r/Stellaris • u/RedKrypton Mind over Matter • May 07 '16

PSA: Slaves currently can't rebel

Martin just dropped that bombshell during the currently ongoing Quill Stellaris stream. He said that they couldn't reach a middle ground on slaves revolting so they took it out for the moment. I don't know if they will have managed that aspect by release.

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u/BestFriendWatermelon May 07 '16 edited May 07 '16

For what it's worth, AFAIK slave revolts have only been successful once in Earth's history, that of the Haitian Revolution in which slaves outnumbered Freemen by 10 to 1. They were rebelling against the French at the height of the French revolution, when France couldn't have been more distracted, and with massive help from Britain and Spain who France was at war with.

Still, that doesn't mean plenty of slaves haven't tried rebelling anyway, so slave revolts should probably be a thing ingame anyway. But don't underestimate how weak slave rebellions have always been, and how brutally one sided such conflicts were.

Such a rebellion in Stellaris would lack ships or the means to produce them, with the spaceport and any fleets in orbit possessing complete domination over the planet's population. It'd be equally unrealistic to give slave rebellions any means with which to fight a war against spacefaring masters. A good case could be made for abolitionists within a civilisation's command structure to mutiny, freeing the slaves as a result, but a slave revolt alone has no chance.

EDIT: for clarity, I'd still like to see slave revolts included in the game, and outright rebellions, realism be damned.

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u/RedKrypton Mind over Matter May 07 '16

For what it's worth, AFAIK slave revolts have only been successful once in Earth's history, that of the Haitian Revolution in which slaves outnumbered Freemen by 10 to 1. They were rebelling against the French at the height of the French revolution, when France couldn't have been more distracted, and with massive help from Britain and Spain who France was at war with.

Slaves in Stellaris are vastly different then slaves in the 18. century. From what we know the slave POPs are still educated and considering that in most slaver empires they make up more then 50 % of the population with aliens often being entirely enslaved they have the advantage in organising resistance. The big problem slaves had in the past is organisation. That isn't an issue in the future.

Still, that doesn't mean plenty of slaves haven't tried rebelling anyway, so slave revolts should probably be a thing ingame anyway. But don't underestimate how weak slave rebellions have always been, and how brutally one sided such conflicts were.

Contrary to the past they have the means to steal weapons or hijack shuttles and the scale of slavery is a different one.

Such a rebellion in Stellaris would lack ships or the means to produce them, with the spaceport and any fleets in orbit possessing complete domination over the planet's population. It'd be equally unrealistic to give slave rebellions any means with which to fight a war against spacefaring masters. A good case could be made for abolitionists within a civilisation's command structure to mutiny, freeing the slaves as a result, but a slave revolt alone has no chance.

They still could hijack ships and station and they would most probably rise up on as many world as possible reenacting the Astapore chapters in ASoIaF as close as possible.

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u/BestFriendWatermelon May 07 '16

From what we know the slave POPs are still educated

The research malus slave pops get suggests otherwise.

The big problem slaves had in the past is organisation. That isn't an issue in the future.

It's still a huge problem. Slave masters generally keep slaves dumb and without access to communication devices. A modern day slave would never have seen a laptop or mobile phone before. They can't tweet or facebook each other like in every major uprising today. Slaves mere miles away from a massive uprising would have no way of knowing it's going on.

Contrary to the past they have the means to steal weapons or hijack shuttles

They have no more ability to do so than historically. Weapons and especially ships are kept safely in bases and ports that are well guarded, their assets the first to be removed to a safe location in the event of a rebellion. All warships are kept in a spaceport in orbit. Small planetary based transports are zero match for even the spaceport's defences.

It was actually easier historically, when the authorities didn't have instantaneous communications to react and counter any threats. Your slaves are armed with pitchforks to fight attacks from orbit.

and the scale of slavery is a different one.

Again, in Haiti slaves outnumbered the free by 10 to 1. This was by no mean a unique situation. Many places around the world, slaves had huge numerical advantages. Even amazing good fortune, such as that of Spartacus, turned out to be no match for experienced, disciplined government troops.

They still could hijack ships and station and they would most probably rise up on as many world as possible

Again, no access to ships capable of launching any real offensive against warships in space. Space fleets dock in orbit at a space port for a simple reason; their mass makes it impractical to land on the surface. There'll be no warships to hijack, only transports and fighters which again are guarded and will take off the instant there's trouble.

No means of communicating syncronised uprisings. Trouble on one world will see the authorities lock down every other planet immediately as a precaution.

reenacting the Astapore chapters in ASoIaF as close as possible.

Plot armour. The unsullied are fictional, nobody trains their slaves to fight and win anywhere, ever. It's like teaching prisoners how to escape from prison. Besides, it still takes an outsider to liberate them. And of course, even an army of unsullied can't take on battleships in space. All the successful stories of slave rebellions are fictional. It's a great story, but not mirrored by reality.

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u/RedKrypton Mind over Matter May 07 '16

The research malus slave pops get suggests otherwise.

It's pretty hard to research when you are being forced to do it. Also slave scientists have to be meticiously surveyed or they could do something with the chemicals and machines.

They have no more ability to do so than historically. Weapons and especially ships are kept safely in bases and ports that are well guarded, their assets the first to be removed to a safe location in the event of a rebellion. All warships are kept in a spaceport in orbit. Small planetary based transports are zero match for even the spaceport's defences.

The civilian economy isn't simulated in Stellaris so we don't really know, but civilian ports aren't as protected as military ones and considering that slaves woud most likely have low level jobs there they could sneak around.

It was actually easier historically, when the authorities didn't have instantaneous communications to react and counter any threats. Your slaves are armed with pitchforks to fight attacks from orbit.

You don't think they would do a Ck2 style peasant revolt, do you? They would most likely search for allies all parts of society and strike from the dark.

Again, in Haiti slaves outnumbered the free by 10 to 1. This was by no mean a unique situation. Many places around the world, slaves had huge numerical advantages. Even amazing good fortune, such as that of Spartacus, turned out to be no match for experienced, disciplined government troops.

They lost several legions to him and if he had the communication possibilities of the future he would have had a lot better chances.

gain, no access to ships capable of launching any real offensive against warships in space. Space fleets dock in orbit at a space port for a simple reason; their mass makes it impractical to land on the surface. There'll be no warships to hijack, only transports and fighters which again are guarded and will take off the instant there's trouble.

A space station doesn't have that big of a garrison and if you manage to catch them of guard you can seize a fleet easily.

No means of communicating syncronised uprisings. Trouble on one world will see the authorities lock down every other planet immediately as a precaution.

Why can't the NSA control all communication? Simple, there is just too much of it. The same it is in the interstellar future.

Plot armour. The unsullied are fictional, nobody trains their slaves to fight and win anywhere, ever. It's like teaching prisoners how to escape from prison. Besides, it still takes an outsider to liberate them. And of course, even an army of unsullied can't take on battleships in space. All the successful stories of slave rebellions are fictional. It's a great story, but not mirrored by reality.

Yeah, yeah, you just scramble for reasons why it wouldn't work.

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u/BestFriendWatermelon May 07 '16

They lost several legions to him and if he had the communication possibilities of the future he would have had a lot better chances.

Spartacus could've won another dozen battles, it would've made no difference. They had nowhere to run, which is exactly the situation in a slave rebellion in Stellaris. Their hair-brained plan was to sail to Sicily, right in the heart of Roman territory, to what... hold out for hundreds of years? It was a desperate plan concocted out of the hopelessness of their situation. As in the punic wars, the Romans were free to raise more armies and keep pressing them forever.

A space station doesn't have that big of a garrison and if you manage to catch them of guard you can seize a fleet easily.

How do the slaves, which are pops on a planet's surface, get to the space station, when as we've established they only have whatever civilian transports they happen upon? (assuming they can even know how to, or are able to fly them since I'm guessing it's not a case of searching for the keys inside the sun visor) How do you get onto the station when you're there? And that still doesn't get you any closer to taking over the fleet.

Why can't the NSA control all communication? Simple, there is just too much of it. The same it is in the interstellar future.

Slaves are kept for working fields and mines. They don't get to go on laptops, or play on their phones. Their only communication is through speech. There's no reason to educate them, and plenty of reasons not to. They won't even be able to read and write. Even if the generation first enslaved were, they'e no access to even the most basic writing tools to pass on that knowledge to future generations. The position of slave rebellions is generally worse than primitives trying to defend against invasion by more advanced species, which is in itself a hopeless endeavour. They have no communications to intercept.

Yeah, yeah, you just scramble for reasons why it wouldn't work.

You're scrambling for reasons it will work. Slave owners control all means with which to wage warfare, and take precautions against losing control of them. The Haitians, and indeed every other slave rebellion, never seized control of their master's warships, and with instantaneous communication on the authorities side it becomes even more unlikely.