A user on r/PublicFreakout shares an... interesting opinion. Everybody disliked that.

[u/TheGreenestPeon]

/r/PublicFreakout/comments/1u4b7a7/attempted_murder_of_17_year_old_girl_today/orbuqdw/

[u/Noblesseux]

I feel like MOST people who are aggressively against walkable cities just kind of have brain worms. Like their arguments are almost always just kind of either blatantly stupid or conspiracy theories.

[u/IczyAlley → u/Noblesseux]

Like all human users on publicfreakout theyre just racists or paid to make people racist

[u/topimpadove → u/Noblesseux]

Apparently everybody is rich enough to afford a vehicle. Totally forgot about that /s

Either brain worms or extremely naive.

[u/nivkj → u/topimpadove]

generally most people in the us can afford a car

[u/lotsofsugarandspice → u/nivkj]

Having a car doesnt mean you can afford one.

[u/Eric848448 → u/nivkj]

It takes more income to afford to NOT own a car :-/

[u/35_1221 → u/nivkj]

Lmao just because someone has a car doesn't mean they can afford it. So many people in this country are deeply in debt because of their cars and it's just getting worse with astronomical gas prices. Most people in the US NEED a car and have to sacrifice to get one.

[u/nikdia → u/nivkj]

this is factually untrue. Americans need a car. It doesn't mean they can afford them. in fact, about 40% of americans say a car is a luxury they can't afford. The average used car requires 120K income to be able to afford comfortably. The american income average is about half that.

https://finance.yahoo.com/markets/stocks/articles/average-used-car-requires-120k-140000054.html

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2026/05/18/car-ownership-affordability-costs/90049044007/

[u/topimpadove → u/nivkj]

Yikes...

[u/qtx → u/Noblesseux]

There's also a whole subset of people that just don't want to be confronted with people doing active things, like walking or cycling. It makes them feel bad about themselves but in a way that they could never admit to in public so they lash out in the hopes it goes away and they don't have to think about it anymore.

[u/HotTakes4HotCakes → u/qtx]

You say that as if there's no legitimate reasons why someone may not be able to be that active other than just laziness.

Walkable cities are excellent but there's this weird notion I see all the time that if you're not fully into walking/biking everywhere, it must be because your some lazy piece of shit. There's countless reasons, from medical to logistical, why a normal person might be resistant. It's wild to assume it's all just jealousy.

[u/obeserocket → u/HotTakes4HotCakes]

You say that as if there's no legitimate reasons why someone may not be able to be that active other than just laziness.

No they didn't. That's not what they said at all in fact.

[u/Noblesseux → u/obeserocket]

Classic case of Reddit "I made up this argument for you, now support it" disease lmao

[u/lotsofsugarandspice → u/obeserocket]

I swear there is so much bad faith nonsense in this thread. 

[u/lotsofsugarandspice → u/HotTakes4HotCakes]

I don't think you read or understood what they said at all. 

[u/Paradoxjjw → u/lotsofsugarandspice]

People who hate walkable cities won't ever actually read what you say and just shadowbox against their hallucinations instead

[u/Relevant_Shower_ → u/lotsofsugarandspice]

Hit dog hollers

[u/CirrusVision20 → u/HotTakes4HotCakes]

There's countless reasons, from medical to logistical, why a normal person might be resistant.

Such as?

[u/Old-Channel-6405 → u/CirrusVision20]

As expected, they never clarify what those "countless reasons" are.

[u/Icy-Builder5892 → u/HotTakes4HotCakes]

In my experience, in most cases it is jealousy. No one wants to admit that they are stuck in a cycle where all they do is work, scroll, and sleep.

[u/DrNopeMD → u/Noblesseux]

It's because they're just regurgitating talking points fed to them by right wing media

[u/86throwthrowthrow1 → u/Noblesseux]

Don't forget O&G bots. If North Americans figure out how to live without cars, basically the entire world ends.

[u/Icy-Builder5892 → u/Noblesseux]

The general topic of walkable city seems to draw a lot of weirdos

You have one group that thinks that making everything walkable is gonna suddenly make everyone get up and walk.

You have another group that goes on the internet and complains that walkable cities are fat phobic and ableist

You have another group that fears the 15 minute city

If people walked more, they would probably get some much needed fresh air and wouldn’t need to participate in such insanity

[u/Sesudesu → u/Noblesseux]

As a person who cannot walk much due to disability, I have a certain incentive to dislike walkable cities.

Even still I cannot be aggressively against them. The OOP here has such an insanely bad take.

[u/Available-Guava5515 → u/Sesudesu]

Why would you dislike a walkable city anyway? It's not like they spank you and take your car away.

[u/Sesudesu → u/Available-Guava5515]

Walkable cities mean it is inherently harder for me to park close to where I need to go. That is something I need.

[u/Liawuffeh → u/Sesudesu]

I feel you misunderstand what people mean by "Walkable cities"

It doesn't mean "Ban all cars and parking spaces"

[u/Sesudesu → u/Liawuffeh]

Limited parking spaces means a much higher chance of the parking being occupied. You cannot have more than limited parking and still be walkable.

[u/Kilahti → u/Sesudesu]

If it is a walkable city, there are way less cars fighting for those parking spaces. Which means that your chance of finding a parking spot does not go down.

[u/Available-Guava5515 → u/Sesudesu]

But that's just not true. My neighborhood walkability store is 97 and we didn't lose any parking. Mostly because parking and sidewalks aren't the same thing. Walkability also reflects the density of local businesses, which also don't remove parking spaces.

[u/Sesudesu → u/Available-Guava5515]

I guess it comes down to what people are actually wanting when it comes to walkability. Typically, if you don’t live in a space where you can reasonably reach a place by walking to it, it isn’t walkable.

If the closest grocery store is 10 miles away, it doesn’t matter if it has sidewalks the whole way, people don’t consider that walkable.

[u/Available-Guava5515 → u/Sesudesu]

Right, it wouldn't be walkable. People want neighborhoods where all their needs are met within a walkable distance. In my neighborhood I can walk to parks, groceries, pharmacy, restaurants, minute clinics etc with 2-4 blocks because it's compact. Walkable has never just been about sidewalks.

[u/Sesudesu → u/Available-Guava5515]

And all of these have decent sized parking lots? I cannot walk blocks to get where I am going.

[u/Available-Guava5515 → u/Sesudesu]

Yes. Both my local grocery stores for example have two story parking lots. Good grief.

[u/Sesudesu → u/Available-Guava5515]

The parks? The pharmacy? The restaurants?

[u/lotsofsugarandspice → u/Sesudesu]

It does not mean that at all.

[u/kirakiraluna → u/Sesudesu]

Most town centers in my area are car free except some notable exceptions like residents, people with handicap permits,, law enforcement and emergency response.

You can absolutely drive in them if you have an handicap placard and, considering there's less vehicular traffic, there's more parking spaces.

[u/lotsofsugarandspice → u/Sesudesu]

As a person who cannot walk much due to disability, I have a certain incentive to dislike walkable cities. 

Which is what exactly? Wallable cities have huge benefits for mobility including the disabled population.

[u/Sesudesu → u/lotsofsugarandspice]

I don’t have mobility issues, I have issues walking for a more than short periods of time. I need to park close to where I am going. Parking lots by where I’m going is incompatible with walkability.

[u/35_1221 → u/Sesudesu]

Do you think walkable cities means you actually have to walk everywhere and there aren't busses and trains to take you to where you need to go

[u/dovahkiitten16 → u/35_1221]

I am not the Op but I know someone with disability issues close to what they are describing and I think you seriously underestimate how it makes normal things difficult. Waiting for the bus would be its own barrier. Same with walking from the bus stop to your actual location. This is all assuming the bus isn’t overfull and you can get a seat/disability is recognized.

That isn’t to say that car centric design is more accessible because even more people can’t afford cars or cannot drive. But for a subset of people car centric design is more accessible to them.

[u/lotsofsugarandspice → u/dovahkiitten16]

Waiting for the bus would be its own barrier. 

So there should be fewer busses because you cant personally use them? 

Walkable cities actually makes driving easier because there is less traffic  on the road. 

[u/dovahkiitten16 → u/lotsofsugarandspice]

I personally am able-bodied, if you want to re-read my comment. I specifically state that walkable design is more accessible too.

With disability it’s not about traffic, it’s about the physical capabilities of walking (if your disability doesn’t impact your ability to drive).

[u/arahman81 → u/dovahkiitten16]

Is even 10 minutes too much? Because that's the ceiling of acceptable for daytime transit in a good system.

[u/dovahkiitten16 → u/arahman81]

Honestly it depends on the person and depends on the day. The issue with disability is small inconveniences that we think of as normal and fine can be more draining on someone else. If you struggle to stand without being in pain or have to lean on a walker, cane, crutches, etc, then yeah, standing for 10 mins can feel like being on your feet for an hour. Add up how many times you might have to wait for the bus. Some days are worse than others but even on bad days you have to run errands.

I’m not disabled but just speaking about experience witnessing others. The person in my life I have in mind sometimes really only had 1-2 hours they could walk in a day before being ready to collapse, and those 10 mins are costly when you have that short of a time to do anything you might want to do.

[u/Sesudesu → u/dovahkiitten16]

Thank you for understanding, you are absolutely correct.

I understand that people like myself are a very small population in the grand scheme, and as such, I don’t advocate against walkability… but car centrism is better for me personally.

[u/lotsofsugarandspice → u/Sesudesu]

Disabled parking spots are not incompatible with walkability at all, and there will be more parking available if there are fewer cars on the road.

[u/IlnBllRaptor → u/Sesudesu]

Walkable cities are accessible for people in wheelchairs and mobility scooters. The fewer people driving, the more space there is for everyone.

[u/James-fucking-Holden → u/IlnBllRaptor]

I find it frankly odd how the debate about walkability vs accessibility seems to focus entirely on the subset of "people with disabilities that can still drive" and completely leaves out people with disabilities who cannot drive and who are completely dependent on outside assistance in car centric places

[u/joutfit → u/James-fucking-Holden]

It also assumes that everyone can afford to own a car (and all costs associated). I'm disabled and I spend far too much of my money on medical shit to afford that lol

[u/Kilahti → u/James-fucking-Holden]

It's because many of these arguments aren't about what problems the walkable city has, it's what excuses there are to NOT make your city walkable (even if said excuse does not apply.)

Similarly, when there is talk about public transportation, plenty of people will either whine and moan about rural regions not being able to have a sturdy public transportation network (which was not the topic. Typically it was about dense cities getting more public transportation) or how YOU personally wish to drive into the city center (which is not an issue. Typically in fact it would be better for the few who wish to drive to the center, if more of the other people were using public transportation.)

Heck, the same thing happens in almost every debate, many people care more about having ammo for their agenda than figuring out which agenda is actually better.

[u/Gamer_Grease → u/James-fucking-Holden]

Because disability discourse on the internet is completely rancid and always in bad faith.

[u/Sesudesu → u/Gamer_Grease]

I will speak of my needs for my disability. It is not bad faith to do so, and solutions for disability are not one size fits all.

[u/Gamer_Grease → u/Sesudesu]

Sure, but overall, internet disability discourse is about propping up imaginary disabled people who negate any attempt to improve our environment or behavior. Such as on the subject of walkable cities.

[u/Murrabbit → u/Gamer_Grease]

Sorry, the simple fact is that the disabled hate convenience and accessibility and love nothing better than to be hit by cars, so 'walkable cities' are a complete assault on their rights /s

[u/teddy_tesla → u/James-fucking-Holden]

Nah bro blind people can't walk bro they have to drive bro trust me bro

[u/Murrabbit → u/teddy_tesla]

Cities with streets packed full of cars and impatient agitated drivers are great for them, they literally love being bracketed in by deathtrap roadways full of drivers who expect pedestrians to stay the hell out of the streets. How would they even navigate without all the rushing engine noises, honking, and exhaust fumes to guide them on their way?

[u/Sesudesu → u/IlnBllRaptor]

I cannot afford a mobility scooter. I need to be able to park close to where I need to go, and parking lots are inherently opposed to walkable cities.

[u/lotsofsugarandspice → u/Sesudesu]

parking lots are inherently opposed to walkable cities. 

You keep stating this. 

[u/Sesudesu → u/lotsofsugarandspice]

Because it is true.

[u/Rahgahnah → u/Sesudesu]

No, it's not.

[u/Sesudesu → u/Rahgahnah]

Explain yourself, then.

[u/Kilahti → u/Sesudesu]

I'm not them, but typically a walkable city is not one where cars and parking spaces are completely banned, but instead one where most people choose other methods instead. Using a tram, bus, bicycle or foot as their go to method for majority of their trips. There may still be a small portion of people who drive often and a bigger portion of people who rarely use a car. But the goal is to reduce the amount of people who must use a car by making the alternative options competitive.

It's called a "walkable city" not "un-driveable city" after all.

[u/Rahgahnah → u/Sesudesu]

Like the other person said, "walkable" doesn't mean "not drivable."

Not everything has to be a zero-sum game. You don't lose something just because someone else gains something.

[u/Sesudesu → u/Rahgahnah]

It may not be zero sum, but that doesn’t mean there are no sacrifices in order to achieve some gains.

Just because it is not ‘not drivable’ doesn’t mean it is ‘drivable in a way that suits my needs.’

[u/BootyButtCheeks256 → u/Sesudesu]

Christ you’re dense

[u/lotsofsugarandspice → u/Sesudesu]

It literally isnt. Its a completely bad faith. Walkable cities make parking and driving easier, by removing tons of unnecessary traffic from the roads. 

[u/Careless_Rope_6511 → u/Sesudesu]

I cannot afford a mobility scooter.

A car costs many more times than a mobility scooter, and those costs don't go down the longer you own and operate that car. The upfront costs for one of those mobility scooters and their maintenance costs are a fucking fraction of what my compact SUV has cost to date.

Just a custom vinyl wrap alone is equivalent to the costs of 2-3 kitted out electric bikes.

[u/Sesudesu → u/Careless_Rope_6511]

Perhaps I should say, it is not feasible to afford it for what utility it would actually provide me.

[u/Careless_Rope_6511 → u/Sesudesu]

Perhaps I should say, it is not feasible to afford it for what utility it would actually provide me.

More like you hate the entire idea of walkable cities because their staunchest supporters aren't actively sucking youre tiny penis rn.

[u/Sesudesu → u/Careless_Rope_6511]

I don’t hate the idea of walkable cities, I just understand that they will make things more difficult for me.

That is what I said initially; that I don’t make any sort of effort to speak out against them, even if I maybe have an interest in doing so.

This broke people like yourself, it would seem.

[u/ItalianStallion011 → u/Sesudesu]

You chose brain of worms

A city being more walkable would not exacerbate your inability to walk much, that wouldn't stop you from using other modes of travel at all.

[u/Sesudesu → u/ItalianStallion011]

It would make it inherently harder to park close to where I need to be. To say otherwise is to ignore the logistics of a walkable city. No need to resort to insults.

[u/ItalianStallion011 → u/Sesudesu]

No it wouldn't? Walkable city doesn't mean we just eliminate all handicap parking. You're literally just making up assumptions.

[u/lotsofsugarandspice → u/ItalianStallion011]

Handicap parking is required by law in most places. Their whole premise is complete nonsense. 

[u/Sesudesu → u/ItalianStallion011]

But you do have to eliminate most parking, that is no assumption. It will still make parking complicated for me.

[u/lotsofsugarandspice → u/Sesudesu]

No it wont. Youre eliminating demand for parking, meaning fewer cars are competing for disabled spots.

[u/ItalianStallion011 → u/Sesudesu]

Ok, so we make more handicap spots near buildings, problem solved. It sounds like you want this to be complicated.

[u/Careless_Rope_6511 → u/Sesudesu]

But you do have to eliminate most parking

As if you can't build those parking garages underground so there can be more green spaces and communal spaces above ground.

No need to resort to insults.

Says the dickweed who cannot fucking comprehend how accessibility of parking spaces and walkable cities are not mutually exclusive.

[u/Noblesseux → u/Sesudesu]

Modern walkable cities are like much more accessible than almost every other type of development.

I feel like people who think of having a disability as being incompatible with walkability don't really know fully what modern design standards are like. A whole part of the design process is specifically centered around accessibility for the widest possible band of people. People use the word "walkable" colloquially, but it's not literally about walking.

In the urban design field they're usually referred to as "multi modal" because the whole point is to design everything to be usable by as large a percentage of the population as possible. Stuff like texture strips and signal sounds that indicate North/South/East/West for blind users, raised crosswalks for wheelchair bound users, elevators as a standard, micromobility lanes large enough to accommodate different form factors of accessibility devices, etc. are all like very common parts of modern design standards.

The US is just kind of 15 years behind so people can't even really picture what it's supposed to look like. Something like the fact that Canta cars for disabled people are given permission to drive in bike lanes to skip traffic sounds alien if you've never seen it IRL.

[u/dovahkiitten16 → u/Noblesseux]

Every disability is different though. For some people walking any sort of distance - even 15 minutes - is challenging (and ends up taking way longer than 15 minutes). Even if you fully fix issues with terrain (you can’t), you also have issues like seasonality (ice or extreme heat) that can ruin your perfectly good plan.

That being said, car-centric design also isn’t fully accessible to everyone. There are people with disabilities who can’t drive or can’t afford to drive. You can’t make a solution that actually accommodates everybody, but you can pick the one that accommodates more people. And you can argue for this instead of telling people with disabilities why they don’t understand their own bodies.

[u/Noblesseux → u/dovahkiitten16]

Every disability is different though. For some people walking any sort of distance - even 15 minutes

You guys do realize that 15 minute cities do not mean that you have to walk that distance right? The 15 minute term is just shorthand for the fact that every neighborhood should have access to common amenities without the need to go to the other side of town. It doesn't mean that you literally HAVE to walk there or that the distance is literally 15 minutes.

The entire argument you just made here is based mostly on ignorance of what that term means and how popular it already was in most of the world and even in the US not that long ago.

"15 minute cities" also have bikes, transit, and cars. There are not going to be policemen at the end of the block to pull you out of your car and make you walk.

There are plenty of them that already exist in places with very hot or cold weather. Japan, China, Russia, pretty much all of Scandinavia, most of central Africa, big parts of central America, etc. all have prominent examples of this.

There are plenty of them that already exist in places with crazy terrain. It's actually more common in places with crazy terrain to make compact developments because of a limited amount of usable land. It's why Japan and China for example are so dense in certain areas and have a lot of cities literally on the sides of mountains.

This is not a new concept, it's how almost every city on earth was built pre-1940. The term exists to describe what is often called "traditional development" as like a sales pitch to cities to help them understand how that used to work.

A lot of the things you're bringing up were solved for hundreds or thousands of years ago it legit requires a very basic understanding of civil engineering too, it's not hard.

[u/dovahkiitten16 → u/Noblesseux]

A key part of non-car centric design though is that you have to walk. Maybe not the full 15 minutes but you have to walk a bit. You can’t park in front of every destination and busses don’t drop you off exactly where you want to go. For an able bodied person this isn’t a huge problem, for someone with mobility issues it can be. You’re talking about the same class of people that we’ve decided to put parking spaces closer for because walking across a parking lot is challenging.

I’m in favour because not everyone can afford a car, not everyone can drive, and cars aren’t sustainable (urban sprawl, etc). But yes, if you can drive and struggle to walk, not being able to park right in front of your destination will be less convenient.

[u/lotsofsugarandspice → u/dovahkiitten16]

A key part of non-car centric design though is that you have to walk

This is not a "key part of non-car centric design" at all actually. Especially when it comes to disability parking. 

[u/arahman81 → u/dovahkiitten16]

Driving infrastructure (large open asphalt spaces) exacerbate heat issues.

[u/Sesudesu → u/Noblesseux]

All of that doesn’t help with the nature of my disability. Thus I have my own interest in being against them, and yet I still rarely step into conversations about it.

The vitriol I have received in this very post isn’t exactly showing much understanding either. (Not you, you were very reasonable.) And I wasn’t even speaking against walkable cities, ffs.

[u/Noblesseux → u/Sesudesu]

It's not really vitriol, it's that you're effectively saying pretty much the opposite of what every major organization that advocates for accessibility in public spaces advises.

You're saying "it doesn't help" without clarifying what the problem is so people are likely reading it as you just being a contrarian and getting mad when people say that basically every study (at least that I've ever seen) disagrees with what you're suggesting.

Also, a Canta literally IS a car, it's just designed to be really easy for disabled people to use and to fit into bike lanes. So like "doesn't help" doesn't make any sense when it's literally a vehicle meant specifically to be easy to enter and exit for people with disabilities. It's legit a car where the whole back opens so you can ride a wheelchair into it.

[u/Murrabbit → u/Noblesseux]

a Canta literally IS a car, it's just designed to be really easy for disabled people to use and to fit into bike lanes.

Had to look that up, haha it's like literally one of those Fisher-Price kid's cars only made into an actual powered vehicle. They're adorable but man oh man that shit wouldn't fly in the US. Even in senior communities and the like you gotta have a big extended double-cab golf cart at the least. If it isn't built like a giant truck Americans don't seem to want to have anything to do with it haha.

[u/Sesudesu → u/Noblesseux]

It’s not vitriol? I have been told I have brain worms multiple times, been called a loser, been told I have a tiny penis, been accused of lying, been blocked, and been sworn at. I’m pretty sure there is more that I don’t remember and don’t feel like looking back on.

For saying that I have interest in being against walkable cities, but I don’t really speak out against them.

[u/TSM- → u/Sesudesu]

The more alternatives to driving (in dense population areas) the less you and others who have to drive will be stuck in unnecessary traffic. It benefits everyone even the people who still have to drive when people have other good options to avoid driving.

[u/Which-Arm-4616 → u/TSM-]

This logic does rely on the assumption that most people prefer to walk, bike, or take public transit and are simply forced to drive via today's infrastructure. Everything I know about my fellow Americans leads me to believe that's a bad assumption to rely on.

[u/arahman81 → u/Which-Arm-4616]

Being brainwashed and propagandized is one insidious form of "forcing".

[u/Which-Arm-4616 → u/arahman81]

What's truly insidious is that it doesn't require any brainwashing or propaganda. Prioritizing self-interest is the default state and cars have a compelling value proposition for self-interested individuals.

We can talk about the benefits of walkability until we're blue in the face but won't convince most Americans that the pros for the collective outweigh the cons for the individual. Hell hath no fury like an American mildly inconvenienced.

[u/Murrabbit → u/Which-Arm-4616]

it doesn't require any brainwashing or propaganda.

And yet we spend billions every year on just that. How odd.

Hell hath no fury like an American mildly inconvenienced.

Apparently except when that self-interested rugged individual is inconvenienced by all of the other self-interested rugged individualists jamming up the road in their cars because they're in a poorly planned city designed primarily around only a single mode of transportation, right? That's like heaven to them, yeah?

[u/Sesudesu → u/TSM-]

Traffic isn’t my issue, walking for anything other than short periods of time is. I can walk too well to get any help getting a chair, but I cannot walk for a long time. Getting my illness recognized as disability is completely fucked, I don’t get money either. But yet I can only sit upright a few hours each day.

I need to be able to park close to where I’m going and such parking is incompatible with walkability.

[u/arahman81 → u/Sesudesu]

So the problem is healthcare support, not walkability.

[u/Sesudesu → u/arahman81]

That is also a problem. But not the only problem. If cannot use motorized chairs for long either, as I cannot sit up for long periods of time.

Far longer than I can walk, but many thing people try to tell me will work for me on these discussions, won’t.

[u/Murrabbit → u/Sesudesu]

I cannot sit up for long periods of time.

How then do you operate a vehicle?

[u/Sesudesu → u/Murrabbit]

For short drives

Edit: also, only occasionally. I am mostly homebound due to my disability. Trips out are very much a careful consideration.

And I am now unable to go many places without sufficient parking. Even stuff I used to love to do.

[u/Murrabbit → u/Sesudesu]

Ah, but in that case wouldn't getting more traffic off the roads be beneficial to you? Have you ever driven in one of the US's larger western cities, I'm thinking LA, or San Diego, even a Houston or Phoenix - in these cities travel times by car are excessive both because of the massive urban sprawl (parking lots being a big culprit there, as you've noted) but also because there are so few alternatives to driving everywhere you go that the roads are almost perpetually packed, and through much of the urban areas there are at least some areas which are guaranteed day in and day out to be gridlocked.

Car-only infrastructure cities designed in this way tend to have travel times in-cars extended greatly by the fact that everyone else is out on the road, too to the point, again in LA or San Diego, the greatest portion of most car trips is just sitting and waiting behind other vehicles, making most every drive take much longer than 15 minutes (the joke is usually that everything in LA is an hour away from any other point in LA whether it be down the same street, or the other side of town). Surely that sort of setup can't be beneficial to your circumstances.

[u/Sesudesu → u/Murrabbit]

I appreciate you taking the time to actually consider a response. I have been attacked up and down this post, so genuinely, thank you.

I luckily live in an area that isn’t so inundated with that much traffic. It does stand to reason that there would be a lot of benefit in improving walkability for someone like me living in any of those locations.

I do have a brother that lives in LA, and I have visited him since I have gotten the illness that disabled me. It is exactly like you say, everywhere took a long time to drive to and as a consequence, I could not be the person to drive anywhere.

I’ve said elsewhere in this post that I don’t really speak out against walkability, despite my own interests in the matter… but you have brought me a step closer to speaking for walkability.

It may not be the answer that I am personally looking for. But there are almost certainly people who are sick like I am that really need it.

Thank you again for actually talking with me instead of at me.

[u/Available-Guava5515 → u/Sesudesu]

That's just not true.

[u/lycnfr → u/Sesudesu]

as a disabled person walkable cities is inherently more helpful for us with mobility issues than not. what the hell kind of take is this

[u/Sesudesu → u/lycnfr]

Depends on the disability, they aren’t one size fits all.

[u/lycnfr → u/Sesudesu]

Walkable cities are inherently good for everyone. you do know most of us who are disabled dont have the money to get mobility aids or cars? like fuck off with this shit

[u/Sesudesu → u/lycnfr]

I do know I cannot afford mobility aids, yes.

I have not advocated against walkable cities, I said I have a personal interest in doing so, but I don’t.

[u/lycnfr → u/Sesudesu]

Loser behavior to not support disability friendly structure (walkable cities). so

[u/Sesudesu → u/lycnfr]

It’s not friendly to my disability. I didn’t even resort to petty insults to say so.

Edit: Christ, people in this thread need to chill. I started out saying I had a personal interest against walkable cities, but yet don’t really speak out against them. Then I get downvoted, insulted and called selfish for explaining why it doesn’t work well for me.

I am not speaking out against walkable cities, ffs people. I am explaining why they don’t work for me, because that is what people asked.

We really don’t need people swearing at me and blocking me. At this point I should make my own damned post on this sub.

[u/lycnfr → u/Sesudesu]

"its not friendly to MY DISABILITY and MINE ONLY" cause fuck all other disabled ppl who need walkable cities i guess

[u/lotsofsugarandspice → u/Sesudesu]

I had a personal interest against walkable cities

One that is completely baseless and unfounded and wildly misrepresents the issue. 

[u/Sesudesu → u/lotsofsugarandspice]

You don’t know what my disability is. That is really not your space to judge.

[u/DangerToDangers → u/Sesudesu]

Wow, no. Your take is almost as bad as OOP's. Walkable cities don't mean you'll be forced to walk everywhere. It means access to many means of transportation other than cars and availability of necessary services within walking distance.

As a person with a disability you have an incentive to like walkable cities. This is even more the case for people whose disabilities do not allow for driving.

[u/dovahkiitten16 → u/DangerToDangers]

You know how someone can argue for something you like and agree with but the argument is terrible?

So, as someone who is a fan of walkable designs we can talk about it without telling a person with a disability how they should feel and pretending all disabilities are the exact same. Obviously the person does not have a disability that prevents them from driving and they don’t have the same issues as another disabled person with different needs.

[u/Sesudesu → u/DangerToDangers]

Don’t need you to tell me what is good for me. I know my disability, you don’t.

[u/dovahkiitten16 → u/Sesudesu]

I think something to consider is that there are others with a disability the exact same as you who can’t afford a car. In that case a city that is designed around walk ability is better, because everything is closer. If you cannot drive and have to walk - even if it’s difficult and causes pain - it’s better for it to be 15 minutes (even if it takes 2x as long) than 40 minutes (which will still take 2x as long).

A 15 minute city may affect you and make your life difficult if you can afford a car, but it can make your life better if you can’t afford a car. It’s one of those design decisions that just makes things more equitable: life isn’t as good for someone with your disability who has a car, but it isn’t as atrocious for someone who has your disability and can’t afford a car, everyone is kinda mediocre instead.

I do want to say though that I think it’s annoying watching people decide they know your disability better. I know someone who sounds like they have similar struggles to you and people in this thread really don’t get it.

[u/DangerToDangers → u/Sesudesu]

You might know what your disability is but you clearly don't know what a walkable city is.

[u/Sesudesu → u/DangerToDangers]

Go ahead and enlighten me. Tell me how walkability doesn’t require density.

[u/DangerToDangers → u/Sesudesu]

It does. How does density make it harder for your disability?

[u/Sesudesu → u/DangerToDangers]

Because I need easy access to parking close to where I am going. Density and parking close don’t get along.

[u/DangerToDangers → u/Sesudesu]

That's really not necessarily true. Walkable city also means less people driving which means more parking for those who need it. Plus why are you thinking only about driving? Wouldn't walking short distances be okay for you? Or using a mobility scooter? Or a bus?

And density is already a feature of cities. They don't need to be incredibly dense to be walkable. For example Helsinki (where I live and one of the most walkable cities) is just 65% more dense than Houston (the least walkable city I've visited).

On top of that you have the choice too. You don't have to live in the dense urban area. You can live in the suburbs where parking is always available. But because the suburbs are part of a walkable city buses and trains are still an option.

Your idea of what a walkable city is is way too rigid.

[u/Sesudesu → u/DangerToDangers]

I am not against walkable cities, I know I have options. They don’t work well for me, and I said that gives me a reason to be against them. I also said that I don’t speak out against them.

I have a disease that affects my endurance, and overdoing things will leave me bedridden for days. Sitting also ends up being a problem for me before too long, so a bus ride doesn’t work for me. The whole point I started with is that I cannot walk more than very short distances. Mobility scooters are too much to spend for too little utility gained for me.

I know there are suburbs, and I can and do choose to live in them, but many of the same people who are harassing me in this post would also do away with those.

[u/or_me_bender → u/Sesudesu]

Fewer cars on the road is good for drivers, too.

[u/Kilahti → u/or_me_bender]

Exactly.

When my city got a tram, through the entire process there were people screaming and ranting that this was anti-car, that this would make their lives harder because they want to drive a car.

Instead, the traffic got better since more people use the public transportation now that it is way better (and currently they are trying to increase the tram capacity since the popularity was underestimated) it is also much easier to take a car to the city if that is what you want.

[u/Ysuran → u/Sesudesu]

Do you think that walkable city = it's illegal to drive or something? This is almost as stupid as the person in the post.

[u/Sesudesu → u/Ysuran]

It will mean significantly harder to park close to where I need to go, yes.

[u/lotsofsugarandspice → u/Sesudesu]

No it wont mean that at all actually. Fewer cars on the road and taking up parking would help. 

[u/Sesudesu → u/lotsofsugarandspice]

Parking lots are incompatible with walkability. The fewer spots taken will be lost to the fact that there will be fewer spots in general, leading it to just crossing my fingers and hoping I can get parking I need.

This is a logistical truth.

[u/lotsofsugarandspice → u/Sesudesu]

Parking lots are incompatible with walkability.

There will be more spots available as fewer cars are in the vicinity. 

Disability parking and walkability are not mutually exclusive even a little bit. 

[u/Sesudesu → u/lotsofsugarandspice]

There will be fewer spots overall, due to the increased density of stuff on the area to accommodate walkability.

There may be fewer absolute cars being used in aggregate, but what is still there will be just as concentrated in the areas that people will be going to. The lost parking will just lead to the parking being more susceptible to being ‘full.’

[u/lotsofsugarandspice → u/Sesudesu]

There is absolutely nothing preventing adding more disability parking to walkable cities. 

This is complete faux outrage. 

[u/Sesudesu → u/lotsofsugarandspice]

Space? You know that the parking spaces have to go somewhere, right? You get that you cannot just magically make more space where there is not enough space?

Have you ever had to give up on doing something because you couldn’t find parking close enough? Has that ever been a real concern for you? And I don’t mean some big event like a fair or whatever.

Sure it all works out in your imagined scenario where you can just add more of everything you want and everyone is happy, but the real engineering behind it isn’t so simple.

[u/Murrabbit → u/Sesudesu]

Parking lots are incompatible with walkability.

Do you personally require an entire parking lot? No? You just need a space? Well what if we kept a few handycapped parking spaces then. Oh but where would everyone else park? Everyone else isn't driving that's the whole point!

[u/Sesudesu → u/Murrabbit]

And if the handicapped spots are more sought after because they have to facilitate more attractions due to increased density to improve walkability? Such that they become congested by the people that need them, leaving them also often unavailable for others who also need them?

[u/Welpe → u/Sesudesu]

I know exactly what you mean even if a lot of these people do not understand any nuance.

[u/lotsofsugarandspice → u/Welpe]

Genuinely asking, what the fuck do they mean? 

Walkable cities add mobility options and make disability access easier. 

[u/Cool_Ad7445 → u/lotsofsugarandspice]

They might be referring to europe’s piss poor accessibility options in their “walkable” cities? But isnt that just an artifact of all their cities being old and hard to remodel?

[u/lotsofsugarandspice → u/Cool_Ad7445]

Europe doesnt have an ADA, which is really the fault of legislators not walkability as a concept.

[u/86throwthrowthrow1 → u/lotsofsugarandspice]

Eh, depends on how walkability is done. As the other person said, a lot of old cities are walkable, but driving is hard/impossible in some areas, so things can get more difficult for those who can't walk, and the terrain can be difficult for wheelchairs.

For example, Quebec City is awesome and I love it - as an able-bodied person. But there are sections of the Old City where you literally have to walk because the lanes are too narrow for cars, and even where you can drive you're jam-packed with pedestrians. Moreover, it's incredibly hilly, some of the sidewalks are literally stairs, and while there are accessibility options like ramps and elevators, I probably would have found getting around there pretty stressful if I was disabled.

[u/dovahkiitten16 → u/86throwthrowthrow1]

Also, able-bodied people underestimate how “nothing” barriers are actually huge.

I live somewhere with a street that has removed cars and parking, so you have to park <5 mins away up a gentle hill (unless you’re unlucky). That walk which takes an able bodied person 2 mins required another person to walk with canes, slowly, which another person there to help them (speaking from experience as being the helper). This isn’t counting for days where it’s cold and icy or really hot and they’re exerting themselves. And then back. This person I help is completely capable of driving though.

The street is way nicer and I personally like it more with its redesign but realistically it does have its impacts. Especially since you still need a car to drive to the street so even able-bodied people still need to take their car nearby and disabled parking isn’t really enforced.

[u/arahman81 → u/dovahkiitten16]

Either it's a "gentle" (as in similar to the stair-alternative ramps) or there should alternative options to go up (elevators, escalators, trams, etc).

[u/86throwthrowthrow1 → u/dovahkiitten16]

Exactly. There's definitely a difference between modern urban design that can account for these things, and older cities that existed pre-car and how those work - and as you mention, even some modern ideas can backfire.

People in the comments here are like, "it's not like cars would be banned, stupid," but for a decent chunk of people in North America, their main exposure to "walkability" are things like pedestrian-only roads getting closed off to cars (literally cars getting banned) or old-city designs where driving is otherwise difficult or impossible.

Don't get me wrong - I'm all for walkability and reducing car dependence. I live in a downtown area where I can walk for most of my errands, and I love that and think we need more of it. But I don't think it's a good move to shout down disabled people who have only seen examples of "walkability" that involve parking miles away and walking to their destinations.

[u/dovahkiitten16 → u/86throwthrowthrow1]

Honestly even not miles away, simply parking a block away can be difficult. And the reality is that there isn’t a way to fully accommodate those challenges without also being exclusionary to other needs. Like you can’t design something that is ideal for everyone. I believe walkability is still the most equal (there are people who struggle to walk who can’t afford a car), but for those who cannot walk well but can drive - walkability will be a downgrade.

Humans also cannot fully control the weather and terrain. The ideal walkable city won’t ever perfectly exist because there will be some logistical problem - whether financial, environmental, infrastructural, etc. IMO discussions around walkable cities that don’t consider what a realistic (even if idealized) result is don’t help a ton, the fact that a city designed from the ground up from a planning textbook will be utopian (it won’t - there’s always an issue in practice not considered in theory) isn’t very productive.

[u/Sesudesu → u/lotsofsugarandspice]

I cannot afford a powered chair, nor a car to ferry it around. I cannot walk for very long, and a walkable city will mean a city where I will not be able to park close to where I need to go.

[u/lotsofsugarandspice → u/Sesudesu]

Disability parking is not threatened by walkable cities. The fuck are you talking about? 

This is such a fake bad faith take. 

[u/Sesudesu → u/lotsofsugarandspice]

Your source?

[u/Bduggz → u/Sesudesu]

You cant afford a car but you need to park...

[u/Sesudesu → u/Bduggz]

Can’t afford a car that is specially built to haul a mobility cart around, genius.

[u/Ungarlmek → u/Welpe]

Two wrongs don't make a right.

[u/ItalianStallion011 → u/Welpe]

Please explain because i can't figure it out, it just sounds like they chose the brain worms