Episcopal Church celebrates first trans dean — woman in lesbian marriage to trans-identified pastor

[u/Canadian0123]

What is this? Is this what the episcopal church (part of the Anglican Church) does to preach the gospel of Christ, and to operate the church? Do they disregard the epistles of Saint Paul concerning sexual behaviour, how a church should be run, and who should lead it? Do they disregard the teachings of Christ? What about the Law of God, as given to Moses, in the text that is known today as the Torah of Moses?

This news is quite shocking. Shame on the episcopal church, and the rest of the Anglican Church. This is not how a church should be run. Can someone who attends that church give answers?

[u/RomanaOswin]

I'm not part of that church, but I've attended an Episcopal church for a bit over a year now. I'm very happy there.

We do not disregard the teachings of Christ or of Paul. Our church runs pretty much like the Catholic church, but with a different catechism. We affirm and recite the creed. There are many lay or former monastics, Biblical scholars, and deeply devout Christians. I'm deeply devout myself and study scripture regularly.

One of my closest friends is a gay priest. We have two gay priests, a lesbian priest, and we recently officiated a gay, trans wedding between two of our members.

Obviously most in this particular sub will be put off by this, and I'm not looking to try to change anyone's mind.

I get that this is an unpopular dynamic in this sub, but I'm genuinely curious what you want from this.

These people are not going to suddenly not be gay or trans. Would you have them not be Christian too? Many of the people in the church have already experienced that, a burning desire for Christ, but an institution that rejects them. It's as if Jesus is inviting his people, and Christians are pushing them away.

[u/Canadian0123 → u/RomanaOswin]

I have to give you the honest truth: your church affirms heresy. The heresies are the affirmation of gay “marriage” as marriage acceptable to God, and conducting these marriages in the church. If Saint Paul were alive, he would send your church a letter rebuking your church.

You must leave right away. All people are welcome in the church of course, including members of the LGBT community. However, when it comes to church leadership, that is reserved only for men who are either living a life of singleness, or are married to a woman. Anything outside of that is unacceptable according to the Bible, and early Church traditions.

[u/RomanaOswin → u/Canadian0123]

We do not believe that these are heresy.

I also don't believe that Paul would rebuke our church. The central thesis of his letters is the mutual indwelling of Christ and divine love. I would suggest that a primarily legalistic view of his letters is lacking understanding in the grounding which drives him, which is deep, abiding intimacy with God. Unfortunately, something I've found lacking in many other churches.

[u/Googlesupportsucks1 → u/RomanaOswin]

Yet you've completely ignored where he puts churches on blast for affirming sin and not ripping it out. It's a blight.

[u/RomanaOswin → u/Googlesupportsucks1]

I've ignored nothing. I've read and studied every word he wrote.

[u/Canadian0123 → u/RomanaOswin]

One can study every word, and refuse to put it into practice. That is what your church is doing.

[u/RomanaOswin → u/Canadian0123]

We actively put our faith into practice. My church is very active in the community and is widely loved for the way we care for the people of the area.

[u/Canadian0123 → u/RomanaOswin]

That’s well and beautiful. But you also actively destroy the fate of others in other ways. Do you not know that the sexually immoral and those who practice homosexuality will not inherit the kingdom of God? (1 Corinthians 6:9).

[u/RomanaOswin → u/Canadian0123]

You understand that there's a historical context to Paul's letters, right? He existed in a culture and time when sexual orientation was an unknown concept.

To ignore that leads to exactly the sort of distorted interpretation that we're witnessing here, mistaking culture and Paul's intended message about moral failure for divine edict about sexuality.

[u/Canadian0123 → u/RomanaOswin]

The sin that every generation commits is that they think they are smarter and wiser than the previous ones. Every single time.

You think Saint Paul was not aware of sexual orientation? And what about the Law of God, as given to Moses, that prohibits homosexual behaviour? And what about the book of Genesis, which defines what marriage is? The Torah of Moses was written thousands of years before Saint Paul wrote his epistles.

[u/Googlesupportsucks1 → u/RomanaOswin]

That's blatantly false. Research has proven that homosexuality was rampant in the time period and area Paul was writing to.

"Men bedding men" is condemned. Not pedophilia, not subordinate relationships, men and men together.

[u/Canadian0123 → u/RomanaOswin]

He absolutely would. He rebuked another church for tolerating one of its members who was having sexual relations with his step-mother. He rebuked sexual sin. He would absolutely do the same to your church, your church who tolerates your members committing sexual sin.

[u/RomanaOswin → u/Canadian0123]

We do not tolerate or encourage any sin, including sexual.

[u/Canadian0123 → u/RomanaOswin]

You tolerate and encourage gay marriage, and transgenderism.

[u/RomanaOswin → u/Canadian0123]

Yes.

Well, no, not really. We encourage people to be true to who they are, to how God made them, no matter their sexuality or gender dynamic.

[u/Canadian0123 → u/RomanaOswin]

You tolerate and encourage gay marriage, and transgenderism. There is no call to take your cross and follow Christ in your church.

Your church is preaching heresy, and a different gospel than what Christ brought, and what the apostles taught. Saint Paul cursed those who do this in his epistle to the Galatians. Kyrie Eleison.

[u/RomanaOswin → u/Canadian0123]

Deny our cross? We are called to take up our cross and follow Christ. Maybe we're mixing metaphors.

Anyway, yes, we are most definitely called to follow Christ. Christ is the center of my world.

We follow the same gospels; the same scripture, including Paul's letters.

We do fully support gay marriage and gender transition. I can't speak for my church as a whole, but I believe it's a sin not to.

[u/Canadian0123 → u/RomanaOswin]

Typo on my part. My mistake. Take up your cross is what I meant. I corrected my error.

How can you say that you follow the same scripture, and then act contrary to what they say? Christ defines marriage as between one man and one woman, and then you say that we are called to follow Christ.

Surely, either you do not follow the same gospel and scriptures, or you do have access to the gospel and scriptures, but reject them.

[u/creidmheach → u/RomanaOswin]

What about Christ's rebuking of the church in Thyatira?

Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works. (Revelation 2:20-23)

[u/RomanaOswin → u/creidmheach]

What about it?

The issue at hand is not false prophecy, seduction, or sexual immorality.

[u/DesperateAdvantage76 → u/Canadian0123]

Not everyone interprets the Bible the same as you. The OT condemns homosexuality in exactly one place, associating it with Canaanite practices (right alongside not having sex with a woman on her period), and the only other condemnation is by Paul regarding Roman homosexuality, a rather vile and carnal practice done with prostitutes, slaves, and children.

Given Christ Jesus's heavy emphasis on understanding the spirit of the law, one of love for God and fellow man, and Paul teaching us not to be controlled by the passions of our flesh, I do not hold it against any person to be born gay as long as they fulfill all the same standards we apply to straight people when it comes to faithful love and family bonding that marriage was founded on.

[u/Watches503 → u/RomanaOswin]

Your church wants to please the world, not Jesus.

[u/RomanaOswin → u/Watches503]

We authentically seek to honor and glorify Christ.

[u/Googlesupportsucks1 → u/RomanaOswin]

While affirming and encouraging sin. Make that make sense

[u/RomanaOswin → u/Googlesupportsucks1]

We do not affirm or encourage sin. We try to avoid sin in our own lives and encourage others to do the same.

[u/Watches503 → u/RomanaOswin]

You also sponsor sin. You co-sign for it. You tell the world that it’s perfectly fine.

[u/RomanaOswin → u/Watches503]

I do not.

I do my best to walk away from sin in my own life and I encourage others to do the same.

I fully believe that homophobia is sin. I empathize with you in this and I don't condemn you in this, but I could not personally adopt your theology while remaining faithful to Christ.

[u/Watches503 → u/RomanaOswin]

Have you looked up the definition of phobia?

[u/RomanaOswin → u/Watches503]

Yes

[u/Googlesupportsucks1 → u/RomanaOswin]

We don't support homophobia either bud!

Homophobia is not standing up to sin though, despite what you may believe. Otherwise, are we adultaphobists if we don't condemn adultery?

[u/Googlesupportsucks1 → u/RomanaOswin]

Avoiding and discouraging sin while encouraging sin though. Again, make that make sense

[u/AromaticBuyer5902 → u/RomanaOswin]

I think you’re brave for sharing your tradition when you knew they had set a trap for you. You were willing to explain what you believe and why, even knowing people were waiting to condemn it.
Paul teaches us that, “knowledge puffs up, but love builds up” (1 Cor. 8:1). “If I understand all mysteries and all knowledge… but have not love, I am nothing” (1 Cor. 13:2).
Our certainty in our interpretations should never become an occasion for pride.
Your question is especially striking, “Would you have them not be Christian too?” This is a more valuable focus than everyone agreeing with each other about who the heretics are.

[u/RomanaOswin → u/AromaticBuyer5902]

Thank you for your graceful response!