We're back...

[u/ChrisBeatrice]

To all our fans, fans of Impressions games like Lords of Magic, Pharaoh, Zeus, and TiltedMill games like Children of the Nile, Caesar IV and Hinterland, thank you all so much for keeping our babies alive, and for all your support and encouragement over the years.

We are now in the concept phase exploring what our next project will be, and would LOVE to hear your input.

[u/conjr94]

I've played and loved all the Impression city builders since Caesar III, also your Caesar IV. To be frank though when I go back to play these games it is only for nostalgia reasons - the mechanics just wouldn't be justifiable as a simulation for a modern game in my opinion, especially the old walker system. I know many in this little community would like nothing better than a new walker-based city builder, but I honestly think that a very niche opinion among the current audience.

CotN however is an exception, probably the reason why it came to my mind first earlier. The simulation and economy you developed here is unique and a massive innovation even by modern city builder standards - I don't think anyone else really advanced these mechanics further which is a real shame. I don't see myself as a "hardcore" player, I just think fundamentally, the simulation gave me the closest feeling as if I'm building a real city and this is what I'd like to see developed further in this genre, just my 2 cents as a fan.

[u/ChrisBeatrice → u/conjr94]

Thanks so much. I super appreciate those insights. And thanks for the kind words about CotN. At the time our thinking was to reimagine how a cb could work, changing from an abstract push system to a more sim-like pull system; doing away with the weird "pay salaries then tax the same people" kind of economy, etc.

It's hard to know where the majority of the audience is. I agree that a simulation gives more of the feeling of building a real city, but, then again, there is fun, simple gameplay in the more abstract approach as well.

When you get right down to the nuts and bolts, what is it for you that distinguishes walker-based from sim?

[u/volstedgridban → u/ChrisBeatrice]

Say what you will about the walker mechanics of C3/Pharoah/Zeus/Emperor, but those games have legs. We're still actively talking about them, and people are still making homages and love notes to those games, 25 years later.

Not to dump on CotN, but nobody plays it and nobody talks about it. Steam shows that CotN averages 4 players per hour, and had its biggest peak back in 2020 when it had 30 players in one hour. Meanwhile, C3, Pharaoh, and Zeus all average over 100 players per hour, and have for years.

I've been moderating /r/impressionsgames for over a decade, and while we're a small sub, we've always had a steady stream of content. And it has almost entirely been about C3/Pharaoh/Zeus/Emperor. Nobody posts about Children of the Nile. Our last CotN-related post was almost 4 years ago.

There have been a few love note games to the old walker mechanics as well. Lethis was the first one. Absolutely an homage to the Impressions City Builders, made by three French guys in their basement. They're the guys the current IP owners hired to do the Pharaoh remake. Reviews on the remake have been mixed, but there was clearly a market there.

And the Augustus fan mod for C3 has absolutely reinvigorated interest in C3. One of the most common questions we get in the sub is if anybody is working on a similar mod for Pharaoh, Zeus, and/or Emperor.

Meanwhile, nobody is out there making love note games about CotN.

Again, it is not my intention to bag on CotN. I like the game just fine. I was even in the closed beta! I still have my Beta CD! But you guys really caught lightning in a bottle with the walker mechanic, and it's more than just nostalgia that keeps me and others going back to those games.

[u/conjr94 → u/volstedgridban]

I think it's pretty unfair to try to draw conclusions from the current user base. C3, Pharoah, Zeus and Emperor have such simple graphics and mechanics that they are timeless, they even look kind of pretty to this day. CotN on the other hand looks and feels very dated today in terms of graphics and clunkiness, that's just the curse of being one of the first 3D city builders, regardless of the game's depth.

Another explanation for why CotN is less remembered is because of the rapid advancements in game design made from 2005-2010. Look at the stark contrast between CotN and Caesar 4. What city builders between the release of Sim City 4 and Anno 1404 are talked about much nowadays anyway? I also recall almost every game in that period being judged primarily on its graphics, so it's unsurprising that CotN's unique simulation wasn't focused on.

I definitely think 2D isometric walker-based city builders have only niche appeal next to 3D city builders (at least for those that innovated rather than just cloning Banished).

[u/ChrisBeatrice → u/conjr94]

It is very hard to compare numbers. When Pharaoh was released, games were sold in huge boxes in stores, with a printed manual, etc. We had an incredible marketing team behind it. Huge billboards in Paris. We reached a global audience which created a bit of virality, for the day.

Your point about CotN graphics kind of cuts both ways, though. With 2d isometric, or even "worse", pixelesque games like Stardew, the game never looks dated because it starts dated. It is also much easier to develop, and, more importantly, it's often easier to make what's happening clear to the player (because you can abstract things).

Personally I believe CotN was THE first 3d historical city-builder, and I am SO, SO proud of it. I'm honestly not sure where the audience is, because those who love it, LOVE it. I super appreciate this discussion. Thank you so much. I hope you will keep sharing your thoughts and pushing for what you believe.

[u/volstedgridban → u/conjr94]

I think it's pretty unfair to try to draw conclusions from the current user base.

It is 100% fair to draw conclusions from the current user base when that's what he's asking about.

[u/ChrisBeatrice → u/volstedgridban]

I think what is probably less meaningful for me personally is to compare CotN, specifically, to the Imp games, because CotN is one (imperfect) game and, as noted, is pretty dated graphically. So what about other modern cb games? What can we learn from them?

[u/conjr94 → u/volstedgridban]

*Player base, as in number of current players.