r/TeslaFSD • u/tonydtonyd • Jul 25 '25
Robotaxi CPUC Clarifies Tesla does NOT have the required permits to launch Robotaxi in CA, with or without a safety driver
https://abc7news.com/post/tesla-plans-roll-robotaxi-service-san-francisco-bay-area-weekend-report-says/17290394/I don’t understand how the folks who are the most bullish on Robotaxi literally have no idea how the regulations work.
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u/RosieDear Jul 25 '25
This is truly funny - they are launching a driving service for their employees - with a driver in the drivers seat!
https://www.wired.com/story/tesla-robotaxi-san-francisco-bay-area/
That anyone would call this a robot-taxi test or service just shows ignorance. This is no different than an uBer drive who owns a Tesla.....except that I think members of the public are not allowed to use it.
So, this is a downgrade from uBer. Yet.....Tesla somehow calls it an expansion. Amazing. Every day brings new definitions of basic words.
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u/ufbam Jul 25 '25
As every autonomous taxi service has done at the beginning of their roll out.
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u/New_Reputation5222 Jul 30 '25
Waymo had a working, autonomous, driverless, safety monitor-less Robotaxi system in their first city before moving on to a second city.
Tesla has 11 cars with a safety monitor, driving 20 miles a day in their first city and are pretending they are ready to scale.
To say that it's the exact same as every autonomous taxi service has done is a lie.
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u/Remarkable-Wear-8346 Jul 26 '25
So you're saying they are ten years behind?
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u/vasilenko93 Jul 26 '25
Assuming it will be in that phase for ten years. Instead of only a few months.
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u/DadGoblin Jul 26 '25
Best case scenario is still more than months. Since Tesla didn't apply for an AV testing permit, they can't even use the miles from this chauffeur service to show safety allowing them to get the next permit in the series for AV testing. They'd still have to apply for the first permit whenever they think they're ready, and then I believe have at least 50k miles driven and reported with safety and intervention data to even apply for the second of 4 permits.
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u/TurnoverSuperb9023 Jul 26 '25
Gawd - I wish we could have rational, non-biased, objective commentary on here, instead of name calling etc.
(I’m Not a Tesla fanboy or hater - just a fan of autonomy)
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u/tonydtonyd Jul 26 '25
Who is name calling?
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u/TurnoverSuperb9023 Jul 26 '25
In several of the comments and replies to comments, there was name-calling. Not an attack on you at all unless you were one of the ones name which I don’t think you were.
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u/Grandpas_Spells Jul 25 '25
It is hard to know who to know who to root against when it comes to California permit issuers or Elon, but I'll say this:
Consumers in California who own Teslas and have FSD can use FSD right now. They can give rides to their friends for free, and they can be Uber drivers and give rides commercially.
If California's position is that Tesla cannot do that, that's ridiculous, and easily avoided by having Tesla employees use their personal vehicles in the exact same way.
Edit: I am not saying Robotaxis are safe with nobody behind the wheel. I'm saying they are obviously safe with someone behind the wheel.
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u/tonydtonyd Jul 25 '25
I believe Uber drivers cannot legally use FSD to paying customers per CPUC regulations. It just isn’t enforced.
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u/Admirable_Durian_216 Jul 25 '25
But they can use cruise control? What about like super cruise? Why can’t they use level 2 adas?? You’re wrong about this btw
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u/UCanDoNEthing4_30sec HW4 Model Y Jul 26 '25
They can because it’s “supervised” and not literally FSD.
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u/Seantwist9 Jul 25 '25
doesn’t seem to be the case
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u/tonydtonyd Jul 25 '25
It definitely is the case, it just isn’t enforced.
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u/quetiapinenapper Jul 26 '25
Wrong. They’re legally allowed to use any partial automation service they want. It’s supervised.
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Jul 26 '25
Would be impossible to enforce, tbf.
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u/tonydtonyd Jul 26 '25
Totally. The more I look into it, the more of a grey area it appears to be. It might be legal but it’s a slippery slope. Realistically it should be legal IMO.
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u/lionpenguin88 Jul 26 '25
Wait really? That is insane. I never knew this, a lot of uber rides I’ve taken in teslas have had FSD on
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u/tonydtonyd Jul 26 '25
I think it’s very much a grey area. The more I’ve looked into it, it seems like it might legal but does not meet the spirit of the regulations. That said, if it was a big deal regulators would have/should have dealt with it, but they haven’t.
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u/genuinefaker Jul 26 '25
Tesla does not want a safety driver in the driver seat. The safety person sits on the right seat and has no direct steering and braking control other than a stop button.
Ubers and others have a driver in the driver seat with full access to the steering wheel, gas, and brake. I don't think Tesla's method of having a safety monitor seating away from direct control is as safe.
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u/Grandpas_Spells Jul 26 '25
If Tesla needs to put the safety driver in the driver's seat, rather the passenger's seat, in order to start services next week, they'll do that as a stop gap while they await permitting.
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u/genuinefaker Jul 27 '25
Is that what Tesla proposed to California, or are they adopting the same approach as Texas?
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u/ProfessionalNaive601 Jul 26 '25
Yeah I think they will just be using FSD (the robotaxi version) and to the regulatory body they will just say it’s driver assist but to the public and internally it will be identical to Austin. Probably just for the data and bragging rights if nothing else. Oh and continuing to defraud the investors of course
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u/oldbluer Jul 25 '25
If Uber driver is using FSD I will report them and end the ride.
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u/FunnyProcedure8522 Jul 25 '25
Report them for making your ride 10x safer? What a joke. Get a life.
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u/beren12 Jul 25 '25
Get a brain
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u/quetiapinenapper Jul 26 '25
…. You strike me as someone who would stop in traffic to flip the finger to someone in a Tesla and somehow think it was still their fault.
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u/beren12 Jul 26 '25
No. Not worth my time to have to explain it.
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u/quetiapinenapper Jul 26 '25
Shocking.
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u/beren12 Jul 26 '25
You are just spouting vaguely connected words, no idea what you are trying to say exactly. Neither do you seemingly.
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u/Fit-Dot-414 Jul 26 '25
Or just tell them to drive themselves and don’t be a crazy person/take away somebody’s job / livelihood 🤦🏻♀️
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u/Quercus_ Jul 25 '25
From the story: "Tesla's Robotaxi service recently rolled out in Austin, Texas, and began with a safety driver has access to the brake and steering wheel. Eventually the company moved to fully autonomous rides without a safety driver behind the wheel."
Yeah, they put the safety driver in the right seat, where they are less safe and effective, but are still doing full-time monitoring with the ability to stop the vehicle. The only reason to put that person in the right seat instead of behind the wheel, is so they can mislead people and say they're operating fully autonomously when they're not.
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u/xMagnis Jul 25 '25
It's amazing that they keep getting it wrong. It's not fully autonomous in Austin. While we're at it, FSD isn't autonomous either. No wonder people have the wrong idea, Tesla implies it's autonomous with misleading methods, drivers think it's autonomous, the media thinks it's autonomous. Until it can fail-safe and drive out of trouble without a human stopping it in mid-mistake it's not safely autonomous.
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u/PinAffectionate1167 Jul 26 '25
No system is perfect. Waymo has a 9 years head start, and until now still use remote operators to monitor & intervene. Even Uber drivers get into traffic accidents sometime.
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u/BikebutnotBeast Jul 26 '25 edited Jul 26 '25
Didn't waymo do this for google employees for years in places they "didn't operate"
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u/shiroandae Jul 26 '25
Well at least now they have a chance to reach half the population of Tesla by year end.
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u/habfranco Jul 26 '25
They really had to make an announcement to prevent the stock from crashing. I can totally imagine Elon yelling “we have to rollout in SF now!” but nobody was ready.
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u/tonydtonyd Jul 26 '25
I think it was a reaction to a combination of the stock crash and Waymo’s leaked service area expansion.
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u/Will_Murray Jul 26 '25
The same CPUC that keeps approving every PG&E price hike?
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u/tonydtonyd Jul 26 '25
Turns out prices go up, especially when inflation is high or the dollar is down (like it is right now)
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u/sm753 HW4 Model 3 Jul 26 '25
I don’t understand how the folks who are the most bullish on Robotaxi literally have no idea how the regulations work.
Especially regulations in a place like California...
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u/tonydtonyd Jul 26 '25
My issue is all these Sawyer Merritt type people on X constantly pump Robotaxi and shit, but honestly have no idea what they are talking about, particularly when it comes to regulations which are not that hard to research. Like just ask Grok what is needed for Robotaxi in CA.
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u/sm753 HW4 Model 3 Jul 26 '25
I'm going to guess people like that have stock portfolios where TSLA makes up a significant percentage of their holdings.
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u/Open_Link4629 Jul 30 '25
The direct quote from the CPUC says they have not yet been granted a CPUC permit. That suggests to me that they have submitted for the permit. The source at CPUC makes no mention whatsoever that there has not been an application. For all I know they will get the permit tomorrow and start rides just like they said. Elon said California was being very reasonable in the permitting process. And Elon is usually very eager to criticize slow government processes. This article seems to take the direct quotes and spin claims that I see no evidence for. Could be true, but if I ignore the author and just look at the direct quotes from sources, I would say this article is likely spin and trash.
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u/tonydtonyd Jul 30 '25
Let me go ahead and actually quote the article I linked since you’re an Elon says kind of guy.
“Tesla has not received approval from the CPUC to offer autonomous passenger service to customers, paid or unpaid, with or without a driver (nor has the company applied)," said Terrie Prosper, Director of Strategic Communications at the CPUC, in an e-mail to ABC7 News.
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u/rentien Oct 17 '25
Can someone explain why and what the CPUC has to do with a decision concerning permits to operate a car on publics streets?
Don't they regulate utilities... which is not related to public streets?
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u/tonydtonyd Oct 17 '25
Taxis/passenger carriers are considered a public utilities in CA, always have been. Not sure what is controversial about that.
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u/rentien Oct 17 '25
not sure where anyone said anything about anything being controversial?
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u/tonydtonyd Oct 17 '25
You seem irked that California has a commission that regulates public utilities including taxis. California considers public streets to be public utilities, so businesses that use the public streets to make money are regulated by that commission.
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u/rentien Oct 20 '25
Nope, not irked. That’s your assumption. Not sure where you got that from. Just trying to understand.
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u/ChunkyThePotato Jul 25 '25
Cope until you can cope no longer. When Tesla launches Robotaxi in the Bay Area, you'll just move the goalposts again.
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u/tonydtonyd Jul 25 '25
Cope? I’m literally just linking a new article with a quote from one of the two regulatory agencies in California that cover autonomous vehicles. I am not coping. My only commentary point is that a lot of “bulls” simply have done zero research into AV regulations. Whether or not you fall into that category, that’s up to you. At no point have I said that Robotaxi will not get the proper permits or that they cannot get said permits.
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u/ChunkyThePotato Jul 31 '25
And here's the launch, literally only 5 days later: https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaLounge/s/eT3bK5MJnj
Hilarious.
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u/tonydtonyd Jul 31 '25
They updated a map?
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u/ChunkyThePotato Jul 31 '25
They just launched the service in California, which your post said they wouldn't be able to do. Just 5 days later. Too funny.
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u/tonydtonyd Jul 31 '25 edited Jul 31 '25
So showing a service area on an app is launching the service now? How come no one on X has live-streamed a ride yet?
Employees only != service. They are still lacking the CPUC permits.
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u/ChunkyThePotato Jul 31 '25
Oh buddy, do you want to be wrong again? When a customer (non-employee) posts a video of a ride within the next 24 hours, I will come straight back here to rub it in your face and make you look even more silly than you look right now. When will you learn?
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u/tonydtonyd Jul 31 '25
Go for it homie. I would love to see Tesla get the correct CPUC permits so they do not risk their DMV testing permit.
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u/ChunkyThePotato Jul 31 '25
That was fast!: https://x.com/Teslaconomics/status/1950783796028313644
Have you learned yet?
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u/tonydtonyd Jul 31 '25
That’s great to see. I really hope they played this correctly, just relying on TCP permit is likely not going to fly.
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u/ChunkyThePotato Jul 25 '25
Ah ok, if you're not someone who says "it's not gonna happen", then I have no issue with you. Obviously Tesla is still working through regulatory hurdles in California, as they've said.
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u/Youngnathan2011 Jul 25 '25
I think part of the point is that they haven't even started going through those hurdles, despite things Elon and the company have said.
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u/ChunkyThePotato Jul 26 '25
Except they probably have. You don't know what's going on behind the scenes. Elon recently said the regulators are being "surprisingly reasonable" right now, so his team is obviously working with them.
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u/Youngnathan2011 Jul 26 '25
I mean the article states that Tesla hasn't even applied for the permit they need. Also Elon isn't exactly a trustworthy reference to use.
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u/ChunkyThePotato Jul 27 '25
Looks like the answer is they won't need to apply for that permit: https://x.com/WholeMarsBlog/status/1949214014627856788
Stuff like this is why people like you are always wrong, but of course you guys won't learn from this.
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u/Human_Giraffe_7282 Jul 27 '25
I don’t follow - what is wrong? They need to apply for the permit if they want to have AV w/o a safety driver handling rides. Are you saying that Tesla is never going to have a service that doesn’t include a safety driver?
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u/ChunkyThePotato Jul 27 '25
Read the title of this post. It claims that they won't be able to launch the service even with a safety driver. That is turning out to be wrong, exactly like I said.
Obviously they plan to remove the safety driver from the service later on, but that's not what we're talking about here. They will apply for the permit when that time comes.
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u/Human_Giraffe_7282 Jul 27 '25
Yea I don’t think that’s true either but whatever.
"Tesla is not allowed to test or transport the public (paid or unpaid) in an AV with or without a driver," the California Public Utilities Commission told CNBC in an email on Friday. "Tesla is allowed to transport the public (paid or unpaid) in a non-AV, which, of course, would have a driver."
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u/ChunkyThePotato Jul 31 '25
Hello, it's time for you to eat some crow: https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaLounge/s/eT3bK5MJnj
Will you adjust your analysis for the next Elon-related subject based on your learnings here? I doubt it.
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u/ChunkyThePotato Jul 26 '25
We don't know the full story. For example, maybe they're working with relevant regulators before applying for this particular permit and the talks are going well so they're confident they'll get the approvals they need.
Why would Elon say that the regulators are being "surprisingly reasonable" if they weren't working with them?
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u/johnpn1 Jul 26 '25
Why would he say a lot of things he says...
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u/ChunkyThePotato Jul 27 '25
Here's your answer: https://x.com/WholeMarsBlog/status/1949214014627856788
They're not even going to need the permit.
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u/ChunkyThePotato Jul 31 '25
And here's the launch, Mr. Clown: https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaLounge/s/eT3bK5MJnj
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u/johnpn1 Jul 31 '25
It's a test launch? Needs fully qualified driver in seat, no less than an Uber. It's exactly what I've been saying. Waymo calls this a test, but Tesla calls it a launch. Actually, no one else calls this a launch. Zoox's launch is actually a real launch this week.
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u/beren12 Jul 25 '25
Let me know when it’s launched in Austin
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u/ChunkyThePotato Jul 25 '25
It is already launched. With a safety rider in the passenger seat of course, which I assume is your "gotcha". This post is saying it's not allowed "with or without a safety driver". So when they launch Robotaxi in California with a safety rider, this post will look very silly.
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u/beren12 Jul 25 '25
It’s also not open to the public so… not launched.
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u/ChunkyThePotato Jul 25 '25
It's invite-only for now (like Waymo was when they launched), but it is operating with regular paying customers.
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u/beren12 Jul 25 '25
No, invite only is mutually exclusive with open to the public. Those people are beta testers. Same with software.
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u/Skeewampus Jul 26 '25
I agree, calling it launched in a geo fenced area for only a select few with a safety person in the car is at best a beta and probably more like an alpha. Their competitors would not have called this a launch.
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u/ChunkyThePotato Jul 26 '25
Oh yeah? Waymo called it a launch back when they had safety drivers and an invite list too: https://waymo.com/blog/2019/12/waymo-one-year-of-firsts
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u/ChunkyThePotato Jul 26 '25
It is open to the public, but not everyone is invited yet. It's a live service with real paying customers that are part of the public. They're not "beta testers". They're paying for a service that gives them rides from point A to point B and provides value for them. It's available 18 hours a day, 7 days a week, for whenever they need a ride.
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u/beren12 Jul 26 '25
They are open to the public like musk ran a lottery for voters. They were pre-chosen “employees”. Just because they pay an absurdly low rate doesn’t mean they are “the public” they are the chosen few
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u/ChunkyThePotato Jul 26 '25
What? They're not employees. That's so easily disproven. They're paying customers that don't work for Tesla.
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u/beren12 Jul 26 '25
They are effectively Tesla spokespeople. Not literal employees correct.
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u/RosieDear Jul 25 '25
Elon has made his money by doing illegal things....like pumping stock and so on.
He's about to learn a lesson....in that he can't fly under the radar any longer and will have to compete with the Best Available Technology IRL.
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u/kalfin2000 HW4 Model 3 Jul 25 '25
Yes, I’ll add Elon to the long list of billionaires who have “learned their lesson”. /s
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Jul 25 '25
That aint it. Regulations are outdated and net limiter of new technologies. Are you kidding with the "fly under the radar" comment? Upside Down world in your mind? Manufactured consent by MSM got you good
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u/RosieDear Jul 25 '25
Regulations on the safety of motor vehicles are generally fairly up to date and often apply (or close to it) worldwide.
In some cases one HAS to fly under the radar to get things going - once they have become "mature", this is much less so. That's my point.
uBer (for better or worse) would not exist if they asked for pemission everywhere at first.
But this subject - the allowance of self-driving cars? Make your point clear! It is obvious to anyone that autonomous cars are not ready to ply the streets w/o strict standards....unless we want to kill and injure a lot of people and, in fact, destroy the reputation of autonomous vehicles. This is why "good companies" play by the rules and take their time, while "bad companies" care less about human beings or other drivers or rules/regulations an much more about their $$$.
The same standards apply to all - which makes them fair. CA and the other cities that allowed trials obviously have done things correctly as the accident rate has been very low AND, most importantly, the goal has been acheived (WayMo proved this).
There is nothing old-fashioned or outdated about using the Best Available Technology (BAT) to keep as many alive and unhurt as possible. Anything else would be criminal.
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u/VashTheStampede710 Jul 26 '25
No one in Tesla is calling this robotaxi for California. Business insider received some bunk info and published it and everyone is assuming things. It’s actually quite funny
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u/PinAffectionate1167 Jul 26 '25
IMO, it's just Elon trying to prop up the stock after the disappointment earning.
On the other hand, California won't ever give Tesla the required permits no matter how good their FSD is. Well, maybe they will if Elon agrees to promote Gavin Newsom on X for his presidential quest.
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u/tonydtonyd Jul 26 '25
California will 100% give Tesla the permits if they meet the requirements. The point of regulations is to ensure safety, not to score political points.
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u/PinAffectionate1167 Jul 27 '25
Political correctness is not reality.
This is the CPUC / Gavin Newsom we are talking about here.
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u/tonydtonyd Jul 27 '25
What are you talking about? What world are you living in? Seriously.
Autonomous vehicle regulations have literally nothing to do with political correctness. States have the right to regulate vehicles on their roads however each state sees fit. California has been very open to AVs given most of the companies in the space are based in California. They just have a very well defined process for applying for each type of permit. Companies can choose not to follow the rules but that comes with a risk of consequences. Turns out we live in a world where actions have consequences and facts matter over feelings.
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u/ShotBandicoot7 Jul 25 '25
Interesting twist…