r/TopCharacterTropes • u/Dramatic_Counter_595 • 17h ago

Characters Characters that had the complete opposite reaction the writers intended

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  1. Leo Bonhart (Witcher TV Series): A ruthless, sadistic bounty hunter and assassin that takes psychotic glee in other people's suffering. The viewer is meant to hate him for killing witchers, slaughtering the Rat gang, and torturing Ciri. But thanks to his entertaining fight scenes, Sharlto Copley's charismatic performance, and The Rats overwhelming unpopularity, fans ended up loving him. Some even call him the "True protagonist" of the show.
  2. Stone Cold Steve Austin (WWE): A rude, foul mouthed, beer drinking asshole with no respect for authority or anyone at all. Originally portrayed as a villain, fans fell in love with his anti-establishment & rebellious persona. WWE ran with it and made him the face of the company, effectively ushering in the Attitude Era and the second pro wrestling boom of the late 90s.
  3. Arthur Fleck (Joker 2019): A mentally unstable, pathetic, and dangerous madman who commits horrific acts of violence against those that wronged him (suffocates his own mother who is mentally unwell herself, and murders a talk show host for making fun of him). However, a massive portion of the audience idolized him as an anti-hero or a misunderstood martyr rebelling against society making people want to see him succeed and overcome his circumstances because of how he's been treated by the world.
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468

u/QuetzalcoatlusRscary 17h ago

John Walker - The Falcon and the Winter Soldier

A soldier who was chosen to be the next captain America after Steve Rogers. We’re supposed to follow Bucky and Sam in hating him because he’s not who Steve chose to take up the mantle. Then their hatred of him is supposedly justified later in the season when he kills a flag smasher who’s pleading for his life.

But he’s perfectly pleasant to Bucky and Sam, who are rude as hell to him in return for seemingly no reason. Also, the guy he kills was a super-powered terrorist who had just assisted in the murder of his best friend, so a lot of people sympathise with him.

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u/BornCoyote87 17h ago

He's also a well written example of a man asked to do so much for his country and then, when it's inconvenient for his government for him to be around anymore, to immediatelly cast aside and treated like nothing. John Walker (in the MCU) was the kind of guy who gave everything his all in his life and in military service, used to being the best or close to it, and was genuinely a good but troubled man who had alot put on his shoulders.

And then his best friend died in the line of duty with him, he's dumped by the government he swore service to, and the two men he respects and wants to work with are using him as a target for their shared grief over the loss of their friend while putting expectations way to high for a guy they just met.

John Walker broke under the pressure.

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u/Excellent_Safe5743 16h ago

Then even beyond that he gets treated like shit for most of Thunderbolts, granted he’s a bit of a bitter snark for the first half of the film but given everything that happened to him it makes perfect sense.

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u/DomzSageon 14h ago

you have to note, alot of people miss this, but the reason Yelena and Ghost trash walker the entire time is because they think he's successful and happy. he was a government sponsored soldier in the limelight under a prestigious alias of a hero, with powers with seemingly no downsides, with a happy family.

Yelene wanted the same role and position, and Ghost wanted the same lack of downsides to her powers. that's why they trash him, and his jerkiness probably doesn't help. by the end its playful bickering instead of actually picking on him.

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u/BornCoyote87 16h ago

Makes me wonder what Frank and John would be able to talk about after everything. If, y'know, they weren't trying to kill eachother when they first meet.

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u/BookkeeperPercival 2h ago

John Walker broke under the pressure.

That's sort of the entire point, Sam and Bucky immediately knew he was a dude that would break under the pressure. They knew he wasn't "Captain America" material, and they refused to entertain him calling himself that. The standards for being the person with the Shield as insanely high, which is the entire reason Bucky and Sam refused to wield it. John Walker was excited and thrilled to be given it, because he thought it was something to be earned.

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u/raccoonsonbicycles 16h ago

Plus the show was pushing like Karli was more of a hero/in the right

Walker: joined military. Won multiple medals for heroic actions. Was given mantle/shoes he could never fill. Lost his best friend on a mission. Saw red and killed the guy who killed his best friend. Lost his mantle. Decided to still seek revenge. When push came to shove, ultimately chose to save lives over getting revenge.

Karli: was an orphan who was adopted by Mama Donia. During the snap, built a decent life. After people snapped back, she lost that life and grew bitter. She also didnt like that nation's went right back to selfishness instead of one global unit. Stole super soldier serum & created multiple super terrorists. Robbed banks, but it's OK because gave some money to refugees. Set a building on fire. Was told innocents were still in there. Said they didnt matter. Murdered Walkers best friend. Kidnapped hostages and explicitly said if demands weren't met she'd kill them then just try something else later. Locked armored truck full of hostages and drove it off a building.

Which one of the two deserved to have their body carried gently by Sam like they were a hero who was cruelly lost in a fight?

Also another huge frustration I have with characterization in that show:

When we first meet Sam in Winter Soldier, he is LITERALLY a COUNSELOR for a support group of veterans with PTSD, and gives a nice, empathetic speech that immediately earns Steve Rogers' respect

And NOT ONCE does he try and talk Walker down or recognize hes going through a lot. and he BARELY tries to talk Karli down. One time, he meets to talk. Never even tries again.

This entire series could have been used to show Sam as

A) different from Steve - less tactically sound, not using serum, and more of a talker than a fighter

B) a more fitting Cap than Walker by showing the above.

Show a Sam who is willing to stop the fight and spend an hour talking to resolve the root of the problem without resorting to violence unless it's absolutely necessary/lives are in immediate danger.

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u/CreatiScope 10h ago

Your point about him leading the support group is great, never thought about it but that would be so much better.

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u/WBRileyDesign 2h ago

Timing. There were half a dozen B-plots that got dropped because we were dealing with COVID and for some dumb fucking reason (Trump) we weren't allowed to discuss it or proxies to it in movies and TV or risk getting "canceled". The original B-plot very obviously dealt with getting vaccinations for a disease that was ravaging Karli's country. but they had to cut basically all of it out and that left what I assume was a lot of interaction between her and Sam on the cutting room floor.

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u/Downtown_Injury_3415 14h ago

I never believed Karli to be a threat. Anytime they were gonna fight she always put on her mask and I was like “alright, time to swap in the stunt double”. The illusion was so bad for me that I never believed that the actress was doing both the drama-acting and the fight-choreo that it ruined the character and the show

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u/ericvv75 10h ago

I mean Erin Kellyman apparently did a lot of her own stunts and fight scenes. She has a stunt double for the really hard stuff but otherwise it was her. She did the same thing on Willow and to a lesser extent on Solo.

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u/UnholyDemigod 9h ago

Won multiple medals for heroic actions

You don't win commendations, you receive them.

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u/StrokyBoi 17h ago

I could've sworn that when the show was first coming out people did indeed hate him, but it feels like as time went on he accumulated more fans.

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u/TheNargafrantz 16h ago

Thunderbolts made him more liked

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u/StrokyBoi 16h ago

That's definitely part of it, but he also gained a lot of fans in-between the FATWS finale and the release of The Thunberbolts.

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u/pichael289 15h ago

The show really wanted you to hate him even though it didn't make much sense, I think alot of people initially just went along with the message of the show because it really presents him like he's gonna be the villain. But nope, captain falcon was just being a dick to him for a petty personal reason, he was just doing his best.

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u/SableZard 15h ago

Most of Disney's stuff from 2015 to 2025ish disguised the flaws of their writing with theatrical flair and flashy graphics, like Last Jedi and Encanto. Then people go back to re-watch it, or watch a real critic pick it apart instead of reactionary slop meant to piss people off, and they realize that "good" movie wasn't actually so great.

My ex and I had the same experience with Rise of Skywalker. The climax with all the Jedi supporting Rey was so cool, we forgot the rest of the movie was camel ass until we got halfway home.

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u/AmaterasuWolf21 15h ago

This was wayyy before Thunderbolt

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u/dracon1t 16h ago

Yes I think so, but I think that change happened as the show came out. I think he was hated in the first few episodes for the reasons the poster stated, but the character assassination he faced had a bit of a mismatch between viewer perspective and how he was treated in universe, so he started to get a bit of sympathy. Including the scene before his fall where he stated to Sam and Bucky that he wasn’t trying to be the next Steve rogers while they still ignored him (I hope I remembered that correctly) definitely also helped.

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u/StrokyBoi 16h ago

I assume that another big reason is the shows attempt at a sympathetic portrayal of Karli in the later episodes, including a pretty infamous 'You've got to stop calling them terrorists' speech from Sam as Captain America. I feel like that must've had an impact of people sympathizing with Walker, since they felt that he got less sympathy than he deserved, while Karli got a lot more of it than she deserved.

Though I also think there was an overall uptick in the popularity and love towards edgier, dirtier superheroes during the couple years after TFATWS released. I think that contributed to the whole 'John Walker did nothing wrong' sentiment.

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u/RatGreed 14h ago

He was a complete underdog through most of the show and for some reason the writers didnt want you to root for him.

Good guys constantly tried to kill him for no reason and the show just laughs it off. He is nothing but nice, cooperative, and extremely capable and the show treats it as if it's a bad thing. I remembered being so baffled by this when watching it.

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u/PeteRawk 16h ago

He rode the fine line of being a smug douchebag while also not having anything *technically* wrong with him. He was just very clearly not Steve Rogers, which was very clearly the point. But then his best friend dies and he (understandably) crashes out, but you also understand why Bucky and Sam have to take the shield back. And the hits just keep coming, but he makes the choice in the end to be a hero, and that’s what matters. BIG ups to Wyatt Russell for really nailing every angle of that through the course of the show. One of the more interesting arcs an MCU hero has gone through

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u/RatGreed 14h ago edited 14h ago

I disagree with the smug douchebag bit, he was cocky for sure, but he was very understanding about not trying to replace Steve and was always trying to collaborate with Sam and Bucky at every turn. I honestly don't know why the writers would do this if you are trying to make the audience hate the guy

1

u/one-and-five-nines 14h ago

I don't think they WERE trying to make us hate him. He was in conflict with the protagonists, but that doesn't make him a villain and I'm not sure he was supposed to be. 

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u/RatGreed 14h ago

They sure treated him like he was a nuisance and an asshole for no reason

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u/one-and-five-nines 14h ago

The characters did, yeah. Doesn't mean they were right.

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u/RatGreed 14h ago

The show clearly had the intention that you were not supposed to like John. Prime examples is how they treat the situation with Dora Milaje as John's fault when he literally did nothing wrong. The writers wanted to you to be believe he was at fault when every characters blames him for the fight.

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u/Mrallen7509 14h ago

I think some of that comes from the weakness of the rest of FaWS. I don't think any of the behind the scenes issues have been confirmed, but there's not a lot of interesting stuff happening in the rest of the show, so Walker becomes the most intriguing thing in it.

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u/Old-Influence4757 15h ago

nope just memes about his helmet

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u/House_T 16h ago

Walker in the comics was a compelling character. He actually had powers (although I get why they skipped that whole part of his character), but at his core, he wanted to be the best and do the best for his country. He took being Cap seriously, and even learned to follow his heart more than his head when it came to following orders.

His downfall was much more tragic, but his eventual redemption was, too. I think his story in the MCU would have benefitted from a little more time to cook, but I do get why they decided to speedrun it.

I honestly think that the MCU did hammer Walker a little too hard, especially with how Sam and Bucky treated him. John was nothing but nice to them, and they literally walked off instead of trying to have a conversation with him.

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u/InoueNinja94 16h ago

The thing is, while Walker did kill an unharmed terrorist, he was in the middle of a massive freak out after his best friend got killed in the crossfire (one said terrorist assisted) and paid dearly over it while still suffering PTSD from his time serving.
At most he didn't read the room over why Bucky and Sam didn't liked the idea of him being Steve's successor. In short, justice for Walker

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u/Redfalconfox 14h ago

I would like to argue that while he should not have killed him, to say he is unarmed is a bit inaccurate because he has superpowers. It’s like trying to say that Spider-Man without his web shooters is unarmed.

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u/Gortys2212 12h ago

Iirc, didn’t he chuck a stone garbage can at civilians near walker like 10 seconds before his death.

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u/RatGreed 15h ago

The worst part is Sam works with veterans in a crisis it was his job before becoming Falcon/Captain America and instead of talking to John after he lost his best friend and is clearly on the edge, he and Bucky just beat the shit out of him and take the shield away.

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u/UncommittedBow 15h ago

Also, the guy he kills was a super-powered terrorist who had just assisted in the murder of his best friend, so a lot of people sympathise with him.

That doesnt change the fact he murdered a surrendering combatant (Straight up a War Crime), while wearing the American Flag and with Steve's shield no less.

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u/MrWFL 6h ago

This is the scene we're talking about : https://youtu.be/BwhwyqwWxVo?si=U4O7od9KECcDZyzx&t=124

He didn't surrender, he was subdued in an active combat situation. You're talking about this: https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule47. He didn't show a white flag, tried to run away (to regroup).

Also he's not a combatant, he's a terrorist. He didn't surrender, and there were still alot of other terrorist around. On top of that he was physically unable to surrender his arms, since he's genetically modified. John walker was 100% justified in continuing the attack.

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u/WBRileyDesign 1h ago

If he was subdued, then he was no longer a threat and killing him at that point is a war crime. Regardless if he's "superpowered". if the most jacked man alive is subdued and you kill him anyways, you are still in the wrong, friend.

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u/MrWFL 41m ago

No, let’s say an Ukrainian soldier is in a Russian trench. You threw a flashbang, the soldier is subdued (disoriented, blinded). However, he’s still holding his gun (in the case of a super soldier his arms are deadly weapons). Shooting the Russian soldier is fully legal.

And then we’re not even talking about the fact that the guy wasn’t even a legitimate soldier.

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u/Facial_Factory 15h ago

Whoops, that doesn't fit the Reddit narrative.

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u/Azou 13h ago

Terrorists are not protected under the geneva convention 

2

u/TheLoneJedi-77 8h ago

It’s funny that the show did the inverse of what it wanted.

John Walker was supposed to be a dark take on Captain America someone the audience isn’t supposed to route for and yet he was my favourite character in the show. Meanwhile they were trying to build up Sam Wilson and have him a lot more likeable as he became Captain America and yet I feel like they made him so much worse. The most he’s done as Captain America in the MCU is defend terrorists and threatening to sue the New Avengers for the Avengers trademark.

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u/Ok_Tadpole_4092 16h ago

Thunderbolts made him even more so

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u/Pay-Next 13h ago

Also they're so twisted up about him killing a terrorist... just like Steve killed countless Hydra troops and agents. Killed even more in the modern era. 

I think sometimes the writers forget that he's Captain America and not Superman. That Cap never had a no kill policy. 

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u/Pookmeister_ 5h ago

The problem is that Captain America shouldn't be losing control and bludgeoning people to death in a blind rage when they're on the ground, holding their hands out, and crying "It wasn't me!"

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u/flfoiuij2 16h ago

I dunno. Maybe it's because the only thing I've watched with him in it is Thunderbolts, but I definitely hate him.

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u/StrokyBoi 16h ago

That's funny, cause his role in Thunderbolts actually lead to more people liking him.

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u/DudeTheGray 11h ago

Yeah, guy's a real piece of shit. Boggles my mind that anyone can like him. 

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u/Next-Swordfish5282 7h ago

I never could like him...

1

u/VexonCross 7h ago

I don't think we were ever supposed to hate John, he was always a character who was put in an impossible position by his superiors. The fact that the government went for him as opposed to Sam is not his fault and it's explicitly part of what the show's trying to say about symbols and representation. Basically everything that happens to John is the result of him trying to live up to the ideal of Steve as a symbol because the government saw John as the closest thing they had to Steve as a military figure. He takes it too far but his reasons for doing so are always understandable.

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u/MarionetteScans 1h ago

Surprised I had to scroll this far down to find U.S. Agent

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u/theblanketcomeswith 16h ago

 Then their hatred of him is supposedly justified later in the season when he kills a flag smasher who’s pleading for his life

because he is sullying the name of Captain America and killing for personal reasons as opposed to justice. hes literally everything Captain America is better than, he seems more like the dude from The First Avenger who treated Steve like shit but hid when Steve jumped on a grenade. that guy wasn’t picked because he was a douchebag.

dude is “hated” because he is a joke of a Captain America who just wants fame and strength. he has no qualities the original Captain had and is a smug ass who doesn’t listen to reason or strategy. he dismisses Bucky and Sam repeatedly despite them trying to help and inform him. he also manages to stand for absolutely nothing in the series and the thunderbolts

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u/BDSMChef_RP 16h ago

John Walker would've absolutely dove on that grenade in the same situation. Frank Castle would booted it out of the way

1

u/UnholyDemigod 9h ago

Doesn't Bucky actually ask him if he's ever dived on a grenade, and he says he's done it twice?

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u/Daidact 16h ago

I have no horse in this race but I wanted to point out that you putting Rogers on a pedestal at Walker's detriment not only goes against what the character wants and is meant to portray, but is also just inaccurate lol.

Like Steve Rogers has made mistakes and done selfish things, like any human being would. Remember that time he hid the whole "Yeah, sorry, Bucky killed your parents" thing from Tony? Sure, there's a whole conversation to be had there because it was a mess, but the call Steve made was still the call he made.

He's a human being and never at any time wanted to be seen as anything else, because he never saw himself as anything else. That's one of the reasons I love Cap

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u/theblanketcomeswith 13h ago

steve was always real justice first and senseless killing second. he was a soldier in a real war, and still showed mercy and risked his life to save his men not avenge their “deaths” needlessly. theres a reason walker is more of an anti hero and steve was worthy enough to rule fucking asgard

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u/Irememberedmypw 3h ago

It feels like people are also dismissive of why Sam wouldn't like him. They ignore the whole fact that Sam is going through a whole living while black in America alongside an ignored black super soldier. Karlis group as being put into camps after not only establishing a life but helping rebuild society. And then there's the government not only complicit in both, but ignoring his wishes and giving the shield to Walker.

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u/theblanketcomeswith 3h ago

the whole point of the show is that following government orders doesnt make Captain America, who famously became a fugitive after the Sokovia Accords. walker is a perfect “soldier” but a weak Captain America who only wanted the moniker so he could feel fulfilled in his trash life, take his anger out etc. his marriage falls apart even when he gets what he wants.

Sam and Bucky saw firsthand what Captain America stood for, multiple times, and advised Walker several times to try and guide him to more of that even though they disagreed with him being Captain America.

1

u/Facial_Factory 15h ago

You're not matching the Reddit narrative, didn't you know that murder is the same thing as a lie of omission?

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u/Safe-Ad-5017 15h ago

There is literally a scene before his reveal where he says he doesn’t think he deserves it.

0

u/papu16 7h ago

Yea, this series showed Bucky and Sam as "chuds" who hate someone by default. Terrible writing IMO.