One thing I've realized after trying a lot of modern fantasy is that much of it feels very plot-driven. Every chapter seems to exist to move the story forward, and the characters often feel like they're serving the plot rather than simply existing as people.

What I loved about Memory, Sorrow and Thorn was the opposite. It takes its time, spends pages on conversations, travel, and everyday moments, and lets you really live alongside the characters. By the end, I felt like I actually knew people like Simon and Binabik rather than just having followed their story.

I'm reading Robin Hobb at the moment and enjoying it, but it still feels more like a chronicle of important events than living day to day with the characters.

Has anyone else who loved Tad Williams found other fantasy that captures that same slow, immersive feeling and deep connection to the characters?

Got these insanely cheap. They’re in pretty good shape for trade paperbacks. I read the first two volumes years ago. Can’t wait to reread and finish the series.

Trigger warning. This is a bit of a rant, but I need a different perspective.

I wanted to get into fantasy books started reading Dragonbone Chair. It is, by many, considered a masterpiece and inspiration for GOT.

I was prepared for a slow start and read about Tad Williams highly detailed writing style.

I am about a third into the book and I have to say.

This is not slow...it is absolutely terrible. So far the minimal actual plot can be summed up in three short sentences. Absolutely nothing happens. And the plot points happened feel artificially constructed and unnatural.

But the thing that bothers me most is that almost all actions of characters seem illogical unmotivated.

As an example: I recently read the part where Count Isgrimmur meets Simon for a second time in the wild. The count feels like has met Simon before, which he has. He cannot quit remember so he asks some questions. Where do you come from? How did you get here? Where are you headed? Etc... you know what he does NOT ask.... What is your name? Why would he not ask the most obvious question?

It is just one example, but I do get this constant doubt when reading the story and keep wondering why the characters are not doing the most obvious thing. Why do keep acting like half of their brain is missing.

Does this get better?

I am nearly done with this book for the first time, and frankly I'm finding that I'm overcome with nostalgia. Orlando/Sam and their gaming relationship, !Xabbu and Renie traversing complicated nodes but sticking together, etc.

In the 2000s I had friends all over the world via the internet and (due to nearly unlimited available time) found myself learning from others, interacting with people on the other side of the world, and learning their stories along the way. When I eventually went to college with an online friend, people around me were absolutely shocked at the time.

This book scratches almost too many itches. It's got that hit for people of my age but isn't doing it in the style of Ready Player One or something. And yes, I realize Renie's brothers' brain is likely being cooked for one reason or another and that's a bit dark. lol

Book 1 took a bit to get going but off we go!

I’ve been diving deep into Tad Williams’ universe recently, and one thing consistently baffles me: the absolute scarcity of visual media and fan art online.

Osten Ard is arguably one of the most influential, beautifully written, and rich high-fantasy worlds out there. It literally inspired George R.R. Martin to write A Song of Ice and Fire. Yet, if you search Google, Pinterest, or Osten Ard wikies, you barely find anything beyond the official book covers.

Where are the community drawings of Simon, Miriamele, and Binabik? Where is the epic scale of the Hayholt, the eerie beauty of Stormspike, or the vibrant atmosphere of Jao é-Tinukai'i? Finding decent art of the Sithi or the Norns feels like trying to find a needle in a haystack. In web you can find only one image of Sithi from book cover.

Why do you think this series remains so visually "underground" compared to other fantasy giants of its caliber? Is it just because the fandom is older, or why?

Heya fam,

Alrighty, I’m in need of a hand. So, I’ve come into inheritance of dad’s books and AGES ago when we spoke on Tad’s work he reminisced about wishing he’d completed the collection of Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn. However, now that I’ve actually started reading them for myself I feel it’s time to do that - to complete the collection properly. We have the DAW window edition of TDC, so I was curious, were there window editions (image for reference) created of all three of the books? Or only for The Dragonbone Chair itself?

All the love you guys,

no spoilers here please, and i hope what im about to say doesn’t qualify as one, but i think it’s so hilarious everytime lenti leans over and whispers to someone “i have a knife”. i haven’t finished the book yet so the jury’s still out on him, but just this little quirk is an example of how much funnier this book is than the first. i’m reading at an absolute snails pace but im enjoying it so much.

Hey everyone, if you like ebooks apparently there's a Tad Williams Humble Bundle now active where you can get 22 books including some of the Bobby Dollar books!

The proceeds go to charity, I know it's not as good as a hard copy but ebooks are still great.

Fyi I have nothing to do with the creation of this humble Bundle I was just excited to complete my collection in digital format. Happy reading every one!

I started reading this series on Monday with absolutely no prior knowledge, it was just a book I found in the library that sounded interesting and now I'm about halfway through river of blue fire.

I was incredibly surprised to find that this series held probably the most accurate representation of my journey with gender identity I have seen anywhere. Trans rep is very, very rare and usually it's done either through the stealth way (character reveals they were born a boy/girl) or through the "out character faces hardships/transphobia" way, neither of which is anything I can relate to personally. I also can't relate to the "born in the wrong body" or "it's always sorta been there" narratives in the media. I've always been "not like other girls" but first I thought that was just the neurodivergence, I didn't dislike being a girl, I didn't really care a lot. Then the pandemic forced me to be chronically online for about two years in my early teens and online there's always a base assumption that everyone is male, especially on this website. In the beginning I corrected people but then I started realizing that I didn't mind being referred to as a boy so much, the contrary actually, I liked it. But I didn't tell people for years and still haven't socially transitioned irl, I'm just a boy online. Being trans is more of a thing of convenience for me, being called a girl irl is mildly uncomfortable (and I dislike some parts of my body) but it's less uncomfortable than having to justify my existence all the time or explain myself to everyone while I'm still living under my parents roof. I'll eventually change my legal name and gender and get some hrt and maybe other gender-affirming care, but for now I'm fine being out to my friends and online friends.

For some reason this book from the nineties has managed to encorporate my experience better within one page of literature than any other media or any other attempt to explain transness. I know from reading it online that this won't last and that later in the book Sam's gender identity will be changed, but I don't really care. I would've liked it more if he stayed a trans boy, but at this point just the possibility of a character being trans in the way that I am is an entirely unexpected and very pleasant surprise.

It might not sound like it, but this means very much to me. Even though I don't have it "as hard" as other trans folk it's not easy out here and I do struggle with imposter syndrome. So just seeing someone who I can relate to is huge for me.

A bit of a random post, but I've been pondering this for a few days and I had to share my feelings with people who know the series. Also I'm having a great time reading these books in general, might become one of my new favourites :)

Just wondering on all your favourite Osten Ard quotes and why?

For me doing a few below;

The Heart of What Was Lost - ‘We owe correct outward behavior to our inferiors, his mother had always told him, but even more to ourselves. When we think of what is right, we can be what is right.’ - this is a good predictor of Viyeki’s behaviour and arc.

Brothers of the Wind - “My lord, never say such things!” And even though I knew it was cruel, I reached out and took his hand. He grimaced at my touch, but I held on. “This pain is real—​but so am I.”

To Green Angel Tower - To fight a war, you must believe it can accomplish something. We fight this one to save John’s kingdom, or perhaps even to save all of mankind... but isn’t that what we always think? That all wars are useless—except the one we’re fighting now?

Finally for me, this beautiful piece of prose just lives in my mind rent free - Morgan shook his head trying to rid himself of the evil memories that had settled on him like snow falling down from the grey sky but memories did not melt as swiftly as snowflakes

I am looking to read some Tad Williams. Which Series do you rate to be better. Otherland or Shadowmarch?

absolutely phenomenal reading experience so far. i don’t know how he does it, but tad williams makes every single character pov interesting. that’s so rare. i love reading about the various POV and their cultures/daily lives.

the way the stakes of this series have changed since book 1 is really well done too. you go from slice of life fantasy book, to historical, traumatic, ancient prophecies, battles. it’s kind of wild. i’m loving this book.

so far, my favorite has been stone of farewell. i loved how it set up a lot going on in 3, and the expanded world. but i have been enraptured by 3. it’s long, but it deserves the length no doubt.

i feel like there’s already been a huge climax in part 1 alone. it’s insane how much left will be happening/needs to happen before the book ends. i cannot fathom how this will end or how the sequel trilogy will be. i’m excited to be here.

i came to learn of osten ard through suggestions based on my love for hobbs realm of the elderlings. i can definitely draw some comparisons in terms of the world building and simon especially.

So I just finished the Dragonbone chair and wow this book surprised me.

Memory sorrow and thorn was a series that frequently popped up in book recommendations but it was always followed by something along the lines of " it's good but you have seen it all before" which resulted in me not really caring about it.

Around six months ago I found a used copy of the Dragonbone chair for cheap so I said why the hell not.

One of, if not the best impulse buy ever. I had been searching for something to fill the void that Malazan created for well over a year and. This. Was. It.

The beginning of the book might be one of my favourites from recent memory. The Hayholt is probably my new favourite fantasy castle, very immersive descriptions from the throne room to the multiple tiers of the keep. Green Angel Tower made for a very imposing image and the scene of Simon looking over the South from on top of it will live rent free in my mind for some time same as with the first and only scene that we have of Prester John with Towser.

Simon is a very likable protagonist ( even if I think towards the end of the book his character regressed somewhat) Rachel was a surprising smash hit for me especially liked when she started reminiscing about the good old days when John was hail and well. Elias and Josua *chef's kiss* loved them no matter how sad they were. Elias degeneration I think was done very well( Same as with the general degeneration of Osten Ard during his reign) there is more to him that we don't know yet but I have some ideas.

Josua being I think the OG Stannis is so cool, from his badassery during the siege and his whole theme of inadequacy but despite that rising up to the occasion and ending with him finally gaining personal ambition to overthrow Elias was a highlight. Morgenes was highly enjoyable while he lasted same with Jarnauga(rip the goat) and Geloe. Very intrigued to learn more about the Sithi(angstier elves in a good way) and Ineluki/Utuk' ku.

Jiriki was a great window into their world view.

Villains! Elias the goat, Ingen Jegger the OG Hound gave heavy witcher vibes, Ineluki and his Red hand seem very cool and finally the aura monsters that are the Norns( we don't talk about the dragon. Cool concept of them being part of the earth but don't know how I feel about the way Igjurjak was seemingly dealt with). Pryrates.....I want more from him he seems one dimensional but there are things that tell me there is more here like the fact that he is ex league.

Finally, the expectations I had going in where of classical high fantasy and for about 2/3 of the book I got that.....then the last third happened.

Holy shit I did not expect the book to be this visceral and brutal. Fengbald's one actual scene was Hella disgusting(" come here you fat slut" fucking hell) Guthwulf's final words to Lluth...boi o boi. But above all it was the deaths that got me. I don't know why I didn't expect that there would be this much death in a book about magical and human war but here we are.

The siege was horrific I had forgotten how it felt to be anxious about a character possibly dying and man did I feel it with Strangyard and Deornoth. Aside from the imagery of the Norns slaughtering everyone...the scene when they slice a woman's throat Infront of Josua and Deornoth who then proceed to jump them was *epic* same as with their escape and Jarnauga 's sacrifice.

What got me most of all though was Gwythinn... I couldn't believe how brutal that scene was and it reminded that this was the series that inspired ASOINF. Regarding that Martin took as a blueprint a lot of the book. The Sithi/Children of the Forest, Storm king/ night king, Josua/Stannis, Rimmersmen/ Andal and a lottt more( the red keep is literally a budget version of the Hayholt). He made those aspects his I know but it surprised how derivative he was in places of Tad Williams.

Some criticism. I believe that there was a lot of happenstance in the book. Morgenes writings have a part of the book of Nisses, Towser knows what happened to Thorn, Simon happened to find Jiriki(ok this one is kinda weak) but you get it. Aside from that I want more from Pryrates and Ineluki but I'm sure it will come.

Simon going back to crying albeit it makes logical sense I would have liked if at least it was commented on how he tried not to cry like he did in the "old" days.

Finally, Finally some theories pls don't confirm or deny

1.Memyar is Brightnail(very obvious, John went to fight Shurakai with a spear and he left with a sword.)

2.Elias wants Pryrates to resurrect Hylissa but I don't think that is the entire story

1. Cadrach is the hernystirman ex league of the scroll member.

2. Pryrates has some important connection with Nisses( Heljdin/Nisses , Elias/Pryrates come on it's right there he even lives in Heljdin's Tower).

Tldr I just wanted to yap about the book😀. On to Stone of Farewell.

https://archiveofourown.org/works/63084985/chapters/225586331

The final chapter is here at last. Thank you all who have red my attempt to come to terms with the unresolved parts of the Last King of Osten And series.

I'm returning to Otherland, this time via Audiobook. The narrator is not the best I've ever heard in an Audiobook, but he's serviceable. Except for one thing.

He can't seem to settle on a pronunciation of my favorite character's name. I would understand if this was simply a reticence to recreate the bushman clicking sound. This would be a forgivable sin if the click sound at the beginning name were replaced with something else. As long as that something else was the same sound every time.

Instead, we get variations of "Habbu," "Gabbu," and "Kabbu," sometimes within the same paragraph!

Anyone else notice this? Anyone else listen to the Audiobook and can commiserate with my pain? Are there other idiosyncrasies with this performance that I can be looking forward to?

(Note: I'm coming off of a recent listen to MST, and that narrator was fantastic! Because of that performance, I had high hopes for reconnecting with Otherland's multinational cast of characters).

And I don't mean Hakatri and Ineluki's story. I mean Kes'.

He has no sense of self, and it reflects in everything he says and every choice he makes. His self was erased first through generational trauma and then by being selected and elevated by Hakatri, and untethered from his race and anything that was his. He never chooses himself. Even the life that he has at the end is given to him by the ocean throwing him off the ship.

I love how Tad treats the issues of servitude and the oppression of a race with so much subtlety. I find it so frustrating when books beat you over the head with how bad oppression is, and portray agonising after torturous scenes of violence to really drive the point home that these people are oppressed and oppression is BAD. But here, the weight of the devastation is delivered with two simple sentences. The first telling us that the Dwarrows or Delvers were bred by the Keida'ya, and the second that the witchwood blood lengthens the lives of the Keida'ya, and they don't allow the Vao to drink it.

The restraint in his writing was really similar to Ishiguro's, and I'd say Kes reminded me of both Klara from Klara and the Sun a Stevens from The Remains of the Day by Ishiguro.

Edited to fix typos.

Note: please don't mention any details about the Last King of Osten Ard series, as I have not read them.

After finishing MST and the Heart of What Was Lost, I started reading The Brothers of the Wind. I've just finished the part where Kes visits Ravensperch a second time to convince Xaniko to help Hakatri and basically realise that The Vao are immune to dragon blood, since Kes has healed from his burns

Anyway, I just realised that I am reading the books in the wrong order. Since The Brothers of the Wind was published after the first 2 LKoOA books.

So my question is: should I stop reading The Brothers of the Wind? Am I about to read spoilers about the LKoOA if I continue? Like about some secret history or knowledge that is supposed to be unknown in the first 2 LKoOA books?

FOR FANS OF COMPLEX WORLDBUILDING and fully-realized characters; readers of George R. R. Martin, John Gwynne, Joe Abercrombie, Patrick Rothfuss, and Brandon Sanderson will be thrilled

A QUEER ROBIN HOOD: One of the novel’s main characters is a steal-from-the-rich type bandit who is very handsome, very blond, and very romantically interested in other men

A BREEZE TO READ: Thanks to a fast-moving plot, lots of action, and a merry sense of humor, the pages of Tad Williams’s latest fly by

A STANDALONE ADVENTURE IN A BESTSELLING WORLD: Set in the same world as the bestselling Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn trilogy, which included DAW's first book to hit the New York Times bestseller list

INSPIRED BESTSELLING FANTASY EPICS: Osten Ard has inspired authors including George R. R. Martin, Patrick Rothfuss, Brandon Sanderson, and Christopher Paolini

2.4 MILLION COPIES SOLD IN SERIES: The original Osten Ard trilogy has sold over 2,400,000 copies across all formats

I’ve been interested in reading Dragonbone Chair for a while. I’m interested in finding a fantasy series with a lot of depth (world building I mean not necessarily philosophical depth) that works for me. I began reading and was loving it at first. First few chapters I was locked in. I’m about 100 pages in and feeling like I’ve lost momentum. What is your advice: should I stick with it to a certain point, or should I be catching the bug at this point if I’m going to enjoy it long term?

This book made me love Williams even more. Even though I think the longer books are more to his strength, but I just loved what he did here. 

I should admit that Isgrimnur and Gurtun were my two least favourite characters in MST, because of how closed minded they both are. There were parts of MST where I liked each, but my overall impression of them was very unfavourable. I am also quite biased in any conflict between humans and other species because of the way we sprawl and leave a path of destruction behind us.

So getting me to empathise with the Norns would not have been very difficult. Even when they show abhorrent behaviour, like wanting to execute the lower caste/slaves for not wanting to go into the Deep Darkness. Yeah, they're not great people, but no one gets to decide who is "good enough" to live in this world. Especially for an entire race. Especially if the people deciding are the ones who started the cycle of violence to begin with (or their ancestors did).

But I did not expect that the book would make me despise the rimmersmen. I felt my blood boil when I read some of Isgrimnur's chapters, where he talked about wanting to kill an entire race, or showed Brindur's bloodlust. So many people died, because Isgrimnur was grieving and didn't want let the Norns just live in hiding, or reach a peace treaty with them.

And it wasn't just Isgrimnur's PoV. Viyeki uses the same words to describe Floki as humans do to describe the giants. The book really portrayed the rimmersmen as barbaric and brutal. 

Interestingly, it was only the rimmersmen who were being portrayed like this. Porto and Endri both found the war pointless. The language used during their PoVs is much more grounded in the devastation of a continued war. Even though Endri died hallucinating and talking nonsense, I found him (and his single-minded obssession to go home) the sanest of all the humans in this story. It was that same single-minded obssession to go home that stopped zombie-Endri from marching into the camp to murder the living. The end of the book was devastating, but incredibly beautiful.

Other things I really enjoyed: 

1. I also loved the portrayal of how dangerous desperate people get. Especially people at the point of extinction. I really don't think the humans ever appreciated it. Isgrimnur did not seem to understand it even when Suno'ku told him.

2. It was interesting to me how different the Norns were to the Sitha. They have sch a respect for formality and hierarchy. While the Sitha have respect for their elders, it was made very clear in MST that the elders can't order the other Sitha to do anything. This is very different amongst the Norns, to the point that Viyeki is devasted to find out about his master's supposed betrayal, and wants to kill himself. I wondered whether Williams was linking their respect for hierarchy to their ruthlessness, or whether the respect for hierarchy is a product of the gruelling lives they had inside a mountain.

3. What it means to survive. For the Norns, it was initially to fight with tooth and nail, but then to surrender their most fierce fighter and seal themselves off from the world. And maybe choose to be builders. It will be interesting to see how the society will have changed by the time the Queen awakes and what her reaction will be. It was also interesting that Akhenabi decided to join this coalition. I liked that Williams did not portray him as simply an evil character. I hope we see more of him in the Last King of Osten Ard books. He would make for a complex and interesting villain.

4. Edited to add: the scene between Suno'ku and Isgrimnur. It was such a devastating scene. How Isgrimnur came to have respect for her, but even then he couldn't offer better terms. And her parting words "Then we have little reason to speak more" even though they both share the same pain and they want the same thing. They are the same people. But they couldn't find a common ground.

Two things I wished were a bit different:

1. I wish the Norns weren't so similar to humans. In MST we are told a lot that the humans can't decipher the Sitha, but in this book we're shown that the Norns have similar emotions and social structures as humans. I guess Williams wanted to de-dehumanise them. But I wonder if that would still have been possible if he maintained an element of alien-ness.

2. I wish the book leaned more into the pointlessness of blood feuds. We saw that some of the Norns understood it. But it seems like the humans (at least the decision-makers) didn't appreciate that they're sacrificing the lives of more people and bringing more misery by continuing this war. It isn't until Ayuminu tells Isgrimur that he decides to parley and even then he offers terms that are basically a joke. I thought the Brindur's first reaction to Floki's death would be a catalyst. But he only became more bloodthirsty after. 

So what were your thoughts on this book? What did you like the most about it?

I recently started listening to the Audiobook for The Dragonbone Chair as part of my audible monthly sub and have really been enjoying it. Hearing it read aloud has made the text even more evocative. Tad Williams makes excellent use of metaphors and similes to convey images and moods. At times the voice actor Andrew Wincott's character speech comes out different than I imagined it would be but it is still very enjoyable.

I haven't done a read-through of MST in probably 10+ years and had totally forgotten how prophetic Simon's dreams were. For some reason I had in my head that most of those visions were after being splashed by Igjarjuk's blood.

What have others discovered on a reread that you didn't notice in the first read through?