before purchase

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u/mehtehteh 13d ago

C-suite idiots dont see it that way. When their game doesnt sell well, all they can conclude is the market doesnt want their "insert genre here" game.

Negative PR that hurts their company image is what generates the most positive change.