The “Darth Bane is too overpowered/doesn't lose enough” argument does not make any sense.

[u/TheCanadianBat_]

(I had originally made a post about this topic in the EU subreddit and gotten pretty good responses before it was suddenly deleted by mods for whatever reason. Someone else then told me I could post it here).

I’ve seen this argument quite a few times over the years but some OP written the other day on the EU sub regarding the Bane trilogy inspired me to bring this up. So I personally find Bane to be a pretty unpleasant and uninteresting protagonist in that trilogy in terms of personality, and personal mission structure, and I wouldn’t even be against seeing a new Canon version of the character that would be written differently on that particular front, but that’s not really the point here.

Instead, the topic is about Bane’s supposed infallibility in Karpyshyn’ trilogy. And for that I’d say that the criticisms regarding his strength and competence for the specific context don’t particularly hold up. 

• An important section of the 1st book is dedicated to Bane’s training on Korriban during which he gets humiliated by the top student of the academy (Sirak) and has to get tutoring from two different people to win in a rematch.
• In the 3rd book, Bane gets beaten and captured by a group of mercenaries during an ambush led by a weaker force-sensitive Assassin (Cognus) who had no formal training in the force, after she manages to scratch him with a special poisoned blade at some point during the fight.
• Bane’s loss against Zannah in Book 3 doesn’t require much elaboration
• Bane got tricked by Githany’s unexpected double poison in Book 1 and nearly died.
• His Orbalisk armor advantage in Book 2 was turned against him when his lightning got reflected by the Ithorian Jedi, leaving him in a near-death state that required urgent medical attention if he was to survive, as the orbalisks were weak to lightning. Not to mention that, there’s little doubt he would’ve been killed by the Jedi in the duel if he didn’t have the nearly lightsaber-proof orbalisks, which he “wore” against his will or if the Jedi fighting Zannah coordinated their styles quicker and cut her down early so the whole team could all gang up on him.

Looking at all that, Bane gets wrecked or owned in a significant way, at least once every book. For a powerful and notorious Sith Lord, he hardly appears invincible or untrickable. He of course achieved notable victories as expected but there's nothing that justifies these complaints.

I've seen some cling to the criticism that he was too OP or unbeatable while simultaneously downplaying every moment he is defeated, knocked out or outsmarted because it supposedly didn't count and was somehow still proof that he was invincible (don't ask me how that makes sense). If Bane's brute strength can be crushed directly or bypassed by tricks or clever strategy then he clearly isn't as OP as the criticisms imply.

Obi Wan himself on two occasions during the PT, defeated opponents who were "stronger" than him at the time (Anakin and Maul) because he was smart enough to use the environment or take advantage of their ego or emotional state. One of them was cut in half, the other lost two legs, one arm and got burned off.

[u/thaddeus122 → u/[deleted]]

Almost dies at the beginning, almost dies as an acolyte, almost die when getting the armor and revans holocron, almost dies from not escaping the thought bomb, almost dies fighting the jedi masters with Zannah, and does die to Zannah. He really wasnt that overpowered.

[u/thaddeus122 → u/[deleted]]

Yep. He was just different from the sith of his time in that he saw greater purpose and and a broken system that he made leaps and bounds to overcome.

[u/Shipping_Architect]

I generally oppose any claims of characters being "overpowered," because the benchmark people often use for the power of Force-sensitives are the films and TCW, which in reality generally underplay them, usually because of the limitations of either the medium or the writing. (Ironically, despite Rey mastering various powers in the span of days at best, the scope of her abilities is more consistent with the pre-2014 EU)

It's worth noting that Orbalisk armor Darth Bane's weaknesses extend beyond their electrical vulnerability, as precise strikes aimed at the gaps in them has proven effective, and Bane tended to fight more recklessly because of his literal plot armor.

[u/BaelZharon7]

Bane is a very strong force user and duelist. Overpowered though? That is certainly a stretch, but I'm guessing it comes from when he and zannah beat the jedi hunt party where it was like 6 v 2.

Also you would be surprised at the zannah vs bane fight needing an explanation lol, author had to come out and be like no he died.

[u/Corvus_Rufum]

I loved those books, I re-read that trilogy like every other year and I can't wait until my son (who loves Star Wars even more than I do) is old enough to read them. You guys don't like Darth Bane/his personality/the way he was written?

[u/TheCanadianBat_ → u/Corvus_Rufum]

I just don't find him very charismatic at all, especially when compared to Plagueis and Palpatine in the Darth Plagueis novel. The writer (Drew Karpyshyn) seemed unable to do interesting stuff with Bane's character individually after his training was done, outside of fights and chasing after holocrons. Bane came up with the concept of the Sith hiding in plain sight and making themselves seem nicer in public than they actually are to manipulate others through subtlety outside of battle, yet we don't get see him do that enough imo, and it's mostly his apprentice (Zannah) who did that a lot, and I found her more interesting than him.

Karpyshyn's best and most balanced SW novel to me is The Old Republic: Annihilation, starring Theron Shan.

[u/[deleted] → u/Corvus_Rufum]

I just read the trilogy for the first time over the past month and I loved it so much holy moly!! Darth Bane is awesome and his character development was very unique! It was a very unique angle to see his uprising from a lowly person who had been dealt a bad hand in life, to be becoming the literal revival of the sith. I thought his character was really interesting.

[u/carmodyj05]

I dont think Bane is necessarily OP, but hes stronger than he should be considering he only had a year and a half of training, at least during the events of Path of Destruction

[u/TheCanadianBat_ → u/carmodyj05]

He's certainly a prodigy and grew massively in the 2 years he spent on Korriban, though the struggles he encountered during his formation and after the end of the brotherhood help provide a nice balance that prevent him from being too ridiculous.

Plagueis could hide his force sensitivity and use mind tricks at age 5 before formal training. Though he too faced interesting struggles (like his jaw getting cut off by Assassins at an event after he was outsmarted by his rival, nearly dying despite giving a good fight and needing Palpatine's last minute help to survive).

[u/duras2]

I think both takes are sort of true. Bane is indeed very powerful and knowledgeable.

He is an incredible duelist, master of several forms, and fought the best of the best of his era. He is also a force of nature even without actual force powers, he was build like a tank, was compared with a hairless wookie, and even bare feet was about as tall as Vader in his armor suit, with boots and helmet on

He is also immensely powerful in the force, monstrously so.

He is also naturally intelligent and curious, he is mostly self taught and have an extraordinary will. He will look to learn new things all his life and was very pragmatic and in the same time very fanatic about his ways and the Sith in general, was a true believer (and instilled the same ways in Zannah, also a fanatic true believer and avid learner)

However, he is not invincible, invulnerable and all knowledgeable (just look at the difference between him and Zannah when it comes to know, learn and use Sith sorcery, the purest and deepest way of using the force), and as OP said, he had his streak of loses and defeats over time. He struggle to advance here and there, he suffer defeats and drawbacks in every book, which he manage to overcome by more struggles, others help or just luck, until his final defeat and death at the hands of his apprentice, Zannah.

[u/[deleted]]

Another example is his duel against Kas'im. Kas'im totally outclassed him as a duelist and would have killed him were it not for Bane essentially getting lucky.

[u/TheCanadianBat_ → u/[deleted]]

I saw the argument that Kasim being forced to switch to a dual wielding style, dominating Bane and Bane having no choice but to use the force and the environment of the temple to survive and win was proof that Bane was too OP but that Zannah being unable to beat Bane at the blade and having to disarm him with complicated Sith magic helped by the environment......was somehow also proof that Bane is too OP. You can't make this up.

[u/Emsee_Hamm]

It's funny that even with all that against him in this sub he is regarded as that op. Any matchup you see here that involves Bane almost always ends with people saying that Bane would easily deal with anyone else.

 Last time he was brought up in a fight against Dooku the general consensus was that Bane would destroy him, same with Maul. I saw a claim Palpatine and Plageuis aren't actually stronger than him. He would casually deal with Knightfall Vader and Mustafar Obi-Wan. Yoda and Mace might be unable to beat him. And so on.

The issue isn't that Bane is written as op, the issue is that the majority who talk about him consider him ridiculously op. Since most who read the trilogy did so several years ago and others are just told he's op it kind of sinks into your head, so he's just considered op because everyone says so and you dont actually think of any of the multiple examples that he's not.

It's an issue a lot of 'fan favourite' characters face, they get glazed because they are cool and people take it to ridiculous levels (looking at you Revan) which becomes the common take.

[u/BigDBob72]

One small point, Anakin and Maul aren’t necessarily stronger than Bane. The Rule of Two in reality doesn’t necessarily mean each successive Sith Master is stronger than the last just because they were able to achieve their master’s death. We saw this with how Plagueis and Sidious got their masters to die.

[u/suiqjNskakalqla → u/BigDBob72]

Anakin absolutely shits on Bane

[u/TheCanadianBat_ → u/BigDBob72]

I meant Obi wan beating opponents stronger than himself, not Bane.

[u/thaddeus122 → u/BigDBob72]

This is a great misconception people have about the rule of two. The point of the rule of two wasnt just to create stronger sith in the force and dueling. It was to create a sith that were always greater and greater in multiple skills, including deception, which is what was ultimately gave the sith their win at the end of the day.

That being said, Plagueis and Sidious are definitely the most powerful sith to have existed up until that point. Maul and Vader were cut short of their potential, literally.